The Spotted Devil Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 We used to call Em a little terror(-ist) :laugh: He is gorgeous! Embrace the drive and energy - I know it's hard when they are young and crazy but oh my he will be one of your great teachers. If you are after a bit of coaching I can highly recommend Fenzi online courses. Very affordable at Bronze. I love Susan Garrett but it can seem a bit expensive and not as achievable at first. Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 Awesome, I will take a look at it, thank you! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) Can I just add that I really dislike "leave it" commands...because the dog has already got the idea in their heads and then "leave it" becomes a cue. It's counterintuitive but it's true. Collar grab: touch collar, give treat, touch collar, give treat...etc repeat ad infinitum until your dog thinks that being grabbed by the collar is AWESOME! So you don't use it to punish but as a cue to recall and as an emergency GRAB if pup is being a pain. I can put my hand out and my youngster throws herself into it. Recalls under distraction when pup can't hear you = normal. As I said put pup on leash and practice easy recalls with cats around and amazing treats. ETA: I have one gate on the laundry and another on the living room to hallway - much more freedom for kitties. And saves pup shredding/toileting etc. Living area and kitchen are puppy safe zones. No shoes, socks, etc yes, it becomes a cue, but that's actually the requirement that would allow punishment (re. corvus' comment post #7) or corrections as consequence if the dog doesn't respond to the cue. The dog doesn't know that he shouldn't chase the cats - the 'LEAVE-IT' cue, once taught, will communicate the message to the dog and the cats will be marked as 'LEAVE-IT' items. @ the OP / shekinah wrt methods playing take-it / leave-it games without the flirt pole (Rotties are indeed not suitable athletes for this game - too heavy and not agile enough): you can start just with 'tug of war' using a toy. Use a toy with a flat surface where you don't have problems to retrieve it when you teach the 'LEAVE-IT' cue. Dog is only allowed to take it on the 'TAKE-IT' cue. Lots of rewards (treats and another turn) and he will learn the cues fast. Later you can attach a rope (thick rope, not for the strength but to avoid nasty cuts) to the toy and pull it behind you - that simulates a real chase game better than just 'tug of war' without the risks involved in the flirt pole game. Eta: the 'LEAVE-IT' cue has also the advantage - once the dog understands the cue - that it can be used for all other animals (and objects). E.g. you walk the dog and bird or other wildlife catches his attention - he might know now that he is not allowed to chase cats, but he wasn't taught that he is not allowed to chase all these other interesting creatures....again, the 'LEAVE-IT' cue would allow to communicate the message easily. Edited June 20, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 He is a very confident puppy, and very exhuberant. So far punishments haven't worked, so should I continue or not? If I should how should I go about it? Because growling and putting him in time out hasn't changed anything at all. The problem with time outs is that it's hard to make it happen quickly enough after unwanted behaviour for the dog to learn the association between the unwanted behaviour and time out. As much as Gary Wilkes is kind of crazy sometimes, "bopping" dogs with something soft like a towel or pillow is a pretty god way to punish IMO. It's mild but startling. If you can hide behind a couch when you do it, the dog need never know you were the one that threw it at them. I wouldn't use a leave it cue as well. Pup just has to learn that going after the cat results in pillows coming from the sky. Of course, if he likes to rip up pillows, use something else! Always make sure you reward profusely for the next acceptable response. Doesn't matter what it is. If you'd rather try positive reinforcement methods first, go ahead. It might work, and then you've not taken the risks that come with punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I don't believe that 'punishing' with a pillow or a towel and a 'BUHU' will work - especially if it is a confident dog: the hunting / chasing instinct is a very strong instinct and while throwing a pillow might interrupt the chase (it is a Rottweiler, I don't think he will be bothered too much by a pillow), it won't leave an impact for long. Nature / evolution took care that 'predators' won't give up so easily on hunting, also when there are mishaps sometimes. To eliminate the chase via punishment it would need some stronger stimuli, and the stronger the stimuli the higher the risk that it will cause other behavioral issues. And there is the challenge to find the correct level of the punishing stimuli with the first attempt(s). I'm not against punishment, but in this case I wouldn't do it - it might work 90% of the time, but then there are the last 10% when he is not supervised and a little bit bored and recognises the golden opportunity....you get the picture. The leave-it cue will allow to mark the cat as a leave-it item over time; once taught, it is easy to reinforce and after a while it becomes imprinted that cats are no prey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Not really. My dogs and cats snuggle together but I have no doubt they would chase an unfamiliar cat given the opportunity. Dogs don't generalise particularly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph M Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Not really. My dogs and cats snuggle together but I have no doubt they would chase an unfamiliar cat given the opportunity. Dogs don't generalise particularly well. Yep. Same with Rosie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentchild Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Just to give you some hope, here are some pictures of my dear Rottie Emma with her best friend Jiji kitty. Not all Rotties are cat killers. :) I was nervous about having a cat with her too and armed with a bucketload of manic PMs to TSD (remember those days TSD, LOL) and her very sound advice, was very careful with introductions and giving the cat safe places, etc etc. Emma was very gentle with her kitty and