The Scandal Of Marketing Purebred Dogs

[Rascalmyshadow]

I never suggested selling puppies cheap! But $2500 for a dog from a breeder compared with $1000 from a pet store/byb is a huge difference.

I don't advocate pet stores selling pups at all and would quite happily see the lot closed for good. The general public doesn't always understand why it's a problem, especially when they are treated rudely by breeders but can quite comfortably go into a pet store/byb and have a good experience.

I believe in ethical breeding but have met quite a few so called registered breeders that do far from that. I will happily support the ones doing the right thing. If breeders aren't willing to get out there and educate the general public in a friendly and approachable manor then it's on their shoulders when Joe Blow goes elsewhere to obtain there new puppy.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Rascalmyshadow

[mita]

When wise consumers buy anything, they know it's not just a matter of price. It's a case of what a particular price buys. And that's something which the consumer wants.

What people want when they buy a puppy is a companion dog, for them and/or their family. And they have ideas about what it should look like & what kind of personality/behaviour it will show.

That's the kind of information which is badly needed to get to the pet-buying public, about purebred dogs. So the starting point should be.... telling the public how dogs are bred & raised by breeders,, so that those factors above are more likely in place.

No other group associated with breeding has solid evidence on their side.... that their puppies will tend to develop into being companionable.... than the small scale, non-commercial hobby breeder (who doesn't sell thro' pet stores). That is, the way most registered breeders operate.

BTW that's the reason I've bought purebred dogs from registered breeders who work that way. Always adopting retired showdogs from them. (Added factors there.... as the dogs have already proven they're socialised & have been exposed to both home & outside life).

And those breeders have been more interested in a good home.... than in asking for money. When I've believed they have every right to do so, for the quality of their care and outcomes. So I've had to make them take a good sum of money .... and, frankly, the lovely dogs in health, nature & looks I've got from them.... would be worth the world to me.

Edited July 4, 2013 by mita

[Rebanne]

I never suggested selling puppies cheap! But $2500 for a dog from a breeder compared with $1000 from a pet store/byb is a huge difference.

I don't advocate pet stores selling pups at all and would quite happily see the lot closed for good. The general public doesn't always understand why it's a problem, especially when they are treated rudely by breeders but can quite comfortably go into a pet store/byb and have a good experience.

I believe in ethical breeding but have met quite a few so called registered breeders that do far from that. I will happily support the ones doing the right thing. If breeders aren't willing to get out there and educate the general public in a friendly and approachable manor then it's on their shoulders when Joe Blow goes elsewhere to obtain there new puppy.

ah yes those awful rude breeders who ask questions like what sort of fences do you have, how many hours will puppy be on it's own, what other pets do you have etc. So much nicer to walk into a pet shop and say I'll take that one please and pull out your wallet and hand your credit card to a teenager.

[mita]

[

ah yes those awful rude breeders who ask questions like what sort of fences do you have, how many hours will puppy be on it's own, what other pets do you have etc.

One of the top things to tick on a checklist when looking for a breeder who fits the evidence....of raising dogs & puppies well.

This breeder susses out the conditions & care his/her puppy would get with someone who's applying to buy.

Shows this is a breeder who cares... it's foremost about his/her dogs. This care is likely to go with his/her dogs being lovingly bonded with humans.... as well as concern that health is a good as is humanly possible.

Anyone who sees such an attitude as a signal to hare off to a pet store... where the puppies are sourced from the total opposite situation.... has just failed an intelligent consumer test.

Edited July 4, 2013 by mita

[Wobbly]

The only way ethical registered breeders are going to be able to compete with byb's, pet shops and puppy farms is if they advertise where the public looks, keep their dogs at a reasonable price, make every potential puppy buyers experience a good one and mostly give the public good reasons for buying a purebred. The majority of customers I speak to go for xbreeds because they 'don't want a show dog' and don't see any need to spend big $$$ getting one from a breeder.

