huski Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) You don't have to be an e-collar hater to want regulation, and nor do you have to be ignorant about how they can be used. You don't have to believe they do nothing but cause pain, and you don't have to deny they can ever be a useful tool. Despite their illegal status, they are out there in NSW, and they are creating work for people like me. It's annoying as hell when your own industry is doing half the damage. Proponents are going to have a hard time convincing me trainers are competent enough to be allowed to use these things legally after some of the stories I've heard. It's lovely when someone shows you a video of their dog experiencing a very low level stimulation, but you can bet they are not putting up their videos of using it on higher levels unless they are so incompetent they don't know how obviously distressing it is. Stories you've heard or dogs you have actually seen damaged by ecollars Corvus? We see pet owners with dogs who have severe behaviourial problems here on a daily basis, after doing my job full time for the last 3.5 years I've never found one of those owners have even heard of an e-collar, never mind used one - yet their dogs have been severely damaged by poor training and/or poor management anyway... I wonder how if they haven't used e-collars? /sarcasm. I have a hard time believing even you actually believe your insinuation that "half the damage" to dogs is done by trainers using e-collars. It's not "lovely" to see a video of low stim e-collar training, it is how the tool is used properly. Suggesting people who do use e-collars are secretly using them on a high level is, at best, insulting. Abuse is in the user, not the tool. Edited November 12, 2015 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 It might help for anyone curious about modern ecollar training to view some videos on YouTube. A quick search showed me this one; No idea who this trainer is but the video demonstrates a trainer finding the working level for different dogs. It might give you a different picture on ecollar training if you aren't familiar with it. huski,...the video is all about finding the right level - I actually miss a few comments about the varying resistance of the fur: I would assume that moisture, clipped or not clipped, pressure of the collar (could even vary depending on the posture of the dog), even if the dog was bathed a day before would have an impact on how the dog feels the electric shock...so I guess you would have to go through this for every single trainings session? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) It might help for anyone curious about modern ecollar training to view some videos on YouTube. A quick search showed me this one; No idea who this trainer is but the video demonstrates a trainer finding the working level for different dogs. It might give you a different picture on ecollar training if you aren't familiar with it. huski,...the video is all about finding the right level - I actually miss a few comments about the varying resistance of the fur: I would assume that moisture, clipped or not clipped, pressure of the collar (could even vary depending on the posture of the dog), even if the dog was bathed a day before would have an impact on how the dog feels the electric shock...so I guess you would have to go through this for every single trainings session? Pretty much. You would always test the dogs working level and adjust accordingly. Keeping in mind there is only a very small difference between each level, so it's not like going from level 5 to 6 is going to give the dog a huge shock or anything like that. Edited November 12, 2015 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) AND to and have the skills to train them to lay down on the spot for a long period. How many people are we talking about, here? It may not have been intentional on your part but the way you 'worded' that could jepordise some new to dogs & make them think a down stay at distance is difficult, it might put some off what is a very easy to learn and put into practice exercise & jepordise their interest and enthusiasm to carry on. The down stay with distractions is one of the easiest canine safety exercises to teach, because it has the potential of being a life saving safety command it ranks little less important than the other 2 priority safety commands, the "leave" & "recall" equivilants, any first time pet dog owner can be taught the down stay very easily and very simply, it's highly inapropriate and detrimental for you to to try & portray it as some kind of gift from the gods to the chosen few. Video - down stay with distractions with a normal dog and a normal owner and amusing police intervention at end London UK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh8EuTyeFH4 . Edited November 12, 2015 by Denis Carthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) I actually miss a few comments about the varying resistance of the fur I'm not surprised you missed a "few" comments, however, one comment 'says it all'.....if the contact points are in contact with the 'fur' the collars will not and cannot activate . Edited November 12, 2015 by Denis Carthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) It might help for anyone curious about modern ecollar training to view some videos on YouTube. A quick search showed me this one; This is another except this was done in a central London restaurant, jan 2008. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxYcfmRw-Ws . Edited November 12, 2015 by Denis Carthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Stories you've heard or dogs you have actually seen damaged by ecollars Corvus? I say "stories" because I did not actually see the training that was done. I've seen the dogs, though, and heard the accounts. I am not the only one. We see pet owners with dogs who have severe behaviourial problems here on a daily basis, after doing my job full time for the last 3.5 years I've never found one of those owners have even heard of an e-collar, never mind used one Well.... I wonder where the ones I am seeing are coming from, then? I have a hard time believing even you actually believe your insinuation that "half the damage" to dogs is done by trainers using e-collars. I didn't say specifically by trainers using e-collars. I said by the industry. There are plenty of ways a professional can screw up a dog with or without an e-collar. It's funny how I've come to yearn for industry regulation since I started doing