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Dewclaws

'not A Man Made Breed '

36 posts in this topic

karen15   

Going by the snippet above, I take it to mean that there was no thought out breeding to produce the dog as it appears today. Yes, the best dogs may have been selected for desirable traits, but there was no intent to produce a breed.

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Dewclaws   

Most breeds were bred for function way before looks ? I don't get your point?

The other breed I own is Labradors who originally came from St. John's dog breed in Newfoundland . The dog had a otter type tail good for swimming, webbed paws good for swimming , double cost that repels icy cold water . Great retrieving skills for the fishermen in Newfoundland . Sure they were refined in England later and renamed Labradors but they existed because they were selectively bred by ' man ' to have these attributes to help him in harsh conditions . There is nothing natural about it unless you think humans need to selective breed is a natural human instinct .

Sight hounds often come from hot climates so have thinner coats, scent hounds have supreme sense of smell to track with . All manipulated by human breeding .

Breeds are not just about appearances .

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Dewclaws   

I have read elsewhere that cairn are a ' natural looking ' meaning they are no frills , they are as rough and tough looking as the rugged highlands they originate in . I often joke how scary a cairn would look if they were the size of a German shepherd . Big and solid beast with cheeky eyes lol . Nevertheless a dog that Is Very suitable to its climate was still created by man to be like that .its just practical .

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espinay2   

Given the long history of the breed I can see what they may be getting at even if the wording may be controversial. What they are IMO referring to is the breed as a 'landrace'. A landrace is a definable type that develops in a specific geographical area in relation to local pressures but may not be specifically bred for/created in any organised way (though individuals may certainly select 'good dogs' for their purpose') or named as a breed until later in its history. Most of the livestock guardian breeds developed this way for instance. Often landrace breeds can also be 'key' breeds used to develop other breeds. For example, the Pyrenean Mountain Dog is a landrace breed with a long history whose development is lost in time, which developed in a specific geographic area for a specific use - being shaped more by its surroundings and local culture than by any specific effort or goal by those that bred them. It was later on named and a standard developed based on what it was - not what people wanted it to be. The breed was used to develop other breeds including the Leonberger, Newfoundland and St Bernard. It differs from these later breeds in that it is what it has 'always' been. The same could be said of breeds like the Saluki. They are breeds which exist - but no one really knows how or when they came to exist as that is lost in time and not documented in any written history. They are breeds that just 'are' and have not been created by modern Victorian breeding practices.

Edited to add: the Dingo is a landrace. Like the Basenji, New Guinea Singing dog, Canaan dog etc. The Dingo BTW, does have a breed standard and is recognised as a breed by the ANKC (unlike other breeds though the breed is not for exhibition). The Dingo is in the Hound group: http://ankc.org.au/Breed/Detail/127

Edited by espinay2

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Dewclaws   

Thanks espinay2 that makes heaps more sense . Perhaps the editor of this site can use that description in relation to the cairn terrier because in that context it does make sense . Perhaps a better description would be that man and the natural landscape of the environment created the breed . I would say that with all early dog breeds this would be the case though . Yet there is no escaping the fact that domestication of dogs was strongly guided by humans . I guess though the question is what makes a breed ?

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That's just silly. All dog breeds are man made.

Yep!

no...only domestic dogs are man made; there are a lot of other dogs out there where humans didn't interfere much with breeding, e.g. dingo.

I though it was obvious we were referring to domestic dogs.

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Willem   

That's just silly. All dog breeds are man made.

Yep!

no...only domestic dogs are man made; there are a lot of other dogs out there where humans didn't interfere much with breeding, e.g. dingo.

I though it was obvious we were referring to domestic dogs.

...the Carolina dog became a domestic dog after his discovery, but wasn't man made...same can be said about the Canaan dog...or the Jindo...these are all dogs shaped by their natural environment and not intentionally by humans. Humans domesticated them respectively use them as pets or work dogs after recognising their values.

Edited by Willem

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Dewclaws   

Considering the dwarfism in cairn terriers from the original canine ( grey wolves ) in environment it's obvious that human intervention is much more intense than other landrace dogs mentioned ..

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DobieMum   

With "Not a man made breed", could they be talking about not a dog man put together. For example the dobermann, was a dog that someone used specific breeds crossed, to come up with a dog that he wanted for a specific purpose. From what your talking about and from the little i know about Cairn Terriers they have just "evolved" naturally, with the specific example above??

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Dewclaws   

Ultimately I think what they meant was that the selective breeding happened over many hundreds perhaps thousands years instead for example the Australian terrier that has happened within the last 150 years . However the cairn terrier is in existence due to man . Man needed a small hardy canine to keep vermin down . They might not of started the breeding with stud books and a particular ' type' in mind but the breeding was managed by keeping pups in particular litters that did the job they needed the best and generation after generation created cairn terriers . Then more selective breeding created of shoots like west highland terrier, Sky terrier, border terrier and Scottish terrier . Which came about by modern breeding practices that was more concerned with colours, coat length and conformation ..

But the first sentence ' cairn terriers are not a man made breed 'irks me ' cairn terriers are a landrace breed' is much better even though the extreme dwarfism makes me think they probably don't fit in to that category either .

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Considering the dwarfism in cairn terriers from the original canine ( grey wolves ) in environment it's obvious that human intervention is much more intense than other landrace dogs mentioned ..

dwarfism can also be caused by not quite enough food...

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Diva   

You can also get something called insular dwarfism, where populations in physically small locations such as on islands get smaller in body size. I am not describing it quite right, but for islands the general rule is that large animals get smaller and small animals get bigger. Artificial island effects from things like isolated mountain tops or valleys can get the same effect.

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Dewclaws   

Yeah but deer hounds would have sheltered by the same fire as a cairn terrier . Yet deer hounds are taller than any grey wolves that would have lived in the same natural environment .

Yet deer hounds and cairn terriers coat texture is pretty much identical .

Nah cairn were bred for hunting small vermin and deer hounds for hunting large prey . And size was manipulated by humans by selective breeding . Nothing natural about that .

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Missymoo   

Interesting topic..

I am going to share the question on a worldwide breeder FB page and see what thoughts pop up.

Cairns originally went by the name of the "Long Legged Skye Terrier'

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Interesting topic..

I am going to share the question on a worldwide breeder FB page and see what thoughts pop up.

Cairns originally went by the name of the "Long Legged Skye Terrier'

Or according to the history on the Cairn Terrier UK page... Link I provided earlier in this thread.

At Inverness Show in 1909 her dogs were entered as Short-Haired Skyes or Prick-eared Skyes

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Dewclaws   

Yes from my history lesson they were described as a short haired Skye terrier which got the sky terrier breeders and fanciers frothing at the mouth so then became ' cairn terriers' named after the rocky stone mounds scattered in the Scottish highlands that they flushed vermin from .

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