played very softly softly with her even tho Jiji was a psycho and actually wanted to get Emma to chase her! They were best pals and at night when Emma put herself in her crate to sleep Jiji would jump on the crate and sleep there to be closer to her. Then poor Emma lost an eye to glaucoma and it was the turn of my manic psycho Jiji kitty to learn to be very gentle gentle with her pal. They were thick as thieves and little Jiji grieved when Emma died. Luckily now she has Breeze as her new best buddy, much to her chagrin. :laugh: With Breeze, her new bestie. Your Rottie pup looks gorgeous, good luck with it and I hope my shameless pic spam has given you some hope! Rotties are amazing dogs that are very adaptable, Emma was no exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Just to give you some hope, here are some pictures of my dear Rottie Emma with her best friend Jiji kitty. Not all Rotties are cat killers. :) I was nervous about having a cat with her too and armed with a bucketload of manic PMs to TSD (remember those days TSD, LOL) and her very sound advice, was very careful with introductions and giving the cat safe places, etc etc. Emma was very gentle with her kitty and played very softly softly with her even tho Jiji was a psycho and actually wanted to get Emma to chase her! They were best pals and at night when Emma put herself in her crate to sleep Jiji would jump on the crate and sleep there to be closer to her. Then poor Emma lost an eye to glaucoma and it was the turn of my manic psycho Jiji kitty to learn to be very gentle gentle with her pal. They were thick as thieves and little Jiji grieved when Emma died. Luckily now she has Breeze as her new best buddy, much to her chagrin. :laugh: With Breeze, her new bestie. Your Rottie pup looks gorgeous, good luck with it and I hope my shameless pic spam has given you some hope! Rotties are amazing dogs that are very adaptable, Emma was no exception. You are a bright shining star silentchild! Lovely photos! Edited June 21, 2016 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Not really. My dogs and cats snuggle together but I have no doubt they would chase an unfamiliar cat given the opportunity. Dogs don't generalise particularly well. Yep. Same with Rosie. ...ok....The leave-it cue will allow to mark the cat living together with the dog (Lincoln) as a leave-it item over time; once taught, it is easy to reinforce and after a while it becomes imprinted that cats that are living together with Lincoln are no prey. Outside the house, on walks, the 'Leave-it' cue still works, but in case a cat crosses the dog's path you would have (likely) cue it again to discourage the dog chasing the cat...or whatever other animal it will be. We have no cat(s) or other animals living in the house, so I can't test it, but I use 'leave-it' quite often on walks for other wildlife or cattle she is keen to chase. I could start some training with her guinea pigs that are living in 2 compounds in the backyard so (no problems to call her back from the compounds). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Thank you for all the advice, I really appreciate it all and it's been very helpful and given me hope that we can sort this out :) I've had two other Rottweilers before, and a German Shepherd Dog and they were all very good with my cats right from the start... Lincoln is just so busy and full on and confident that cats are there for the chase and the pounce and he will stand over them. Hopefully using some of these ideas will help us get to a point where he is as good with them as my other dogs were. Edited June 21, 2016 by shekhina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Kisses Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Man I love my "leave it" command. It's kind of become a catch all. "Leave it" means stop whatever you're doing and good things will come... Did not know it could be a bad thing?! Anyway, carry on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I don't believe that 'punishing' with a pillow or a towel and a 'BUHU' will work - especially if it is a confident dog: the hunting / chasing instinct is a very strong instinct and while throwing a pillow might interrupt the chase (it is a Rottweiler, I don't think he will be bothered too much by a pillow), it won't leave an impact for long. Nature / evolution took care that 'predators' won't give up so easily on hunting, also when there are mishaps sometimes. To eliminate the chase via punishment it would need some stronger stimuli, and the stronger the stimuli the higher the risk that it will cause other behavioral issues. And there is the challenge to find the correct level of the punishing stimuli with the first attempt(s). I'm not against punishment, but in this case I wouldn't do it - it might work 90% of the time, but then there are the last 10% when he is not supervised and a little bit bored and recognises the golden opportunity....you get the picture. The leave-it cue will allow to mark the cat as a leave-it item over time; once taught, it is easy to reinforce and after a while it becomes imprinted that cats are no prey. It didn't sound like actual predatory chasing. I've used this method once to stop a dog tearing up carpet, which had become a bit of an obsession. I could redirect the dog, but he just went back to pulling up carpet. I could reward him for alternative behaviours, but when I stopped, he was soon back at the carpet. I threw a pillow at him from behind the couch every time he approached the torn carpet one night. It took maybe 4 reps and he never touched the carpet again. A good punishment is one that takes less than 5 reps, doesn't hurt or frighten the dog, and can't be associated with you or other neutral stimuli. My dog carried a duck response for quite a while afterwards if someone raised a pillow over head height. Given how rarely that happened, it was a fair price to pay for a dog that maintained his freedom in the lounge room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) ...the success might also depend on the breed; I know what my dog would associate with a flying pillow ...fluffy, moving...must be fun ...and when it drops on the floor or hits her ...let's see whether I can make it move again .... :) Eta: and she is not the most confident dog... Edited June 21, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Man I love my "leave it" command. It's kind of become a catch all. "Leave it" means stop whatever you're doing and good things will come... Did not know it could be a bad thing?! Anyway, carry on... But the difference is that your "leave it" actually tells the dog what you want him/her to do. More akin to a recall. A traditional "leave it" says stop doing that. So what you've trained is awesome!