behavioural consulting. It's not "lovely" to see a video of low stim e-collar training, it is how the tool is used properly. Suggesting people who do use e-collars are secretly using them on a high level is, at best, insulting. Abuse is in the user, not the tool. I am not the one claiming that most trainers are using them on low levels when that is quite the opposite to what the only data we have on it suggests. To take this issue seriously, we need to stare it in the face. If most trainers are only using low levels, why do the collars even have the high levels? If it can make a dog vocalise, are you seriously comfortable with that tool being out there and in use, simply trusting that it won't be used to hurt a dog? This is exactly the same as the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" arguments. People aren't known for their good judgement, particularly when emotional. The tool that has the capacity to do harm is what does harm. If they weren't available, they could not be abused. If I wanted to use them regularly, I'd be petitioning the companies to change the design so they just aren't that powerful. If I were a good trainer only using them on low levels, it wouldn't affect me except to possibly make them a more socially accepted tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) I would be quite happy to see manufacturers make even lower output collars. Though vocalisstion can occur in training for many different reasons - including frustration or prey drive, so that is a poor judge of whether a training method is effective. Snook I'm sure there are people out there who misuse ecollars like they do any tool, but I'm sure if you took a poll of pet owners you would see the majority have never used an ecollar. Its a huge stretch to imply many severe behavior cases are caused by the misuse of the tool. ETA: we see plenty of clients who don't want to use certain methods or tools. We see a lot of clients who come to us for training in drive and dog sports and physical correction isn't part of that program. It's funny how some people opposed to the use of certain tools like to ignore or by pass the fact many of our programs don't use physical correction and training dogs in drive has always been what we are most known for. Edited November 12, 2015 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 The only venomous snake I would train my dog on is one that is freshly dead. No way would I risk envenomation during training. Just today I had a snake cover my 5 acres of mowed grass go right past the house, one asleep cat and one asleep working dog and I nearly stepped on it. I do everything to keep the bloody things off my 5 acres and on the other 1995 acres. Thankfully I had just finished riding my horse so all the dogs, bar the working dog were locked up. If not I know my new rescue would have been bitten. I teach all my dogs leave it with a very high level of positive reinforcement. Had I had the time this afternoon said snake would have been used with an e-collar to train my rescue. She came wearing a bark collar that didn't stop her too much, so I am not too worried about fallout from a correction from an ecollar. Now she never wears one as there is no need, but would I use an e-collar to train her? absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I would be worried about fallout, depending on what form it took. You absolutely can convince a dog they should actively go after something because it frightens them or startled them. It's the exact reason why one of my dogs is not trusted around cats. It would not be difficult for that dog to turn snakes from a neutral curiosity to something he feels needs to be somewhere else. He is pretty proactive about moving threatening stimuli to somewhere they can't threaten him so much, and it's way harder to convince him to leave it alone at this point than it is to convince him to leave it alone before he decides he won't stand for it. You would not necessarily know this about him if you didn't spend a lot of time with him. The response is probably uncommon in pet dogs, which means trainers are unprepared for it. I would have a huge problem on my hands if someone screwed up with him while trying to teach him an aversion. It could conceivably happen with any dog given the right set of conditions, and I as a trainer and behaviourist wouldn't necessarily know what those conditions are for dogs I don't know well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I have another question for those knowledgeable about the use of e collars - do dogs generally "get used to" a certain level of the stimulation and stop responding to it, meaning you need to increase the level to get the response again? A lady at the dog park near where I'm staying has one her dog and she said today that she's had to up the level of the shock (her term) as the dog had started ignoring the lower level she had been using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I would use it on my own dogs but only the ones I know could tolerate it in the way I was going to use it to train for snake avoidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 The only venomous snake I would train my dog on is one that is freshly dead. No way would I risk envenomation during training. Just today I had a snake cover my 5 acres of mowed grass go right past the house, one asleep cat and one asleep working dog and I nearly stepped on it. I do everything to keep the bloody things off my 5 acres and on the other 1995 acres. Thankfully I had just finished riding my horse so all the dogs, bar the working dog were locked up. If not I know my new rescue would have been bitten. I teach all my dogs leave it with a very high level of positive reinforcement. Had I had the time this afternoon said snake would have been used with an e-collar to train my rescue. She came wearing a bark collar that didn't stop her too much, so I am not too worried about fallout from a correction from an ecollar. Now she never wears one as there is no need, but would I use an e-collar to train her? absolutely. I'm not sure whether a dead snake would work at all. I did tracker work for a few years. People I worked with said that dogs got VERY confused by suicides: they follow the track up to near the body and then go wandering trying to figure out where the scent trail went. Dead people don't smell the same as living ones. I would guess the same is true of snakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 The only venomous snake I would train my dog on