That's the thing though - educating the general public that the best way to get a pup whose health, temperament and structure can be predicted with any reliability is to go to a good breeder who understands their dog's genetic inheritance inside out and going far back enough to account for recessive traits that may appear. BYBs don't normally account for the reality of heritability further back than the parents, puppy mills most certainly don't.

The public doesn't understand I think that if they aren't going to a responsible breeder, they're at the mercy of pot luck, they might get lucky and get a sound healthy pup, but they might not. It's certainly a big risk to take. And I think this is one big reason we are seeing a lot of bad bites these days. Historically dogs were bred to work, culling was carried out, generally poor specimens didn't get bred, but nowadays, the largest market for dogs is the pet market, no culling occurs, breeding for money or misguided sentimentality (let her have one litter, because she's cute and we love her, and the kids should see the miracle of birth etc) is the order of the day, and it's becoming very problematic in terms of genepools.

Education is required. When dogs were working animals, the people breeding most of them had a good clue aboiut what they wanted and what they bred and why. Not so now, and it needs to be addressed pretty urgently IMO.

[Wobbly]

One of the top things to tick on a checklist when looking for a breeder who fits the evidence....of raising dogs & puppies well.

This breeder susses out the conditions & care his/her puppy would get with someone who's applying to buy.

Shows this is a breeder who cares... it's foremost about his/her dogs. This care is likely to go with his/her dogs being lovingly bonded with humans.... as well as concern that health is a good as is humanly possible.

Anyone who sees such an attitude as a signal to hare off to a pet store... where the puppies are sourced from the total opposite situation.... has just failed an intelligent consumer test.

I don't think they failed an intelligence test, so much as haven't been educated. There is a difference - it's not willful ignorance, it's just lack of access to knowledge. They take for granted that consumer law is protecting them when they buy form a shop, when it isn't. These are mums and dads buying from pet shops, they have a lot on their plate already, and they don't have enough education on the issue to realise the origin has such a huge impact on the quality of the dog. It's not that they're stupid, it's that the necessary information doesn't have an opportunity to penetrate their consciousness enough to make them ask the right questions.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Wobbly

[mita]

One of the top things to tick on a checklist when looking for a breeder who fits the evidence....of raising dogs & puppies well.

This breeder susses out the conditions & care his/her puppy would get with someone who's applying to buy.

Shows this is a breeder who cares... it's foremost about his/her dogs. This care is likely to go with his/her dogs being lovingly bonded with humans.... as well as concern that health is a good as is humanly possible.

Anyone who sees such an attitude as a signal to hare off to a pet store... where the puppies are sourced from the total opposite situation.... has just failed an intelligent consumer test.

I don't think they failed an intelligence test, so much as haven't been educated.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. It's lack of intelligent behaviour as a consumer. A consumer's first task is self-education. It's not passivity. The information is available. CHOICE even has a page on sourcing a dog, for consumers.

And it also shows another trait that doesn't go along with intelligent behaviour .... inability to put off immediate rewards in the interests of doing some thinking. Also known as low frustration tolerance. In fact, the breeder who's just been avoided for 'asking questions' should breathe a sigh of relief.

Edited July 4, 2013 by mita

[Rascalmyshadow]

I agree with a breeder getting as much info from a puppy buyer as possible, it is the same thing I do when letting go of a rescue dog, the problem is the approach many breeders take is unfriendly and often outright rude. Instead of using it as a chance to educate a potential owner they steer them away from breeders for good, the potential new puppy owner then goes on to tell their friends and the viscous cycle begins.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Rascalmyshadow

[Ruin Maniac]

If you want it to survive, and with current legislation that writes breeders off as criminals because people know no better (it's true! The number of people who give me the most horrified looks when I talk about purebreeders is astounding), you have to educate and be open to the public.