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 ...the success might also depend on the breed; I know what my dog would associate with a flying pillow ...fluffy, moving...must be fun ...and when it drops on the floor or hits her ...let's see whether I can make it move again .... :) Eta: and she is not the most confident dog... Well... Gary Wilkes first started doing it with herding breeds in agility if I remember correctly. It's not the object that is important. It's the fact it's a startling stimulus and it comes at a time when the dog is focused wholly on something else. You don't wait for them to look at you and cry "Hup!" and toss them a pillow. If you've ever had someone toss a jumper or something at you while you're trying to do your homework, you might appreciate why it's punishing. You might have asked for the jumper 2 minutes ago, but that doesn't mean you want it rushing towards your face when you are busy with something else and have limited capacity to catch or avoid it. Man, I hate to post GW explaining this, but there you go: In the VAST MAJORITY OF CASES, I do not like this approach. I do not like suppressing behaviour, and I'd far rather work on building behaviours with positive reinforcement from the ground up. Even where behaviour may be dangerous to the dog or to others, I am still very reluctant to attempt to suppress it, because it's complicated and sometimes hard to predict the outcomes, and if the dog is behaving that way because they are already frightened or anxious, I find it very difficult to justify perpetuating that. GW seems to favour it a lot regardless of arousal and emotional state, to the point where it has made him very unpopular in some circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Further explanation from GW: http://clickandtreat.com/wordpress/?p=370 Don't be sucked in by his language, though. It is my belief he hugely over-uses this tool and there are many cases he uses it where I would just work on arousal and impulse control and emotional state and still have success. There are many roads to dog training Rome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 ...the success might also depend on the breed; I know what my dog would associate with a flying pillow ...fluffy, moving...must be fun ...and when it drops on the floor or hits her ...let's see whether I can make it move again .... :) Eta: and she is not the most confident dog... Well... Gary Wilkes first started doing it with herding breeds in agility if I remember correctly. It's not the object that is important. It's the fact it's a startling stimulus and it comes at a time when the dog is focused wholly on something else. You don't wait for them to look at you and cry "Hup!" and toss them a pillow. If you've ever had someone toss a jumper or something at you while you're trying to do your homework, you might appreciate why it's punishing. You might have asked for the jumper 2 minutes ago, but that doesn't mean you want it rushing towards your face when you are busy with something else and have limited capacity to catch or avoid it. Man, I hate to post GW explaining this, but there you go: In the VAST MAJORITY OF CASES, I do not like this approach. I do not like suppressing behaviour, and I'd far rather work on building behaviours with positive reinforcement from the ground up. Even where behaviour may be dangerous to the dog or to others, I am still very reluctant to attempt to suppress it, because it's complicated and sometimes hard to predict the outcomes, and if the dog is behaving that way because they are already frightened or anxious, I find it very difficult to justify perpetuating that. GW seems to favour it a lot regardless of arousal and emotional state, to the point where it has made him very unpopular in some circles. :D ...I have 2 younger daughters who try to prank and shock me all the time - I'm conditioned not to respond with the expected reaction to this kind of stimuli :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 wrt GW: I'm not against punishment, but he seems to be totally one-sided, e.g. : how easy would it be to make the scooter a positive experience just by positive reinforcement?...tell the dog, 'hey, it is just a scooter', get her focus back from the object, reward with a good treat and praise...2-3 times and you will achieve just the same. If you need really positive punishment for such a basic and simple scenario then you should rethink your whole training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) Further explanation from GW: http://clickandtreat.com/wordpress/?p=370 Don't be sucked in by his language, though. It is my belief he hugely over-uses this tool and there are many cases he uses it where I would just work on arousal and impulse control and emotional state and still have success. There are many roads to dog training Rome. he missed one important point in this article: the arousal state!...the comparison with wolves and bisons has the flaw that it describes only one scenario where the wolves might be (not always!) are able to minimize the risk of injuries. Consider a dog fight where dogs in a high aroused state bite each other - and then throw the bonker ...Huh!... :D IMO the employment of positive punishment requires a very good assessment of the arousal state of the dog - if you get this wrong there is a good chance that the positive punishment will fail as a trainings method. Eta: he mentioned the arousal state once in his article ...'This interrupts even the most aroused behavior if you have pre-conditioned the dog to the “NO” followed by the intolerable bonk'...but 2 dogs in the zone fighting each other can be both 'pre-conditioned' to 'NO' and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't listen to 'NO' nor would throwing the bonker do anything to stop the fight. Eta:...sorry...got a little bit off-topic... Edited June 22, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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