Can Puppies Be Refused Challenge?

[Sexton Maremmas]

G'day,

My 11mth old Maremma bitch was refused her challenge because the judge said "her legs were everywhere."

I recorded the puppy in the ring, and she was a little bit excited, trying feebly to reach the handler's bait as she ran. [Yes, we have ensured a stricter control on bait quantity and location from now on.] But she is a puppy, and it was a cool evening show, which always seems to 'frisk' up the dogs, perhaps especially those of cool climate breeds.

She has earned 87 points in the last six months, was BOB in the Perth Royal Show, and has even beaten a magnificent full grown male (close relative) in the ring recently.

Of course I recognise that the judge must base her decisions only on the dog's performance in the ring at the time, but the puppy was just a little excited, and the judge asked, and was answered twice, the dog's age. She had also examined the puppy's body very thoroughly, concentrating on her hips and rear legs. She even checked under the paws, presumably to see if the hair had been trimmed, although that is not a requirement for Maremmas. Any excess hair underfoot is probably a blessing for a Maremma out in the bush, but as we have raised her to be a family guardian, living in suburbia, we do trim her paws lightly anyway.

The point being that the judge knew there was nothing wrong with the puppy's joints, proportions, or stance.

Shouldn't she have at least asked for a "straight away and back" if she genuinely believed she needed to see the puppy's gait better?

Finally, there seemed to be a lot of agreement from the breeders around about, that a puppy was recognised as still in training and could not be refused simply for "imperfect form" in the ring.

Can anyone please confirm the guidelines relating to refusals and any specific allowances for the younger classes?

Thanks, Peter

[minimax]

sounds like this thread could be relevant for you?

[Allerzeit]

Any dog can be refused challenge, it's the judges opinion on the day of the dog that they judge on the day.

[Rebanne]

Finally, there seemed to be a lot of agreement from the breeders around about, that a puppy was recognised as still in training and could not be refused simply for "imperfect form" in the ring.

if the judge can't get a good idea of gait cause the dog was playing up too much then they are right to refuse a challange. Correct movement is very important for all dogs.

My 9 month old greyhound bitch was refused challenge in the depths of winter cause she ran around all bunched up, wouldn't stretch out at all properly. I agreed with the reason.

[mirawee]

That particular judge non-awarded at least 3 CCs that I am aware of on the weekend. Not all judges non-award.

[Aetherglow]

Some judges will be starting to get stricter on behaviour in the ring by 11 months of age, too. How bouncy was your puppy - could the judge see any decent gait at all? I had an occasion where the judge told me that I would have won a class had my girl not been bouncing around. Totally fair, in fact I thought the judge was extremely tolerant and had given us a second up and back to see if she could see true gait and outline instead of legs and head all over the place.

[mirawee]

Oh I also thought they checked under the paw to see a better view if the paw shape and in breeds that are meant to have profuse hair between the pads (which can be seen even if trimmed to neaten up the pads)

[mirawee]

We have gotten to the stage with international judges that we will try and make sure we enter an older dog even when at one stage the older dogs were semi-retired (and had been beaten by the younger dogs on occasion as our male hated showing so often didn't show brilliant expression). In this way we were less likely to have the whole breed non-awarded for a valid reason that only time could change and that the rest of the world didn't hear.

[Dogsfevr]

A judge can certainly refuse based on ring craft manners.

Puppies are puppies but at 11 months manners should be there & whether its a cool evening or not makes no difference.

Judges have a small window to evaluate each dog & if in that small window they are unable to make a sound decision then yes they may refuse .

If the dog was trying to get the bait then chances are the movement it showed wasn't very desirable at all as they generally throw there fronts around whilst looking that way .

I am gathering the judge had already moved the dog & it didn't behave so are you saying she should have asked for it to move again or was it never moved except for entering the ring .

[espinay2]

Looking at the paws was likely checking the paw shape (which is specified in the maremma standard). While having hands on the dog the judge is often measuring proportions etc (as per the standard). The judge can not know if there is something wrong with joints by feeling (that needs an X-ray) though you can get some idea of some issues when the dog moves. The judge can only judge the dog on the day and if the young dog was all over the place and throwing its legs around then that is what they will see and the judge has no way of knowing that is not the dogs normal gait. There are things that you can see on the move that you don't see when the dog is standing still so remember that what the judge sees is not what you see at other times but exactly what was presented to them (an immature dog with legs going every which way??) and it is on that basis they decide whether in theor opinion a dog is at that single point in time worthy of the title of champion. They don't have to behave perfectly, but at 11 months should be controlled enough to settle and move reasonably evenly regardless of weather so they can present themselves in a reasonably true way.

Edited January 21, 2013 by espinay2

[cowanbree]

I personally wish more judges would non award ccs. I don't expect perfection but they need to read what they are signing which is I consider this dog worthy of the title champion. If the judge can't see correct movement etc or the dog is not up to standard, they shouldn't award the challenge, it makes the title meaningless.

[Puppoochi]

I wish some judges would know the breed standard. My BIS show winning bitch, who was also No 1 Toy Poodle All Breeds 2012, was non awarded for having inverted lower K9s. And then I heard the judge boasted about non awarding my bitch. READ THE BREED STANDARD, before non awarding a dog. Some judges are to say the least not worth showing under.

[OSoSwift]

My dog was once put down a place in the lineup due to his up and back, the judge told me he was lovely put on the up and back his legs were going everywhere - which they were. More training and only an issue now if I rev him up too much and forget to ask him to steady up before we gait off.

[Salukifan]

Short answer - yes.

Very disheartening when it happens but the judge has to call it as they see it.

Good that you're onto the bait issue - i'd be getting it out of my hands completely.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Pockets]

I personally wish more judges would non award ccs. I don't expect perfection but they need to read what they are signing which is I consider this dog worthy of the title champion. If the judge can't see correct movement etc or the dog is not up to standard, they shouldn't award the challenge, it makes the title meaningless.

I agree, there are certainly dogs running around with the Grand Champ Title and now the Supreme Champ title, that are very poor examples of their breed

[mirawee]

I agree, there are certainly dogs running around with the Grand Champ Title and now the Supreme Champ title, that are very poor examples of their breed

How do poor examples of a breed get the Group or Show wins though? That is in judges training as they have to choose to put them through not just choose if they withhold or not if it is a single entry breed. I would have thought needing to have x many judges award Group should stop this happening

[Pockets]

Quite easily, face judging....favour judging

I don't show week in and week out, bur am quite discusted to see what some judges put up as Best of Breed in my breed.

[SparkyTansy]

I've had an international judge who was a breed specialist for my breed, re-run my girl before awarding the challenge. She was approx 12 months, and still a little floppy on the move at times, and would take longer to settle into a nice movement. He remarked to me that she had lovely movement once she settles down. I think he knew that her movement was good but he had her move again before awarding her.. not all judges would want to do that and they don't have to. Judge on the day, their opinion, and their choice :)

[SwaY]

standards are based on an adult dog, they don't allow for growing puppies.