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Bigsley

Puppy Registration - Mislead By Breeder

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Bigsley   

I purchased a pure bred Saint Bernard puppy from a registered breeder. Prior to deciding to purchase, she advised me that the price ($2500) included registration. I asked her what this meant, because I wanted to clarify if it meant lifetime registration on the NSW companion animal register. She wasn't very succinct in her answer, but I understood that it was registration to do with his breeding rather than the companion animal register.

I recently received a form in the post from her, titled "Application to transfer registered ownership of dog". The form is to be returned to my State ANKC member body, with payment.

I emailed the breeder as I was confused. "I'm a bit confused about the transfer form you sent me. It says it is to be sent to Dogs NSW with the applicable fee, but you advised me that the price

for the puppy included registration. The back of the form shows the date of registration as 19/05/2016, after my puppy had come home with me, but shows you as the registered owner."

Her response - "Yes the puppy is registered. The breeder is the only one who can register puppies. It is the new owners responsibility to transfer the ownership. The puppy is registered!!! The transfer of ownership is your responsibility."

It's disappointing that she wasn't clear about this part of the process, and I do find it misleading that she stated registration is included in the purchase of puppies, but is not including transfer of that registration to me. She is registered as the owner of my puppy unless I pay an additional fee. She never mentioned that this transfer was required even though I asked about the registration. The amount is irrelevant.

This is the first time I have purchased an animal through any breeder. Previously I have purchased through RSPCA or rescues. I contacted five registered breeders to ask questions before purchasing, although I didn't ask about the registration with any of the other breeders.

Is this common practice? From what she said to me prior to the purchase I would have expected her to cover this fee. For the price I paid, I would have expected transfer of ownership to be included. It should have at least been mentioned. Putting aside the fact that he is a much loved family member, I paid for something and it became mine, yet she is still recorded as the owner. Perhaps other customers don't give it any thought because it's such a small charge compared to the price of the puppy, but I am a bit pedantic about honesty and principles.

Even though breeders are the only ones who can do the registration, do they have the option to state a different owner?

Also, the date of registration is a little over two months after my puppy's birth date. Is that normal, as I would have expected it to be done sooner?

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ness   

All sounds fairly normal to me. I have had to sign a transfer form for one of my interstate puppies and another I had to sign paperwork which went back to breeder before the litter were registered. Having said that I wasn't required to pay a fee but each canine association seems to be a little different and its possible the breeder paid the fee.

In relation to the date of registration being two months after your puppies date of birth - thats perfectly normal. Litters are not usually registered until the puppies go home (especially if letting puppy people pick registered names). Breeders don't necessarily settle on the puppy they are keeping until they are 7-8 weeks - so this is when the breeder will submit paperwork to the relevant canine association with the name of the puppies.

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I purchased a pure bred Saint Bernard puppy from a registered breeder. Prior to deciding to purchase, she advised me that the price ($2500) included registration. I asked her what this meant, because I wanted to clarify if it meant lifetime registration on the NSW companion animal register. She wasn't very succinct in her answer, but I understood that it was registration to do with his breeding rather than the companion animal register.

I recently received a form in the post from her, titled "Application to transfer registered ownership of dog". The form is to be returned to my State ANKC member body, with payment.

I emailed the breeder as I was confused. "I'm a bit confused about the transfer form you sent me. It says it is to be sent to Dogs NSW with the applicable fee, but you advised me that the price

for the puppy included registration. The back of the form shows the date of registration as 19/05/2016, after my puppy had come home with me, but shows you as the registered owner."

Her response - "Yes the puppy is registered. The breeder is the only one who can register puppies. It is the new owners responsibility to transfer the ownership. The puppy is registered!!! The transfer of ownership is your responsibility."

It's disappointing that she wasn't clear about this part of the process, and I do find it misleading that she stated registration is included in the purchase of puppies, but is not including transfer of that registration to me. She is registered as the owner of my puppy unless I pay an additional fee. She never mentioned that this transfer was required even though I asked about the registration. The amount is irrelevant.

This is the first time I have purchased an animal through any breeder. Previously I have purchased through RSPCA or rescues. I contacted five registered breeders to ask questions before purchasing, although I didn't ask about the registration with any of the other breeders.

Is this common practice? From what she said to me prior to the purchase I would have expected her to cover this fee. For the price I paid, I would have expected transfer of ownership to be included. It should have at least been mentioned. Putting aside the fact that he is a much loved family member, I paid for something and it became mine, yet she is still recorded as the owner. Perhaps other customers don't give it any thought because it's such a small charge compared to the price of the puppy, but I am a bit pedantic about honesty and principles.

