CountryGirl Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 So if the Mini Foxie is held in such esteem, why can't it be registered with the ANKC? Can breeders advertise their litters on DOL? Is it okay for someone to breed their mini foxies to say Chihuahuas and have the pups recognised too? Would such a breeder be considered legitimate or a BYB? Same question applies to anyone breeding two different purebreds to get a crossbred litter really... Sorry for all the questions but I'm still not sure of how some "unregistered" breeders are somehow okay and others are not...so if it means any breeder that has "purebred" litters only, that's never been my understanding and I'm happy to be corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 So there are legitimate Registers other than the Kennel Clubs and working breed clubs? Which ones would they be? The AAPDB? The Australian Bull Arab Club? I didn't think they were legitimate? They might "look" legitimate to the average puppy buyer...but are they? ETA - what about the "American Bulldog" -is that also a legitimate recognised breed in Australia now? Irondog claims to be the "original" registry... There is a bullarab registry that's working on getting the breed officially recognised. I believe there is also one for Bosdogs and American Bulldogs. There needs to be a recorded history, pedigree and standard for developing breeds or breeds not yet recognised by the ANKC in my understanding. I'm still confused. Are these organisations held in similar esteem to the ANKC affiliated clubs and the working breed clubs? What about the AAPDB - the body that welcomes pet shop owners as members too? Does this mean that the ANKC isn't the benchmark for registered breeders/exhibitors any more? How many of these organisations organise/host dog shows for conformation? Do they have similar championship/point score requirements? Some do organise conformation shows but that doesnt make them better than another that doesn't - it just makes them different . You seriously cant expect that the whole world should only allow people who are registered with the ANKC to be able to advertise their puppies? And this petitions would stop all of us - are we to simply give up our rights and what we want to do because someone might advertise there who is dodgy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryGirl Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 So there are legitimate Registers other than the Kennel Clubs and working breed clubs? Which ones would they be? The AAPDB? The Australian Bull Arab Club? I didn't think they were legitimate? They might "look" legitimate to the average puppy buyer...but are they? ETA - what about the "American Bulldog" -is that also a legitimate recognised breed in Australia now? Irondog claims to be the "original" registry... There is a bullarab registry that's working on getting the breed officially recognised. I believe there is also one for Bosdogs and American Bulldogs. There needs to be a recorded history, pedigree and standard for developing breeds or breeds not yet recognised by the ANKC in my understanding. I'm still confused. Are these organisations held in similar esteem to the ANKC affiliated clubs and the working breed clubs? What about the AAPDB - the body that welcomes pet shop owners as members too? Does this mean that the ANKC isn't the benchmark for registered breeders/exhibitors any more? How many of these organisations organise/host dog shows for conformation? Do they have similar championship/point score requirements? Some do organise conformation shows but that doesnt make them better than another that doesn't - it just makes them different . You seriously cant expect that the whole world should only allow people who are registered with the ANKC to be able to advertise their puppies? And this petitions would stop all of us - are we to simply give up our rights and what we want to do because someone might advertise there who is dodgy? I still can't see where the distinction is between registered breeders and BYBs if that's what you're saying...is there a way to explain it so I can understand what is meant then by BYB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabbath Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I think that there is a misunderstanding. No-one here is suggesting that the BYB 'oodle' type or any other BYB or puppy mill dogs are a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliecat Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 A back yard breeder is your average joe who goes I'm gonna make some cash and breed my staffies/labs/insert breed her. No history of the breed, no health testing, no standard, no records of pedigree in most cases, they're not doing it to improve the breed. No interest in showing or getting their dogs recognised by a kennel club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliecat Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) Using the bull arab registry as an example, they have a standard (breed standard) , they do health tests. They track pedigrees and are looking to develop the breed and do hope to have the breed officially recognised. There's a clear difference in the direction between the two. Edited April 3, 2015 by Taliecat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryGirl Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Using the bull arab registry as an example, they have a standard (breed standard) , they do health tests. They track pedigrees and are looking to develop the breed and do hope to have the breed officially recognised. There's a clear difference in the direction between the two. Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Most of the "bull arabs" I see advertised are pigging dogs...I live in the country where pigging is very common and pigging dogs are bought/sold frequently. The "Paulson Bull Arab" is a breed too, according to the people who buy/sell and breed them. None of these people mention anything about having a breed registry or pedigree for their animals. This breed seems to be interchangeable with the "Johnson Bull Dog" in some pigging circles and of course, they also use a lot of "Wolfhounds" in their "lines"...which is probably why there's so much confusion as to what is legitimate breeding to a standard vs the average BYB selling pups for money on the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliecat Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) I understand the confusion, when I first started looking into bull arabs it just seemed to be a bunch of random pigging dogs. But there are dedicated breeders that aren't just or out to make a quick dollar. The registry does have a breed standard, it's not just whatever you think is gonna make a good lugging dog.. Bull arabs are a bit of a messy exampleas they are still in the development stages. American Bulldogs are actually a recognised breed and are shown in confirmation in a number of different countries. No one appears to have taken the steps to get them recognised here. Steve actually posted a number of years ago on what it takes to get a breed recognised here. Which you can find here: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/223678-how-many-new-breed-accepted-by-ankc/page__st__15 Edit: American Bulldogs aren't recognised by the AKC, but a handful of others which is why they aren't recognised by ANKC as yet Edited April 3, 2015 by Taliecat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 So there are legitimate Registers other than the Kennel Clubs and working breed clubs? Which ones would they be? The AAPDB? The Australian Bull Arab Club? I didn't think they were legitimate? They might "look" legitimate to the average puppy buyer...but are they? ETA - what about the "American Bulldog" -is that also a legitimate recognised breed in Australia now? Irondog claims to be the "original" registry... There is a bullarab registry that's working on getting the breed officially recognised. I believe there is also one for Bosdogs and American Bulldogs. There needs to be a recorded history, pedigree and standard for developing breeds or breeds not yet recognised by the ANKC in my understanding. I'm still confused. Are these organisations held in similar esteem to the ANKC affiliated clubs and the working breed clubs? What about the AAPDB - the body that welcomes pet shop owners as members too? Does this mean that the ANKC isn't the benchmark for registered breeders/exhibitors any more? How many of these organisations organise/host dog shows for conformation? Do they have similar championship/point score requirements? Some do organise conformation shows but that doesnt make them better than another that doesn't - it just makes them different . You seriously cant expect that the whole world should only allow people who are registered with the ANKC to be able to advertise their puppies? And this petitions would stop all of us - are we to simply give up our rights and what we want to do because someone might advertise there who is dodgy? I still can't see where the distinction is between registered breeders and BYBs if that's what you're saying...is there a way to explain it so I can understand what is meant then by BYB? Sometimes there is no difference between a BYB and a registered breeder. In NSW Dogs NSW , the MDBA , the mini foxie club and the AAPDB are equally recognised by the state government. The reality is there are numerous registration bodies including local council so you can be a registered breeder even if you are not breeding ANKC recognised breeds or if you are not an ANKC member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 So if the Mini Foxie is held in such esteem, why can't it be registered with the ANKC? Can breeders advertise their litters on DOL? Is it okay for someone to breed their mini foxies to say Chihuahuas and have the pups recognised too? Would such a breeder be considered legitimate or a BYB? Same question applies to anyone breeding two different purebreds to get a crossbred litter really... Sorry for all the questions but I'm still not sure of how some "unregistered" breeders are somehow okay and others are not...so if it means any breeder that has "purebred" litters only, that's never been my understanding and I'm happy to be corrected. Its pretty hard to get a breed recognised and before they can get the criteria they have to have kept their own records and stud registry. but some dont want to have their breeds recognised by the ANKC . I personally know a mini Foxie breeder and I would consider her one of the most ethical and responsible breeders I have ever known .Usually in a breed in development stud books are still open but they cant just mate their dogs to any old thing and have it recognised - so no they cant breed their Mini Foxie to a chi and have it recognised. The Australian Cobberdog people test their dogs for 28 different things and breeding to a standard to get to a point where they have a predictable healthy breed is every bit as important to them as any breeders I have ever known. Ive also known some pretty rough ANKC registered breeders who I would consider to be back yard breeders with little interest in how what they do now will impact on future generations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 By the way right now there are breeders who are registered with their state's CC who breed cross bred dogs and or breeds in development - some will never breed a recognised purebred and never intended to