Steve Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) I've seen puppy farm pics of bitches obviously overbred so you can tell in an extreme situation , and some dogs noticeably show their age so you can get an idea they are older , but you are right I do not know her exact age . It was just an observation , I felt bad for the bitch and the pup that's all ... You cant tell by looking at a bitch how old she is or how many litters she has had. We have seen photos of puppy farm bitches which we are told are over bred thats no evidence they are and the fact is that its actually not bad for a healthy bitch to have litters every heat season. Just saying. Edited July 5, 2014 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Over breeding a female ? How? Do you mean more often that the CC says you should or the science of the species said you should? Gotta get your moneys worth from a bitch, darn that CC and their limitations. Nothing to do with money if we are talking about the science - its about what's best for the bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Nothing to do with money if we are talking about the science - its about what's best for the bitch. Because you need to have back to back litters? Because you need to start breeding ASAP? Because a bitch can have unlimited litters until a vet finally ticks her off as no more? Mmmhmm. Thats not to do with what is best for the bitch thats to do with money no way you paint it. Unless you have a super rare dog with a limited gene pool and you need more individuals to keep the breed alive that excuse doesn't float with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Nothing to do with money if we are talking about the science - its about what's best for the bitch. Because you need to have back to back litters? Because you need to start breeding ASAP? Because a bitch can have unlimited litters until a vet finally ticks her off as no more? Mmmhmm. Thats not to do with what is best for the bitch thats to do with money no way you paint it. Unless you have a super rare dog with a limited gene pool and you need more individuals to keep the breed alive that excuse doesn't float with me. Because the science says breed them young and breed them often - no point in being educated on canine reproduction by animal rights and mythology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VizslaMomma Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Over breeding a female ? How? Do you mean more often that the CC says you should or the science of the species said you should? Gotta get your moneys worth from a bitch, darn that CC and their limitations. Nothing to do with money if we are talking about the science - its about what's best for the bitch. Dare I ask what you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 I do what I have to do to comply with the law and the code of ethics - never ever done anything else doesn't mean I cant say what the truth is and whats best for dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VizslaMomma Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 I do what I have to do to comply with the law and the code of ethics - never ever done anything else doesn't mean I cant say what the truth is and whats best for dogs. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) 1404030540[/url]' post='6513771']I was really annoyed today . Picked my daughter up from her friends place and this blue female staffy runs out and a gorgeous pup behind her .. The child's mum wasn't home just the older daughter . I commented on the pup and she said they breed them .. Yeah I can see that , the female was a senior and had been bred often to say the least :-( . She said they use a friends dog , this friend was the creator of the blue staffy .. ( oh I said ). They kept the female pup to take over from the mum , she wouldn't tell me how much they sold them for just that it varies. I felt sorry for this pup .. They may be 'money hungry' or they may not. Some assumptions being made? Guessing she had saggy breasts? Some bitches go back into shape quickly and some don't. Some have one litter and have big boobs for life and others have several and spring back well. Do you know how many litters she has had? Or is the number an assumption? 'Senior'? Do you know how old she was? Is senior 5 years? 8 years? Older? The 'creator' thing is yes a bit weird. You were talking to the daughter though. Not the dogs owner. She may have had a few things confused (perhaps he bred two dogs which carried the dilute gene to 'create' a litter with blues in it at some point). Whatever we personally think of blues, the fact that they have blues does not necessarily tell us they are 'money hungry'. That is an outside generalisation. They may possibly be 'backyard' breeders ( again an assumption) but even backyard breeders have many motivations for breeding, not all about money. They kept a female pup they bred to continue their line. Many breeders do this. Heck I have done it. That is the point of breeding. To have something to go on with. We don't know how much they sell them for (except it varies) so can not make any judgement based on that either. So exactly how are they money hungry? Edited July 5, 2014 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airedaler Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 The ones that are money hungry to me are those who breed a bitch every season, register some with the canine association and not others and manage to sell the pups at top $ but have no experience to give adequate follow up to the buyers and may or may not do the appropriate health tests. I know of one bitch that whelped 5 