Even though breeders are the only ones who can do the registration, do they have the option to state a different owner?

Also, the date of registration is a little over two months after my puppy's birth date. Is that normal, as I would have expected it to be done sooner?

All perfectly normal, I believe in Qld and maybe WA puppies can be registered direct to new owners but in other states the breeder does it in their name...........this registration is only to put the puppy on the ANKC database of purebred dogs.....thousands of puppies would still be in their breeders names because pet owners never transferred them..............but that is only ownership of the dog for ANKC purposes, the dog is yours. In Victoria a pet can be transferred into a pet owners name without them having to join Dogs Victoria, each state is different

The date of registration is the date the paperwork was processed in the office, it may have been submitted by the breeder weeks before, due to microchip laws, the earliest puppies registrations would be submitted in Victoria is 6 weeks as they are usually chipped at vaccination, plus some breeders now wait a little longer to vaccinate

This breeder IMHO has done everything right, you should have maybe done some more homework on what "registration" meant and who with, I believe the breeder assumed you had!!

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Ruffles   

All perfectly normal, I believe in Qld and maybe WA puppies can be registered direct to new owners but in other states the breeder does it in their name...........this registration is only to put the puppy on the ANKC database of purebred dogs.....thousands of puppies would still be in their breeders names because pet owners never transferred them..............but that is only ownership of the dog for ANKC purposes, the dog is yours. In Victoria a pet can be transferred into a pet owners name without them having to join Dogs Victoria, each state is different

The date of registration is the date the paperwork was processed in the office, it may have been submitted by the breeder weeks before, due to microchip laws, the earliest puppies registrations would be submitted in Victoria is 6 weeks as they are usually chipped at vaccination, plus some breeders now wait a little longer to vaccinate

This breeder IMHO has done everything right, you should have maybe done some more homework on what "registration" meant and who with, I believe the breeder assumed you had!!

This, 100%.

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ish   

Also, having their pedigree registration certificate in the breeders name has nothing to do with ownership of the puppy - lots of pet puppies stay forever in the breeders name.

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tdierikx   

In simple terms, the breeder has paid her state ANKC member body to register the litter of pups her dog(s) have had... and what you now need to do is to transfer that registration into your own name and with your state ANKC member body.

The breeder most likely submitted all of her litter registration paperwork to her state body some weeks prior to getting them all back... the process can take some time to get it all checked and issued by the state body, and that's why the registration papers have a later date on them.

The breeder has not misled you, or tried to rip you off...

T.

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Rebanne   

Puppies often aren't registered until they around 8 weeks old. So totally normal. Breeders wait until then to decide which register the pups go on - limited or main.

I have never paid the transfer fee for any pup. I am in Vic. What I include is what your breeder has done. Registered the pup with my governing body. I do sign and date the registration papers and then it is up to the new owners on whether they want to join their states governing body and transfer the official papers into their name. As far as I know, once you have the signed and dated papers in your hand that is proof of ownership. There is no need to transfer into your bame unless you want to compete in any dog sports or maybe breed.

I think your breeder has done everything right and I find it a bit sad you don't feel you can ask them this yourself.

Also any council rego is always up to the new owner though I understand NSW us different to Vic

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I purchased a pure bred Saint Bernard puppy from a registered breeder. Prior to deciding to purchase, she advised me that the price ($2500) included registration. I asked her what this meant, because I wanted to clarify if it meant lifetime registration on the NSW companion animal register. She wasn't very succinct in her answer, but I understood that it was registration to do with his breeding rather than the companion animal register.

I recently received a form in the post from her, titled "Application to transfer registered ownership of dog". The form is to be returned to my State ANKC member body, with payment.

I emailed the breeder as I was confused. "I'm a bit confused about the transfer form you sent me. It says it is to be sent to Dogs NSW with the applicable fee, but you advised me that the price

for the puppy included registration. The back of the form shows the date of registration as 19/05/2016, after my puppy had come home with me, but shows you as the registered owner."

Her response - "Yes the puppy is registered. The breeder is the only one who can register puppies. It is the new owners responsibility to transfer the ownership. The puppy is registered!!! The transfer of ownership is your responsibility."

