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Not Something Often Seen


Kirislin
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I wonder how they get around registering that colour cause it's not listed in the standard.

I think they register as black with white ticking, just as they can register as white with black ticking - for racing anyway

Edited by anniek
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and here's snowflake Nick from Vic :) post-7647-0-73487400-1449141992_thumb.jpg

Oh wow! I didn't know what country those dogs were in. Do you know if this colour is passed down through certain lines? Was it just one puppy in the litter or several with this colour?

My understanding is it comes from Irish lines.

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Was reading a paper on Whippet colour genetics the other day and it mentions "dun" in Greyhounds. According to the author, the colour seems to have originated in Australia.

She says that genetically "dun" greyhounds should be sables and if mated to red, could produce black. If they are indeed "liver", this colour is unknown in both Whippets and Greyhounds. You can draw your own conclusions about how it got into the breed.

Sable is at the bottom of the K hierarchy (K, kbr, k). "Red" in greyhounds is sable so it's actually a sable to sable mating, which should NEVER produce black because both dogs should be kk.

As for the colour originating in Australia, I'd call bullshit on that also. Premier Fantasy's sire was Irish. His pedigree is mostly Irish dogs (with a few US dogs) until it gets back to the 1890s where it was UK dogs, until records runs out in 1820.

I'd be very interested in seeing what information the author drew her conclusions from.

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Was reading a paper on Whippet colour genetics the other day and it mentions "dun" in Greyhounds. According to the author, the colour seems to have originated in Australia.

She says that genetically "dun" greyhounds should be sables and if mated to red, could produce black. If they are indeed "liver", this colour is unknown in both Whippets and Greyhounds. You can draw your own conclusions about how it got into the breed.

Sable is at the bottom of the K hierarchy (K, kbr, k). "Red" in greyhounds is sable so it's actually a sable to sable mating, which should NEVER produce black because both dogs should be kk.

As for the colour originating in Australia, I'd call bullshit on that also. Premier Fantasy's sire was Irish. His pedigree is mostly Irish dogs (with a few US dogs) until it gets back to the 1890s where it was UK dogs, until records runs out in 1820.

I'd be very interested in seeing what information the author drew her conclusions from.

I wondered about that too.

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Was reading a paper on Whippet colour genetics the other day and it mentions "dun" in Greyhounds. According to the author, the colour seems to have originated in Australia.

She says that genetically "dun" greyhounds should be sables and if mated to red, could produce black. If they are indeed "liver", this colour is unknown in both Whippets and Greyhounds. You can draw your own conclusions about how it got into the breed.

Sable is at the bottom of the K hierarchy (K, kbr, k). "Red" in greyhounds is sable so it's actually a sable to sable mating, which should NEVER produce black because both dogs should be kk.

As for the colour originating in Australia, I'd call bullshit on that also. Premier Fantasy's sire was Irish. His pedigree is mostly Irish dogs (with a few US dogs) until it gets back to the 1890s where it was UK dogs, until records runs out in 1820.

I'd be very interested in seeing what information the author drew her conclusions from.

The author’s source on the dun colour was an article entitled Colour Inheritance in the Greyhound by Gavin Fitzpatrick, written in 1996. Mr Fitzpatrick was at the time of writing the article Keeper of the Australian & New Zealand Stud Book for Greyhounds He was also Secretary of the National Coursing Association of Victoria Inc. and his wife had been a greyhound breeder and trainer tor many years.

Her notes on the origins of the colour were derived from discussions in the greyhound press after the article was published. The author goes on to note:

Following his [Fitzpatrick's] analysis of his data base [of over 30,000 litters] and after consultation with geneticists from England and the USA he formuiated a 'Rule of Thumb' which in due time was put to the Annual Conference ofthe Australian and New Zealand Greyhound Association and all but one of his 'Rules'were passed(the one not passed was due to a difference of opinion between geneticists,he does not say

which one) However those Rules relating to colour inheritance are,I understand in force today

Edited by Haredown Whippets
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I've seen the liver noses in Italian Greyhounds too, but never seen a dun coloured dog although the ones with liver noses are an unusual colour, sort of orangy but probably recorded as fawn because of the limited descriptions allowed. So many of the breed standards need better descriptions regarding colour, just because it doesn't say it in the standard doesn't mean it doesn't exist or in some cases, the reverse, it might be described in the standard but in fact it doesn't exist, for example, the SBT standard describes solid black, but as far as I know all SBTs that appear black are actually brindle.

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quote name='Kirislin' timestamp='1449191588' post='6769598']

Is cream a dilute of liver because I've seen cream whippets. I've no idea how dun/liver got into the breed perhaps it has been there all along and just incorrectly recorded. :shrug:

According to my favourite Whippet colour genetics website cream is a masking gene.

Whippets and greyhounds apparently have identical colour genetics. Note that this website lists the white spotting gene.

Some of the unusual colours are pretty interesting.

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Was reading a paper on Whippet colour genetics the other day and it mentions "dun" in Greyhounds. According to the author, the colour seems to have originated in Australia.

