Puppies Being Sold With Fatal Diseases

[Wundahoo]

If the xrays shown are of the dog in question it has BIG problems and will probably be in a lot of trouble in a few years time. $500 wont go very far at all.

If it's true that she has resigned as a member of Dogswest, perhaps she will take up registration with another body.

As many of us know there are quite a few organisations which will register breeders eg AAPD (Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders), MDBA and several overseas organisations which will register breeders or the pups that they produce.

There is no real requirement for any breeder to indicate which organisation they are affiliated with in order to be able to claim that they are a "registered breeder".

Then again perhaps the owner of this kennel intends to finally retire.

Those of us that have been around for a long time will remember this kennel many years ago as being a producer of quality Golden Retrievers and for being largely responsible for introducing the Flat Coated Retriever to Australia.

It seems a sad demise of what was once a highly regarded prefix.

[Steph M]

I would think the term 'breeder' is applied fairly loosely here.

There's a very large farm and it's shopfront that I'm sure Perth rescuers know more about.

Yeah, I believe they are most unpopular and for a very good reason.

[Steph M]

So the reporter called Dancinggate Kennels a backyard breeder but the owner called them a registered breeder.

Sadly you can be both!

[sandgrubber]

Previous complaints about Dancinggate . . . see

http://www.goldenret...ncing-gate.html

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=249037255205114&story_fbid=398228553568963

I remember being told to steer clear of them when I lived in Perth.

Edited September 18, 2013 by sandgrubber

[Steve]

So what is it we are judging her on?

The amount of dogs she has?

The amount of dogs she has bred?

The fact that she bred a dog of a breed which is known to have HD as a potential problem which was diagnosed with this disease two years down the track when the disease is impossible to avoid no matter how hard the breeder tries and it is only about 19% attributed to genetics?

She didn't breed a dog which developed Parvo after it went home did she or did I miss something?

Making a breeder responsible for HD after two years - bit harsh.

The link Sandgrubber posted re no one being able to go onto the property past a certain point?

[Angeluca]

So what is it we are judging her on?

The amount of dogs she has?

The amount of dogs she has bred?

The fact that she bred a dog of a breed which is known to have HD as a potential problem which was diagnosed with this disease two years down the track when the disease is impossible to avoid no matter how hard the breeder tries and it is only about 19% attributed to genetics?

She didn't breed a dog which developed Parvo after it went home did she or did I miss something?

Making a breeder responsible for HD after two years - bit harsh.

The link Sandgrubber posted re no one being able to go onto the property past a certain point?

I think the judgement comes from repeated experiences dating back 12 yrs (from what I have found just in my curiosity search) I hate breeder bashing especially when it isn't justified. So I try to find out as much as I can before making an opinion.

The exact same story repeated in many ways, No visual of litter or mother due to 'quarantine'.

Verbal statements of testing, Most said they have seen the father through a fence some said he seemed very excited'

that there is at least 10 dogs in view but unknown what is in the back.

On these issues Alone, quarantine is important yes but there are plenty of ways to go about that. Mother and litter in the visual pen without approach, disinfectant and those funny shower caps that go over your shoes. Why can the sire be approached, goldens and I assume flats are suppose to have the most friendly nature there should be no reason not to actually meet the dog. But with this all causing 'alarm bells' they still buy the pup.

There are so many people who claim to personally own a dancing gate dog and claim HD think i saw the earliest case was 6 mths most (all that I have read state HD before age 2) A lot of these claims state the joint didn't form properly and not a dislocation. I know this can still be environmental but that is impossible with the amount of claims.

Other claims are ED, eye problems, sibling matings.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Angeluca

[BlackJaq]

No mention of potential environmental factors for HD.. Nice.

And I agree, the dog does look a little overweight.

I would also like to point out that the clip said Dancing Gate agreed to pay $500, not was forced to.

I do not agree with names being named publically and making people targets for animal rights nutters when that person has not actually been convicted of any wrong doing.

This does not mean I am a fan of that particular kennel, but I can see how a disgruntled puppy buyer or even several can quickly bring a breeder down, even if the breeder has been doing everything in their power to produce healthy, happy dogs. Getting a large breed puppy, feeding it fat and exercising it excessively can quickly damage your puppy. This my get expensive. Your breeder will probably not want to pay for the thousands of dollars a hip replacement can cost. Now puppy buyer is not only sad but angry and proceeds to tell the world about their misfortunes....

Not saying this is what happened here, but it could easily happen to any breeder. Would you want to have your name plastered all over the media and internet, denouncing you as a puppy farm, when you have actually done everything in your power to produce good puppies? Would you want people hanging around your property, ambushing you for "interviews" for public scrutiny when you go out to get groceries? Would you want people filming your property and possibly entering to get more footage, when they know you are out? How can you defend yourself against that kind of onslaught?