is one that is freshly dead. No way would I risk envenomation during training. Just today I had a snake cover my 5 acres of mowed grass go right past the house, one asleep cat and one asleep working dog and I nearly stepped on it. I do everything to keep the bloody things off my 5 acres and on the other 1995 acres. Thankfully I had just finished riding my horse so all the dogs, bar the working dog were locked up. If not I know my new rescue would have been bitten. I teach all my dogs leave it with a very high level of positive reinforcement. Had I had the time this afternoon said snake would have been used with an e-collar to train my rescue. She came wearing a bark collar that didn't stop her too much, so I am not too worried about fallout from a correction from an ecollar. Now she never wears one as there is no need, but would I use an e-collar to train her? absolutely. I'm not sure whether a dead snake would work at all. I did tracker work for a few years. People I worked with said that dogs got VERY confused by suicides: they follow the track up to near the body and then go wandering trying to figure out where the scent trail went. Dead people don't smell the same as living ones. I would guess the same is true of snakes. Yes that may be so and I have thought about that, but I am willing to try anything that might improve the odds of my dog/s not being bitten by a snake. I don't care if anyone else thinks it's useful or unethical or cruel or anything else. Until they have seen what I have, then I don't give their opinions much weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 (edited) but I am willing to try anything that might improve the odds of my dog/s not being bitten by a snake. Firstly, here in UK we do not have such snakes so there is no significant problems with them, there is one which has some mild venom but they seem quite rare,so in short, i am illiterate on that subject. Having read the posts on here on the venomous snake subject there seems to be a small number of people who would not take the steps needed to snake proof their dogs. I can only draw one possible conclusion from those factors, which is, those who live in areas where these type snake live & breed and who do not get their dog snake proofed to increase the chances of their dogs not being bitten should not have dogs at all and should not have had a dog in the first place knowing they would put its life at risk by not proofing it or having the proofing done by for them by experts. I suppose on a wider corridor there are people the world over who own dogs but who should never have had a dog in the first place, those referred to on here who would put their dogs life in the line by not getting it proofed in areas where that was used as a life saving safety proceedure should not have dogs at all, maybe if they read this I hope they consider rehoming their dog with someone who would proof it or alternatively rehome it in snake absent place in Oz! Maybe those who let these people have puppies in the first place should make it part of a contract these people do get them proofed with a fixed penalty if they default. . Edited November 13, 2015 by Denis Carthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Or maybe they just think 'e-collar your dog or have them die horribly' is a false dichotomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Best Dogs! Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I am in the city suburbs, we've had two dogs bitten by snakes all ready. One made it, one didn't....and unfortunately a friend of mine up in newcastle lost their old jrt x this week to a snake bite The council has posted out advice and newsletters on reducing snakes be keeping grass low etc etc. Even if you don't live near snakes in australia (damn near impossible, especially in summer when they come out and move down) - many people take their dogs with them to the beach or on camping trips or trails or the local dog park. I would think unless you lived in an apartment building in the CBD, you are near snakes - and even then the snakes have popped up in myers and city streets. I agree with snook, I wouldnt expect most people know about avoidance training. I didn't know about it either, it was just something I saw an opportunity to work on when teaching the dog to leave rabbits/lizards alone. So this thread was a surprise, but lots of information and different methods is coming out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 to give the snakes we have here down under some credit: luckily they are not aggressive and just want to be left alone. So for us humans - with open eyes - it is pretty easy to avoid any bites. We had so far red belly black snakes and eastern brown snakes in our garden (and I saw also a dead tiger snake on the road) and every time they just wanted to get away and hide (not the dead one on the road of course :D ), so I wasn't worried about this - but that was before we had our dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 It is interesting that snake avoidance/aversion training is not really available in Australia, whereas it is very much available in, say, the US. The main issue with snake avoidance training is the lack of evidence for efficacy. Would you shock your dog to install an aversion that might save its life? Yeah. But would you do it if you did not know if it would work and there is a risk of making your dog less safe? Would you do it if you knew a positive reinforcement based method was just as effective? Would you do it if you knew a PR method was 90% as effective for some dogs and more effective for others? We need data, and I think it is irresponsible of trainers to offer snake avoidance courses without being able to demonstrate how effective it is likely to be. When people will "do anything", then we as trainers must not exploit this, even inadvertently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) there are actually a few training opportunities out there: animal Ark - WA VDTA - Vic Dog Snake Avoidance Training - Perth 'another one in Perth' Edited:...e-collars are allowed in WA and Victoria (in Vic it is subject to exemptions under Reg 7E(2) / permitted under prescribed circumstances Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Regulations 1997 (Reg 7E(2)). See www.dpi.vic.gov.au/animalwelfare for details. more about legality here: Is the use of electronic dog collars legal?) Edited November 14, 2015 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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