So many people don't know. Just recently someone at my university was talking to a group of students, myself included, about getting a new dog. He had a very, very specific temperament and set of qualities in mind (low shedding, active enough to go on bicycle rides, playful, intelligent and responsive to training, alert, needed to be suited to spending time alone during the day, etc). I was shot down IMMEDIATELY when I suggested finding a breeder. The kid was convinced to get a rescue (which isn't a bad thing at all, but these kids were talking like every rescue dog will fit that bill without fail and that all breeders are murderers for "stealing" homes from abandoned dogs). And this attitude is rife. I found myself defending purebreeding in a class where we were discussing the domestication and selective breeding of companion animals for specific purposes, practical or aesthetic. I was one of 2 people in a class of 25 who believed purebreeding (dogs) has any benefits at all. All the others thought it was an abhorrent and selfish practice. They do not know the difference between ethical purebreeders and puppy farmers. They think the intentions of purebreeders are to create pretty dogs to sell or show for a tonne of money and its very hard to convince them otherwise. Some cited their own "purebred" dogs with health problems as examples of how breeders don't give a s*** about their animals - shockingly, they couldn't give me a prefix when I asked about it. Legislation is reflecting these attitudes, and people are supporting it. Even if you're selling every litter before its born, that doesn't prevent well-meaning idiots from making and enforcing laws that will drive you into the ground.

I make every effort, every opportunity I get, to explain my stance on purebreeding and its benefits and I direct them to resources when they are open to it . But more needs to be done, by clubs, by individual breeders and owners if we want to shake off this stigma.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Ruin Maniac

[pebbles]

Years back when I was the Secretary for an AG Dog Show I organised one of the dog folk who weren't showing that day to man a table with basic info leaflets on pure bred dogs. It was amazing the number of people who were interested to find out all sorts of things. ie "Do you have to show a purebred"? "What does a registered breeder mean"? So many basic questions. Also teed up a few exhibitors for the more popular breeds to answer questions on their breed at set times of the day. This was advertised on a big board at the entrance to the dog area. Also phone contact numbers for anyone wanting further info after the show. Ran this for a few years and had good feedback from the public. Takes a bit of organising but well worth it.

[RubyBlue]

I agree with a breedtting as much info from a puppy buyer as possible, it is the same thing I do when letting go of a rescue dog, the problem is the approach many breeders takee is unfriendly and often outright rude. Instead of using it as a chance to educate a potential owner they steer them away from breeders for good, the potential new puppy owner then goes on to tell their friends and the viscous cycle begins.

This.

I have a friend who was looking for a puppy. I found some breeders on dol for him to call. He said there was only one who he spoke to that he didnt find rude to talk to but she wasn't planning on breeding another litter for a couple of years. He ended up buying one from a byb. My impression from talking to him now is that he wouldnt bother trying a registered breeder again. He says that he just wants a pet and try as I might I can't get him to understand the importance of health testing. He simply doesnt understand the difference between products, and really you have to already be in the know or lucky enough to know someone who is to be able to find and get a good purebred dog.

[Simply Grand]

Seriously, I had no idea about registered breeders and the benefits of health tested, sound and stable breeding stock until after I got my first dog (Saxon). I am quite intelligent and did do quite a lot of research via the Internet when looking for my puppy. I had thought I might like his particular cross as I knew one who is a great little dog and from there went on to research "Moodle", Poodle and Maltese to make sure I had an idea of the temperament, size, activity levels and grooming I could expect. Plenty of info out there that convinced me this "breed" would be a good fit for me. I was well aware that it was a cross of two breeds, but I wasn't aware of why that could be an issue. I wasn't specifically looking for a cross breed because of "hybrid vigour" or anything, or for a "designer" breed, just for a little dog that would suit my life, with some predictability into what kind of dog he would grow into. While researching though I just didn't come across anything that triggered in my mind that I should look more specifically at a pedigree purebred.

It was after I had already committed to buying Saxon from a byb (who did look after the dogs well and produced well socialised puppies who have made great pets) that I came across DOL and started to learn and understand more. Obviously I am now well aware of the advantages and my other two dogs are pedigree purebred.