[sandgrubber]

So what is it we are judging her on?

I think it's premature to judge. But there are enough warning signs to suspect a problem. Not allowing puppy buyers to view premises, dogs, or pups is a bad sign. Having the neighbors say they walked by regularly and felt sorry for the dogs always being locked up (on the Facebook page) is a bad sign. Having person after person report HD and other problems is a bad sign. If the dam is routinely removed at three weeks and the pups weaned at that point, that's an awful thing. If vets are warning people off a breeder, I'd take it seriously.

It is curious that the puppy refund was apparently $500. That's less than half the going price for goldies in Perth.

As others have noted, the story was poorly written by someone who doesn't know much about dogs.

Edited September 19, 2013 by sandgrubber

[Rusky]

Dancingate have been registered breeders for 40 years. They are and always have been registered with ANKC.

[OSoSwift]

Yes until resigning their membership very recently

[Steph M]

So what is it we are judging her on?

The amount of dogs she has?

The amount of dogs she has bred?

The fact that she bred a dog of a breed which is known to have HD as a potential problem which was diagnosed with this disease two years down the track when the disease is impossible to avoid no matter how hard the breeder tries and it is only about 19% attributed to genetics?

She didn't breed a dog which developed Parvo after it went home did she or did I miss something?

Making a breeder responsible for HD after two years - bit harsh.

The link Sandgrubber posted re no one being able to go onto the property past a certain point?

I think the judgement comes from repeated experiences dating back 12 yrs (from what I have found just in my curiosity search) I hate breeder bashing especially when it isn't justified. So I try to find out as much as I can before making an opinion.

The exact same story repeated in many ways, No visual of litter or mother due to 'quarantine'.

Verbal statements of testing, Most said they have seen the father through a fence some said he seemed very excited'

that there is at least 10 dogs in view but unknown what is in the back.

On these issues Alone, quarantine is important yes but there are plenty of ways to go about that. Mother and litter in the visual pen without approach, disinfectant and those funny shower caps that go over your shoes. Why can the sire be approached, goldens and I assume flats are suppose to have the most friendly nature there should be no reason not to actually meet the dog. But with this all causing 'alarm bells' they still buy the pup.

There are so many people who claim to personally own a dancing gate dog and claim HD think i saw the earliest case was 6 mths most (all that I have read state HD before age 2) A lot of these claims state the joint didn't form properly and not a dislocation. I know this can still be environmental but that is impossible with the amount of claims.

Other claims are ED, eye problems, sibling matings.

I heard a horror story of said breeder using a dog boarded with her to stud, again, can't vouch for the truth in it all but perhaps the no smoke without fire applies.

I can't remember which user on here knew a person with an FCR from them and mentioned the dog looked nothing at all like an FCR. I've also seen photos of litters with white blazes on black/liver dogs. That ain't something you see every day...

[Rusky]

I believe Joy resigned on Tuesday this story was Wednesday. The dog in question both parents were hip scored. The lady is 82 years of age now. I bought a puppy from Joy and Colin years ago, she did develop hip dysplasia. I called and told her, she offered to take the puppy back. I loved her so kept her I was just letting her know.Years later I took my dog to see Joy as I had lived in the country till that time. I walked up and asked did she want to meet Dancingate Dorcas Willow...she said...bring her in...her is her mum...here is her dad. She didn't do any checking other than the name I gave her and sure enough her mum and dad were in urns under the seat.

Later I took a rescue golden I knew was hers, she gave me food, vitamins and tracked down the owner on her list...black list... She offered to take her and care for her. I feel really sad that an old breeder has had to suffer in this way and to be linked with a story of shocking cruelty and also to be called a back yard breeder. She does all genetic testing, she hip scores...what more ??? If people are able to sue for hip dysplaysia 2 years down the track ??? OMG dreadful.

[Livertreats]

It is a requirement for all Flat Coated Retrievers parents to have hip, elbows and eye's tested before any off springs can be registered, been that way for a few years now. I to have had dogs from Joy, my first one I was very lucky with but my second one I could not say the same about. Yes the first one, I did see the parents and his litter mates and the sire - well hopefully it was. However my second dog 3 days after I picked her up she was very sick and I took her to my vets to be told she had Parvo, not been anywhere else and my other dogs were vaccinated, only one place it could have come from. Told by my vets she was the youngest, sickest dog he had known to survive, however that was the first of many of her problems. I was reimbursed $250 which no where near covered the cost of her medical expenses. However to say we thought she was not going to make her 1st birthday in November she will be having her 12th birthday. My first FCR lived to just over 12 years. I loved them both so much but it does break your heart to see them suffering from bad breeding practices.