litters before she was 6. That is not breeding to continue ones line, that is straight up money hungry IMO. This type of breeder gets away with this because as a general rule others do not take note of the published adverts or notices. If they are brought to account a slap on the wrist is all the CC's give and if in the extreme case they have a membership suspended or cancelled they continue to breed as most people do not care about Canine Council registration or even understand what it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PL_ Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Nothing to do with money if we are talking about the science - its about what's best for the bitch. Because you need to have back to back litters? Because you need to start breeding ASAP? Because a bitch can have unlimited litters until a vet finally ticks her off as no more? Mmmhmm. Thats not to do with what is best for the bitch thats to do with money no way you paint it. Unless you have a super rare dog with a limited gene pool and you need more individuals to keep the breed alive that excuse doesn't float with me. Because the science says breed them young and breed them often - no point in being educated on canine reproduction by animal rights and mythology. Doesn't float with me either. And 'animal rights' doesn't mean rescuers haven't seen bitches bred young & often almost to the point of collapse. It's not a mythology we make up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shapeshifter Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 If a dog is happy and healthy why is it wrong to breed once a year, they are animals after all and majority of dogs in the wild would breed whenever and wherever, yes I realise they are not in the wild, I'm just talking about limits though. I'm not a breeder so don't actually know the answer to this, hence the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) There have been scientific studies to show that it is detrimental for bitches to skip heat cycles. Once you have begun to mate a bitch that you should NOT skip any heat cycles until she is completely finished breeding. A bitch is said to be "finished" breeding when her litter size is drastically decreased. The study involved following females that were bred every heat cycle and females that were bred every other heat cycle. After they were "finished" breeding, the bitches were spayed and their uterus dissected. Those showing most stress, and damage of the uterus were the females that were bred "every other" heat cycle. Part of the rational that skipping heat cycles is harmful stems from the fact that with consecutive heat cycles there is no "flushing action" of the uterus, that normally occurs by having a litter of puppies. The female will go through Estrus no matter if she is bred or not and by breeding a healthy bitch back to back, can lesson the chances of the female experiencing pyometra, infections and false pregnancys. The choice to breed or not, should be contingent upon the goals the breeder has and for sure the mental and physical health of the female, above all else. http://www.everythin...ew_page_195.htm 1. J.P. Verstegen III and K. Onclin. Prolactin andAnti-Prolactinic Agents in the Pathophysiology and Treatment of Mammary Tumorsin the Dog. NAVC Proceedings 2006, North American Veterinary Conference (Eds). 2. Canine Pseudopregnancy: A Review (Last Updated:23-Aug-2001) C. Gobello1, P. W. Concannon2 and J. Verstegen III3, RecentAdvances in Small Animal Reproduction, Concannon P.W., England G., VerstegenIII J. and Linde-Forsberg C. (Eds.) 3. Donnay I, Rauis J & Verstegen J – Influence desantécédents hormonaux sur l'apparition clinique des tumeurs mammaires chez lachienne. Etude épidémiologique. Ann. Med. Vet. 1994, 138, 109-117 4. Simón Martà Angulo Clinical aspects of uterine disease inthe bitch and queen. Proceeding of the Southern European Veterinary Conference Oct. 2-4, 2009. S. Romagnoli, How I Treat… Pyometra. Proceeding of the SEVC Southern European Veterinary Conference Oct. 17-19, 2008 –Barcelona, Spain 5 Davidson AP, Feldman EC. Ovarian and estrous cycleabnormalities. In: Ettinger SW, Feldman EC (eds) Textbook of VeterinaryInternal Medicine. WB Saunders, 2004 6 Johnson CA. Cystic endometrial hyperplasia, pyometra, andinfertility. In: Ettinger SW, Feldman EC (eds). Textbook of VeterinaryInternal Medicine WB Saunders, 1992, pp. 954. Edited July 7, 2014 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shapeshifter Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Thank you Steve. I can now understand why breeders walk away from the registered sections of the community. I often hear about breeders that love their breed but believe that they know what is better for their dogs than a registry. They don't want to give up breeding. I believe that these are the people that get the BYB tag when they shouldn't. They still test what they need to and they still have champion lines, it's just that they were champions when people cared about what the breed was rather than what money they could make from a ribbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Doesnt really matter because in some states its illegal to breed back to back every time. I just like to keep the science engaged before we all forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) While we are talking about that which should not be talked about should also say back in the days when fertility and ability to reproduce meant something - good mothers were bred more often than rotten mothers and they kept their daughters - more daughters who were good mothers better for the breed so it was a good thing - now you're