It's disappointing that she wasn't clear about this part of the process, and I do find it misleading that she stated registration is included in the purchase of puppies, but is not including transfer of that registration to me. She is registered as the owner of my puppy unless I pay an additional fee. She never mentioned that this transfer was required even though I asked about the registration. The amount is irrelevant.

This is the first time I have purchased an animal through any breeder. Previously I have purchased through RSPCA or rescues. I contacted five registered breeders to ask questions before purchasing, although I didn't ask about the registration with any of the other breeders.

Is this common practice? From what she said to me prior to the purchase I would have expected her to cover this fee. For the price I paid, I would have expected transfer of ownership to be included. It should have at least been mentioned. Putting aside the fact that he is a much loved family member, I paid for something and it became mine, yet she is still recorded as the owner. Perhaps other customers don't give it any thought because it's such a small charge compared to the price of the puppy, but I am a bit pedantic about honesty and principles.

Even though breeders are the only ones who can do the registration, do they have the option to state a different owner?

Also, the date of registration is a little over two months after my puppy's birth date. Is that normal, as I would have expected it to be done sooner?

NSW Companion Animal Register is different to ANKC Registration. I'm in WA so am not entirely sure, but I think the Companion Animal Register would be similar to Council registration that we have over here and would be necessary for ALL dogs, pedigree or not. ANKC registration only refers to pedigree animals or Associate registration for non-pedigree performance dogs.

Registered ownership of the dog is mostly used for dogs going to show or performance homes. Most pet owners don't want to become a member of their state's membership body (ANKC) so your breeder probably didn't think of it being a problem for you. As far as I know it's not possible to register a puppy with anyone but the breeder as the owner, plus it would require all puppy buyers to already be members and to become a member you must have a dog (hence becoming a member & transferring the puppy at the same time).

With every animal I have bought and sold (horses & dogs), transfer & becoming a member with the relevant society or registry has been my responsibility.

It's nothing to do with honesty and principles, it's just how things are done and if it's not what you were expecting it can be a little bit confusing. I'm sure the breeder thought she had explained it well enough but she may not have realised what part you had a problem with.

Edited by Scootaloo

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All normal. This breeder has done nothing wrong.

To help you understand, imagine the puppy was a car. when you purchase a used car it may be registered, but it won't be registered in your name, you still have to transfer the registration into your name.

Now to go one step further, even if the breeder was in one of the states where she could transfer or register the puppy directly into your name from the get go, you still would have had to become a member of your state canine council before she could do that.

You have not at all been mislead.

Puppies are typically not microchipped until at least 6 weeks of age, breeders must take their time to select which puppy/ies they will run on for themselves, other prospective show homes and so on before the pets are allocated. From your description she has done this in a very timely fashion, faster than many breeders.

Breeders explain so much to puppy owners. It is not up to them to mind read exactly how much info you know regarding registration and how much you don't know. She has no doubt been busy offering you a lot of helpful information on how to raise, train and feed your puppy the right way.

It is a shame that you have jumped to this conclusion, rather than asked questions in a humble fashion or check with the breeder. I am sure if you asked her she would be very happy to explain exactly what has been explained here.

CAR and council registration are separate registries again. Council registration is always 100% up to the new owner. CAR can be transferred by the breeder or by the new owner, no rules about which was it should be done, whichever the breeder chooses.

All the very best with your new puppy

Edited by Starkehre

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Guest crazydoglady99   
Guest crazydoglady99

I could be wrong here.. but isn't the NSW companion animal register for the microchip?

Edit to say ..

CONGRATULATIONS!!! We seem to be missing a photo..

Edited by crazydoglady99

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tdierikx   

NSW has the Companion Animal Register - for microchip details, AND local council animal registration fees. The OP will also need to make sure that both are in their name, and current. The breeder, if interstate, is not responsible for either of those...

T.

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juice   

Yes i would liken it to buying a car, its upto you to change the ownership.

When i got mine ,breeder signed the transfer papers and i registered her with council, thats all.

I think you are being a bit harsh on the breeder, which is a shame as you have years of knowledge on the breed you have just broken a contact line to.

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I think people are being a little harsh. The OP did ask the questions they thought they needed to ask from several breeders, including the one who bred their pup. They then asked the breeder for clarification on this particular issue but still didn't quite understand the response. I don't think they have damaged future communication with the breeder. For some this is a lot of money and unexpected costs need to be understood. I am also someone whose dogs have all come through rescue for decades so this is as clear as mud to those of you who breed or who have recent experiences of of registering and transferring ownership but it took me a full read through to say I think I understand the entire process. The OP just needed some assurances and I'm sure they feel a lot better now you have explained the situation.