when they became an ANKC registered breeder. Some breed both cross breds and purebreds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) The Gumtree equivalent in the US, Craigslist, does ban pet sales, though permits small rehoming fees (on the order of $100 . . . $200 or more will get you in trouble as will price on asking). I'd say the general effect is highly detrimental for small breeders, but not significant for commercial breeders whose marketing strategies are well worked and who typically ask prices on the up side of $1000. The anti-breeder AR types who patrol pet listings on Craigslist search for listings that include registry (AKC, CKC, etc) and actively flag pedigree breeders. Result: pet listings on CL are full of BYB pit bulls being sold cheap, oops litters, dogs being rehomed due to personal circumstances, and pedigree breeders have a harder time placing pups through local advertizing. Edited April 3, 2015 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 At least the people who advertise on gumtree who might have some of it wrong are taking responsibility for placing their animals themselves. Stopping them advertising there isn't going to stop anyone from breeding them and may increase the numbers sold in pet shops and killed or dumped. You cant just perceive a problem and scratch together a solution if you are not educated on the entire issue without having some pretty rotten negative un intended consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I'd rather see a petition to stop the use of the stupid "breed" names slapped onto crossbreeds in order to extract a high dollar value for pups... Say I mated my Rottweiler to my Labrador, then advertised the pups as "Rottadors"... funnily enough people will pay more dollars for said pups with that "breed" name attached than they would if I advertised them as Rotti x Lab. Seriously, if a breed mix is not currently recognised by any registry, and the lineage is not traceable, then they are crossbreeds/mutts... simple. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I am not quite convinced that advertising animals on Gumtree is any different to advertising animals on Dogzonline I am sure Gumtree is not just limited to back yard & shonky breeders. I can't see why an ethical breeder shouldn't be allowed to advertise their puppies wherever they like. Quite a bit different to Pet shops. Agree. It's not the method of advertising that is the problem. It is the standards of breeders and the knowledge of buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 The only body in Australia that is recognised through out the world is the ANKC. This is the only body that is accepted thought the world for the registration and showing of pure bred dogs and the transfer of those dog to different countries and owners. And NO I won't sign your petition.!!!!! I consider that I am an ethical registered breeder with the ANKC and I have the right to advertise anywhere I want to. I breed and show quality dogs and carefully screen buyers to the best of my ability and de sex all pups not on the main register and health test where it is available. I believe there is not a lot more that I and others of the same ilk can do to provide the purchasing public with quality pet puppies, so don't try and take away our right to advertise where we want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I haven't linked the Care2 petition in case I violate DOL rules, but a petition has been started to stop the sale of animals on Gumtree. People may be interested to sign. Why in earth would anyone support this? This is an uneducated and knee jerk reaction to not comprehending the bigger picture. We use Gumtree all the time to promote rescue dogs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Gumtree, it is no different to any other avenue to promote dogs. It's how people screen families which is what matters and if a family doesn't do this well it doesn't matter what advertising avenue they used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pjrt Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) I'd rather see a petition to stop the use of the stupid "breed" names slapped onto crossbreeds in order to extract a high dollar value for pups... Say I mated my Rottweiler to my Labrador, then advertised the pups as "Rottadors"... funnily enough people will pay more dollars for said pups with that "breed" name attached than they would if I advertised them as Rotti x Lab. Seriously, if a breed mix is not currently recognised by any registry, and the lineage is not traceable, then they are crossbreeds/mutts... simple. T. Your post once again brings up my stellar idea to breed PooPoos. The idea is to breed Poodles to Poodles, take part of the name from each breed, and voila! PooPoos at twice the price of a regular old Poodle. Marketing genius. Can you imagine the sum for a Chocolate PooPoo?? A Parti PooPoo?? A Blue PooPoo??? People are absolutely dumb enough to fall for it and genuinely think they have a new 'breed'. Edited April 3, 2015 by GrufLife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory the Doted One Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Registered and papered Poopoos no less! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pjrt Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Registered and papered Poopoos no less! yes, legit! I can hear the conversations at cafe footpaths across the nation as people discuss their PooPoos. On the down side I'm not sure how I'll cope when they start calling the salon to book their PooPoos in for a bath and trim. I guess I should start working on a breed trim...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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