not even supposed to talk about it because its about money grabbing. Edited July 7, 2014 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuralPug Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) For most of the BYB's and pf's out there back to back breeding is overly hard on the bitch simply because they do not give adequate care and nutrition to the bitch when in whelp and feeding puppies. Nor do they ensure that their bitch is at the peak of physical fitness before breeding her in the first place. So the science is put aside as a welfare measure due to the ignorance of the many. I couldn't agree more on your last point about fertility Steve - and the fact that in some breeds the ability to free whelp is so rare that Caesareans are routinely scheduled and expected horrifies me. Also, in the old days, once a bitch was adult that was when you decided whether or not she was a breeding prospect . These days it seems politically incorrect to breed before a title has been attained and bad luck if she is past the peak age for a first litter and the "pelvic bones have set" as we used to say (which led to whelping problems). Mind you, I am not advocating breeding before physical maturity either - although aqain we have to obey arbitrary rules there these days to compensate for the ignorance of the many. Edited to get rid of big empty space caused by foster cat on keyboard..... Edited July 7, 2014 by RuralPug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 yep. And the science tells us that a bitch which has something wrong with her will either not come in heat, not mate or not fall pregnant but now humans interfere and its no longer up to the bitch. If you dont look after your bitch when she has pups you would be forgiven for thinking its caused by over breeding because that's how she looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumof4girls Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 Sigh , it was just an observation and if you were there you may have made the same one , seeing a situation and then reading it can be very different ., 1404030540[/url]' post='6513771']I was really annoyed today . Picked my daughter up from her friends place and this blue female staffy runs out and a gorgeous pup behind her .. The child's mum wasn't home just the older daughter . I commented on the pup and she said they breed them .. Yeah I can see that , the female was a senior and had been bred often to say the least :-( . She said they use a friends dog , this friend was the creator of the blue staffy .. ( oh I said ). They kept the female pup to take over from the mum , she wouldn't tell me how much they sold them for just that it varies. I felt sorry for this pup .. They may be 'money hungry' or they may not. Some assumptions being made? Guessing she had saggy breasts? Some bitches go back into shape quickly and some don't. Some have one litter and have big boobs for life and others have several and spring back well. Do you know how many litters she has had? Or is the number an assumption? 'Senior'? Do you know how old she was? Is senior 5 years? 8 years? Older? The 'creator' thing is yes a bit weird. You were talking to the daughter though. Not the dogs owner. She may have had a few things confused (perhaps he bred two dogs which carried the dilute gene to 'create' a litter with blues in it at some point). Whatever we personally think of blues, the fact that they have blues does not necessarily tell us they are 'money hungry'. That is an outside generalisation. They may possibly be 'backyard' breeders ( again an assumption) but even backyard breeders have many motivations for breeding, not all about money. They kept a female pup they bred to continue their line. Many breeders do this. Heck I have done it. That is the point of breeding. To have something to go on with. We don't know how much they sell them for (except it varies) so can not make any judgement based on that either. So exactly how are they money hungry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PL_ Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Sigh , it was just an observation and if you were there you may have made the same one , seeing a situation and then reading it can be very different ., I believe you and your opinion is just as valid as everyone else's. I've seen it myself, with zero guesswork or assumptions or animal rights mythology. Skeletal, huge torn hernias, prolapse, mammary cancer, epilepsy, crippled, senior etc etc they still fall pregnant and as long as they produce live litters they will continue to be mated. Given the apparent small percentage of registered breeders I believe a large number of pups come from elsewhere and with two motivations. Ignorance and/or money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) If a dog is happy and healthy why is it wrong to breed once a year, they are animals after all and majority of dogs in the wild would breed whenever and wherever, yes I realise they are not in the wild, I'm just talking about limits though. The lives of dogs in the wild were (are) nasty, brutish and short. Good article here from a chief vet of a respected UK welfare association. http://www.bluecross.org.uk/1752-109677/is-a-natural-life-better-than-a-domesticated-one-.html Domestication of dogs and steps by humans to improve their welfare, has led to an aim that dogs' lives will not be so nasty, brutish & short. As powerlegs described in her post... if owners/breeders take away welfare standards, then their modern dogs can live a pretty nasty life. Edited July 8, 2014 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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