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If a NSW breeder

The breeder is responsible for chipping the puppy and registering the litter with Dogs NSW

The breeder is responsible for ensuring a change of ownership (microchip c3a) form is completed by the buyer and the breeder submits it to their council.

The breeder is responsible for signing the back of the pedigree and forwarding the pedigree papers on to the buyer

The buyer is then responsible for registering the puppy with their local council with the confirmation of transfer arrives from the breeders local council. It's a white a4 piece of paper.

The buyer is responsible for transferring the puppy into their name with Dogs NSW by submitting the pedigree and appropriate fee to dogs nsw

Sounds like the breeder has done all they need to .

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Dogsfevr   

The breeder has done everything correct .its seems you do not understand the correct registration bodies which is ashame as you are blaming the breeder for all the wrong reasons.

I think you have very much presumed things ,her price would mean $2500 registered with DogsNSW exactly what the pup is .

She has supplied you with the papers & the form & all you have to do is submit the papers whether you plan to join DogsNSW is up to you .Once submitted the papers will be returned to you in your name .

You have no been misled or ripped off ,sounds like you have a great breeder who has supplied all paperwork in a good timely fashion

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Registered ownership of the dog is mostly used for dogs going to show or performance homes. Most pet owners don't want to become a member of their state's membership body (ANKC) so your breeder probably didn't think of it being a problem for you. As far as I know it's not possible to register a puppy with anyone but the breeder as the owner, plus it would require all puppy buyers to already be members and to become a member you must have a dog (hence becoming a member & transferring the puppy at the same time).

This is incorrect. You do not require membership of your state Canine Control to own an ANKC registered dog. You require membership to exhibit it, compete in dog sports or breed.

Sounds like miscommunication rather than a deliberate attempt to mislead. Most pedigree dog folk refer to "registered" as being ANKC registered (ie has a registered pedigree). ONLY the owner of a dog can life time register it with council. When you think about that for a moment, you'll see it makes perfect sense.

If you don't care about the pup's papers being in your name, life time register the pup on the Companion ANimal Register and don't worry about transferring the papers. But DO make you you transfer the microchip details to your home - very important if the pup goes walk about.

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Bigsley   

Thanks for the helpful responses. It does seem that it was a miscommunication/misunderstanding. Dogs NSW advised me that breeders in NSW do have to be recorded as the owner on initial registration. They also confirmed that in NSW the breeder can handle the transfer of registration to the new owner, and that a new owner doesn't need to be a member.

I can see from a breeder's perspective it makes sense, because they know that their name has to be recorded as the owner (except QLD). I think the QLD process is better, in the sense that at the time of registration whoever is the current owner can be registered as the owner.

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Thanks for the helpful responses. It does seem that it was a miscommunication/misunderstanding. Dogs NSW advised me that breeders in NSW do have to be recorded as the owner on initial registration. They also confirmed that in NSW the breeder can handle the transfer of registration to the new owner, and that a new owner doesn't need to be a member.

I can see from a breeder's perspective it makes sense, because they know that their name has to be recorded as the owner (except QLD). I think the QLD process is better, in the sense that at the time of registration whoever is the current owner can be registered as the owner.

When these sorts of issues come up, may I suggest a frank discussion with the pup's breeder. You've got yourself a giant breed, they take a lot of care to raise well and the best source of advice for that will be the breeder. A good relationship between breeder and owner can be of such benefit to you as a new owner and most breeders are keen to assist. :)

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Diva   

What the breeder did is standard practice, and many pet owners never bother to transfer the registration. In the ACT I registered straight into the new owners names but I don't think this is an option in many states.

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Tassie   

The world of purebred dogs can be a bit confusing at first .. especially with the word 'registered' having a couple of meanings.

And the time of registration of the litter can vary .. my youngest dog came to me from interstate at 10 weeks .. which was when the breeder sent the ANKC registration papers in. It was a case, where, as ness said, the breeder was taking time to decide whether she was going to keep 'my' lad or his brother .. so those papers would have been dated more than 10 weeks post birth, but for a good reason.

So glad you were able to get it cleared up here ... although DOL can get a bit snippy at times, it is a really valuable resource ... as is your breeder :D: .

And big congratulations on your 'little' Saint .. lots of fun ahead .. and hopefully photos for us to drool over .. and I did use the word drool deliberately :rofl:

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