Once a very respected kennel. You really cant call a very large registered kennel a backyard breeder, just a bad breeder.

Over the years I have had many people contact me regarding the breed, told them my long story, some took heed and didn't go there for a puppy others did and yes have been told many very sad stories.

So do I feel sorry for this elderly lady now, no I don't. Hopefully she wont be able to sell another puppy and go out of business.

[Angeluca]

I believe Joy resigned on Tuesday this story was Wednesday. The dog in question both parents were hip scored. The lady is 82 years of age now. I bought a puppy from Joy and Colin years ago, she did develop hip dysplasia. I called and told her, she offered to take the puppy back. I loved her so kept her I was just letting her know.Years later I took my dog to see Joy as I had lived in the country till that time. I walked up and asked did she want to meet Dancingate Dorcas Willow...she said...bring her in...her is her mum...here is her dad. She didn't do any checking other than the name I gave her and sure enough her mum and dad were in urns under the seat.

Later I took a rescue golden I knew was hers, she gave me food, vitamins and tracked down the owner on her list...black list... She offered to take her and care for her. I feel really sad that an old breeder has had to suffer in this way and to be linked with a story of shocking cruelty and also to be called a back yard breeder. She does all genetic testing, she hip scores...what more ??? If people are able to sue for hip dysplaysia 2 years down the track ??? OMG dreadful.

I saw another person claim a quiet few yrs ago they too her to court over a female who had hd at 7 mths, they won and got to keep the dog, she as7 developed front leg problems (maybe cause from a weight distribution off her back legs).

There are so many claims by people. 1 I saw was 12 yrs. If it was the odd dog wit HD then yeah can happen to everyone but when it seems you have 10+ it seems a bit of a pattern and if she cared maybe she should have checked her lines and done something different.

Yes you can't prevent everything but how many HD cases within 2 yrs of a dogs life is acceptable?

[poshspice24]

We had correspondence with Dogs West due to our own issues (not HD) and they confirmed on Monday 16 September "This afternoon I received Mrs Smith’s resignation as a member of Dogs West, effective immediately, which means we cannot take any action against her"

Edited September 21, 2013 by poshspice24

[OSoSwift]

We had correspondence with Dogs West due to our own issues (not HD) and they confirmed on Monday 16 September "This afternoon I received Mrs Smith’s resignation as a member of Dogs West, effective immediately, which means we cannot take any action against her"

That is frustrating.

Is it possible you could take her to Fair trading???

[Poodle wrangler]

Is it unreasonable for a "health guarantee" from breeders?

Saying that they will take back a dog with a genetic condition causing pain and suffering to the dog and refund at least part or all of the cost of puppy?

That would seem fair.

HD is difficult because it cannot be proven 100% genetic.

Probably isn't if dog is an obese, overexercised 2+ year old who's leaping up and down stairwells .

I think many breeders are great, but doesn't change the fact that people are paying money for a puppy.

Legislation exists to protect buyers from unscrupulous breeders selling dogs that are nothing like a show prospect or nothing like the "teacup" SWF the BYB promised.

Breeders are selling something- a living creature- but once $ are involved, so is the law.

Undoubtedly many people would choose NOT to return their dog to breeder under a health guarantee, which is OK.

I'd be one of them, unless it was very severe HD, causing obvious severe pain, in a very young dog.

I don't apologise for not paying many $1000's of dollars for surgery requiring months of rehab and near-fulltime care.

Also many risks of surgery: infection etc.

For many it's not even a choice: They cannot afford it.

[Steph M]

Is it unreasonable for a "health guarantee" from breeders?

Saying that they will take back a dog with a genetic condition causing pain and suffering to the dog and refund at least part or all of the cost of puppy?

That would seem fair.

Usually what you get when you pick a good breeder, I believe? Certainly doubt any realistic breeder wouldn't want to know about something so big and do what they can.

[Steve]

Its not unreasonable for a health guarantee for basic good health for a limited period of time after the dog goes home or for something longer term that the breeder should or could test for which has a definite DNA test and gives the status of the parents but it isn't possible for anyone to be able to predict how long a living being can remain healthy and not show something into the future that no one could have anticipated. Its certainly unfair to expect a breeder to be held responsible for things far into the future which are polygenic and impacted by environment, chemicals, feeding,exercise,stress etc.

[Steph M]

Its not unreasonable for a health guarantee for basic good health for a limited period of time after the dog goes home or for something longer term that the breeder should or could test for which has a definite DNA test and gives the status of the parents but it isn't possible for anyone to be able to predict how long a living being can remain healthy and not show something into the future that no one could have anticipated. Its certainly unfair to expect a breeder to be held responsible for things far into the future which are polygenic and impacted by environment, chemicals, feeding,exercise,stress etc.

Good point, I omitted that part.