She says that genetically "dun" greyhounds should be sables and if mated to red, could produce black. If they are indeed "liver", this colour is unknown in both Whippets and Greyhounds. You can draw your own conclusions about how it got into the breed.

Sable is at the bottom of the K hierarchy (K, kbr, k). "Red" in greyhounds is sable so it's actually a sable to sable mating, which should NEVER produce black because both dogs should be kk.

As for the colour originating in Australia, I'd call bullshit on that also. Premier Fantasy's sire was Irish. His pedigree is mostly Irish dogs (with a few US dogs) until it gets back to the 1890s where it was UK dogs, until records runs out in 1820.

I'd be very interested in seeing what information the author drew her conclusions from.

The author’s source on the dun colour was an article entitled Colour Inheritance in the Greyhound by Gavin Fitzpatrick, written in 1996. Mr Fitzpatrick was at the time of writing the article Keeper of the Australian & New Zealand Stud Book for Greyhounds He was also Secretary of the National Coursing Association of Victoria Inc. and his wife had been a greyhound breeder and trainer tor many years.

Her notes on the origins of the colour were derived from discussions in the greyhound press after the article was published. The author goes on to note:

Following his [Fitzpatrick's] analysis of his data base [of over 30,000 litters] and after consultation with geneticists from England and the USA he formuiated a 'Rule of Thumb' which in due time was put to the Annual Conference ofthe Australian and New Zealand Greyhound Association and all but one of his 'Rules'were passed(the one not passed was due to a difference of opinion between geneticists,he does not say

which one) However those Rules relating to colour inheritance are,I understand in force today

"Colour Inheritance in the Greyhound" is definitely not a work I'd be quoting to support that conclusion, mostly because Fitzpatrick does not reach that conclusion. At no point does he say that dun is anything other than what it is (regular liver). From looking through that bit again, it seems the woman who wrote the whippet article has gotten a little bit confused- He says more or less what I've said above and elsewhere through the thread: that dun is a modified black, that breeding a solid dun (as opposed to a dun fawn or a dun brindle) to a regular fawn or brindle will result in black pups because all duns must be at least Kk, giving a 50% chance for black.

Regarding origin of the gene, the UK or Ireland would always be the most obvious places because they are where the breed came from, was developed and exported heavily from. Unbacked speculation (that contradicts at least 200 years worth of records and really makes no sense) should be taken with a grain of salt.

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My favourite whippet colour page too, but I suspect it's out of date now. Are whippet and greyhound colour genetics identical, or just very similar? I've never seen a cream greyhound. Do they exist? :confused:

Cream is not listed as a colour option on the Greyhound database. I've seen some very, very pale fawns. As has been said before what colour a dog is registered as may be different to what they actually are.

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My favourite whippet colour page too, but I suspect it's out of date now. Are whippet and greyhound colour genetics identical, or just very similar? I've never seen a cream greyhound. Do they exist? :confused:

Cream is not listed as a colour option on the Greyhound database. I've seen some very, very pale fawns. As has been said before what colour a dog is registered as may be different to what they actually are.

Maybe Whippets got cream from the IG.

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My favourite whippet colour page too, but I suspect it's out of date now. Are whippet and greyhound colour genetics identical, or just very similar? I've never seen a cream greyhound. Do they exist? :confused:

Cream is not listed as a colour option on the Greyhound database. I've seen some very, very pale fawns. As has been said before what colour a dog is registered as may be different to what they actually are.

Yep, that's what I'm thinking.

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My favourite whippet colour page too, but I suspect it's out of date now. Are whippet and greyhound colour genetics identical, or just very similar? I've never seen a cream greyhound. Do they exist? :confused:

Cream is not listed as a colour option on the Greyhound database. I've seen some very, very pale fawns. As has been said before what colour a dog is registered as may be different to what they actually are.

Yep, that's what I'm thinking.

Probably lots of incorrect colour namings, given all the things that can change what we see.

On the bright side, more accurate and generally knowledgeable on matters relating to colour than the general public. I had a pound contact me to say they had a brown greyhound so I asked for a picture, thinking it very odd that we'd have a dun show up here in a pound but yeah, no. It was a thoroughly black greyhound with some kennel coat *eye roll* As for fawn.. it's usually "tan", "beige" or one time.. "camel".

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My favourite whippet colour page too, but I suspect it's out of date now. Are whippet and greyhound colour genetics identical, or just very similar? I've never seen a cream greyhound. Do they exist? :confused:

Cream is not listed as a colour option on the Greyhound database. I've seen some very, very pale fawns. As has been said before what colour a dog is registered as may be different to what they actually are.

Yep, that's what I'm thinking.

Probably lots of incorrect colour namings, given all the things that can change what we see.

On the bright side, more accurate and generally knowledgeable on matters relating to colour than the general public. I had a pound contact me to say they had a brown greyhound so I asked for a picture, thinking it very odd that we'd have a dun show up here in a pound but yeah, no. It was a thoroughly black greyhound with some kennel coat *eye roll* As for fawn.. it's usually "tan", "beige" or one time.. "camel".

I get the camel colour totally :D

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