I think it takes some thinking a bit outside the square and trying to get information about the benefits to a buyer of finding a properly bred dog from a breeding program that has been thought through and is carried out with the aim of producing healthy, sound, predictable dogs - whether that means ANKC registered or not. Of course there are not going to be a whole heap of people breeding "Spike to Sally coz they're good dogs who make cute puppies" that fit that bill anyway so if done well it would bring most back to ANKC reg anyway, but until someone gets to really be involved in and understand the dog world a lot of the stuff out there saying non-reg, byb, pet shops, whatever are just bad and only ANKC reg dogs are good sounds a bit fanatical and snobby (no offence intended but we know that's how it often comes across to the general public).

A mum with three kids wanting a family pet is probably going to do the kind of initial research I did at best , searching for 'dogs good with kids, medium size, well behaved" or something, and will not come across enough convincing information to steer her towards a good breeder and healthy, sound dog. (I've just done a quick search and there is lots of pretty good info about which breeds might suit, the importance of training, grooming and exercise needs to be considered, so someone researching would likely feel they HAVE done their research to find a good dog for them BUT as i found, there really isnt much saying that while a Labrodor as a breed may be a great match not all Labrador puppies listed for sale, even on great sites like DOL, will be created equal). She probably won't become a bit of a crazy dog person like I did and spend the next four years learning about dogs to get to the point of being aware of all the things it is important to look for and ask about, so if we want to change people's views we need to get to them right at that first search stage.

I know the next question is "How?". My answer is "I don't really know" :D

[Phyria]

I know the next question is "How?". My answer is "I don't really know" :D

Maybe if dog clubs and breeders tried to work together to create a website specifically aimed towards people looking to get a pet, with a questionnaire you can fill out with basic information that will give you a list of potentially suitable breeds, information about WHY you should go to a registered breeder and what sort of questions they are likely to ask you (so you don't get put off by what can be seen as an interrogation. What may be seen by some as reasonable questions others may see as the breeder doubting their ability to look after a dog when many prospective buyers may have already owned dogs in the past)

Maybe have breeders and dog owners of different types write up what they know about the breed they love. People that show their dogs, people that just love them, people who compete in agility and other areas that many people aren't even aware exist! It would be great to get some vets in on it too!

It would be great to include links to shelters and adoption sites too.

Maybe even a Q&A section where people can post up a question and have breeders and veterinarians answer them.

Of course a really good website design is important, a professional one.

Websites that are difficult to navigate are pretty useless and are generally unsuccessful.

[Dame Aussie]

Fact is….many people just don’t think buying from a registered breeder is important.

People have been getting pets out of the paper, from BYBs’/people in the neighbourhood for yonks, and plenty of these dogs are happy and healthy pets......which then makes the owners wonder what all the fuss is about buying from a registered breeder?

Their BYB mutts have been great, why pay double just to get a dog from a registered breeder? I think there’s also the impression that breeders and purebred dogs are for “showing” and are “snobby” and I’m not sure how this can be addressed?

Unfortunately, I don’t believe much will change.

[pebbles]

This can be done admittedly just a few people at a time but it works, they then pass on to others and word spreads. It's just a case of people getting of their bums and organising things (see post 30). There's a lot of Ag shows around and a lot of the public like to see the dogs. You just need friendly dog people to meet the public.

[~Anne~]

Fact is….many people just don’t think buying from a registered breeder is important.

People have been getting pets out of the paper, from BYBs’/people in the neighbourhood for yonks, and plenty of these dogs are happy and healthy pets......which then makes the owners wonder what all the fuss is about buying from a registered breeder?

Their BYB mutts have been great, why pay double just to get a dog from a registered breeder? I think there’s also the impression that breeders and purebred dogs are for “showing” and are “snobby” and I’m not sure how this can be addressed?

Unfortunately, I don’t believe much will change.

It can be addressed through the creation of messages. Marketing. That is what marketing and promotion is. Creating perceptions.

The breed clubs, state kennel clubs and associations, and perhaps the ANKC and other registries need to get on board.

The problem is that these associations and organisations are not resourced for this or is it part of their charters I believe.

Perhaps a foundation of sorts could be created that is aligned to the ANKC given that it is the national body. A levy could be charged to members that is purely for promotion of the purebred dog. I recall discussing this a million years ago on this forum. To me it is the logical way to proceed. Numbers of purebreds have dropped dramatically over the last 10 years. We could stop this if a coordinated national effort was made.

[shapeshifter]

I hate to say this as I really don't want it to be true but unfortunately I don't think that anything breeders do will have an enormous impact on the wider community.

As most things in life the ultimate decision comes down to money and majority of people WILL NOT spend more than they have to and if that means buying from a puppy farm where they have glamorous websites touting how wonderful their dogs are and how 'everyone that buys one loves them and comes back again and again and so do their friends'.

Very very few people want to be saving up for a year or so to afford a $1500-$2500 pet even if it does come with health checks, something can go wrong no matter where you buy from and they would see it as wasted money and then all the other money they will then have to pour into a pet.

We all know the stories of the guy that picked up their purebred puppy from a market and it's been the most wonderful dog, so smart and is great with the kids, he bought it for $100, why on earth would the same guy then go and spend $1500 on a purebred from a breeder when 'they are rude and want to know how many times a day he does a shit'.

Even people that are willing to pay the higher prices are often discouraged when they are researching and very few people will give them answers about anything and breeders are HIGHLY OFFENDED that they dare ask 'how much pups are'.

What are the answers, I don't believe there are any to make people buy majority of the time from a breeder, after all puppy farms are breeders, the consumer doesn't think they are doing anything wrong and the law is behind them 100% since puppy farms know the laws and how to stay within them and work them to their advantage.

Ultimately it comes down to money and instant gratification, they want to be seen as the most loving parent in the group 'oh look what they bought their kids, aren't they such great parents', and even for people that buy from rescue 'oh aren't they the kindest person, they SAVED that dog'.

If you want to stop sticking your heads in the sand you need to have websites, you need to fill them with lovely things and lots and lots of photos that aren't just a dog in the distance, you need to be upfront with how much your dogs are and WHY you charge that much. If people see value for money which includes results of health testing for all of your dogs there in peoples faces they WILL start thinking that there might be something to buying from a breeder at higher prices.

I can tell you that personally I have come across very few breeders websites of a few different breeds that spell it all out and I'm extremely impressed with what they say and show, I don't know what fellow breeders think, they could have 'bad lines' but I can tell you that I would go to them first than someone who had bad mouthed them and couldn't show me anything about their dogs.

[Dame Aussie]

I agree with everything you've said shapeshifter.

Unfortunately Joe Blow just wants a dog, preferably cute, preferably cheap and preferably now.

[Simply Grand]

Maybe we need to focus on having info out there for people who do want to know all about the options and would be inclined to go with ped PB and not try to convert people who aren't interested?

Just thinking out loud but maybe we need to narrow our target market from the entire pet buying public to people like me, and all those other DOLers who say I didn't know about ped PBs when I bought my byb/pet shop puppy. People who do research and do want to know all the information before making a decision, and think that they have but have missed a whole chunk because the info isn't out there.

Trouble is it would need a proper marketing strategy including market research and that would require funding and coordination.

[shapeshifter]

Thanks Aussie, I was trying my hardest not to waffle :D

I know personally I'll be lucky to have saved up $1000 by the end of the year, I have been without a dog for over a year now and I'm slowly going insane but I know that although I might not regret getting that cheaper dog I know that I want to try my hardest to start with a pup that is the healthiest I can get, for that I can resist the urge to buy those $200 pups off gumtree LOL

I am the exception to the rule though, I research things to death and beyond, I've been a member here for 13 years (is that possible!!!). I have friends that are dog groomers and breeders and they know nothing about DOL. I have many many other friends that know nothing about buying a dog besides going to the RSPCA or looking in the paper or seeing a sign in the supermarket.