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Greyhound Racing To Be Shut Down

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Really? Which vets and venues in Victoria would those be?

Have you ever actually attended an event or are you plucking this stuff out of thin air?

Question reminds me of a Doler long departed - posts were full of weird punctuation, had Staffies, called them little boys in dog suits, ring any bells? Anyway I once posted in an old greyhound racing pro/anti thread that I'd seen a pile of carcases behind a shed on a greyhound training property out of Canberra, I was attending a neighbouring property view to purchase. Did not purchase as the dead dogs did indeed affect my decision. Said Doler whose name I forget was a racing fan, and accused me of lying. Not an accusation easily forgotten even years later.

So - no I am not going to name vets. There were a few. JulesP mentioned lure coursing at KCC Park. Yes, I lived near where JulesP does currently, so although the fun-days lure coursing was not in my immediate area, a lot of us took our dogs there and they adored it. Mentioned this to our local vets. Who gave us an earful. Might add same vets were not over-impressed with the number of flyball injuries they saw from time to time. Of course when there are people-sports or dog-sports there are sporting injuries: scale differs between sports.

Obviously in Victoria lure coursing is not as organised etc etc as in NSW. There is a little at Healesville, a little at KCC Park, and at days like Rosebud Pet Expo, club activity days etc. I'd even considered putting a long straight line lure on our current property - but the dogs were no longer young so did not go ahead. And if I do take on a couple of greys maybe just fence a boundary laneway and we can take an end each and do two-way speed recalls to keep everyone happy.

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Rebanne   

This is a video taken on 1st April 2016. At the 20 minute mark it is clearly stated greyhounds will be gone in 2 months. More said at the 38 minute mark. Wonder what would have happened to the Government if this had been made known before the election?

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Sheesh, surely other breeds of fast sighthounds exist happily without regular top-speed work. Normal daily walking and some off-lead when possible. "Somewhere to slip it up a couple of times a week" - I even hope some of the jargon will disappear along with the gambling and with the ill treatment of dogs.

Lure coursing isn't a top option: ask any vet within cooee of a lure coursing venue and they will tell you why they dislike it. Too many tight turns, falls, joint injuries. Not a fitness issue at all, just the nature of the turning. (Straight runs less damaging).

Really? Which vets and venues in Victoria would those be?

Have you ever actually attended an event or are you plucking this stuff out of thin air?

I thought lure coursing was done at KCC Park?

They chase a lure on a very small, under regulation course. Im pretty sure there are no tight turns. There hasn't been an ANKC LC trial in the State yet.

No, it's completely straight.

Then it isn't lure coursing.

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trifecta   

This is a video taken on 1st April 2016. At the 20 minute mark it is clearly stated greyhounds will be gone in 2 months. More said at the 38 minute mark. Wonder what would have happened to the Government if this had been made known before the election?

Yes I saw that too this afternoon, Rebanne.

The timing of the announcement has been critical.

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Rebanne   

This is a video taken on 1st April 2016. At the 20 minute mark it is clearly stated greyhounds will be gone in 2 months. More said at the 38 minute mark. Wonder what would have happened to the Government if this had been made known before the election?

Yes I saw that too this afternoon, Rebanne.

The timing of the announcement has been critical.

Yes. To me it's made a mockery of any concerns the government had about the welfare of the dogs, they were only worried about winning the election. If they had really cared about the welfare they would already have a plan in place.

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Lhok   

That video is interesting. Seems like from the Thoroughbred breeders point of view the government believes they are also responsible for all unregistered thoroughbred horses much like many believe that the state bodies like Dogs Vic etc are responsible for all "registered" dog breeders.

Also pretty shonky of the government to hold onto the fact that the dogs were going to go in 2 months (from that video) and nothing was said until after the election.

--Lhok

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That video is interesting. Seems like from the Thoroughbred breeders point of view the government believes they are also responsible for all unregistered thoroughbred horses much like many believe that the state bodies like Dogs Vic etc are responsible for all "registered" dog breeders.

Also pretty shonky of the government to hold onto the fact that the dogs were going to go in 2 months (from that video) and nothing was said until after the election.

--Lhok

Thoroughbred breeders are responsible for the vast majority of thoroughbreds born in this country, there are very few thoroughbreds bred outside the racing indsutry in Auatralia, almost all thoroughbreds born are bred for the racing indsutry by race breeders and are registered or verified in the thoroughbred stud book. Very different situation to the dogs as thoroughbreds cannot race if they are not verified in the studbook and a thoroughbred which cannot race or be registered has a very low $ value, even a purpose bred one. The TB breeders would like to paint the picture that they are not responsible for the oversupply of TBs in this country, hence why they fund "research" to show how many go on to wonderful homes in the pleasure industry.

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My family loved and raced greyhounds for years, many years ago, when you could have a couple of dogs and race them for fun/competition. You didn't really go into it for money, back then. Sad to see it so corrupted.

It was equally corrupted way back when Katdogs. As now there were for sure many good people involved. But outweighed by the bad stuff going on with far less publicity. But "the dogs in the street" talked about the rotten-ness in horse and dog racing. Frank Hardy wrote quite a bit on it, (he is also the author of Power Without Glory). His book "The Four Legged Lottery" was published in the late 50s, and another on horse racing "The Needy and the Greedy" in the 60s. How gambling wrecked families and how corruption was part of the industry. Probably less recognition of the animals as victims - harsher times in many ways. Rose coloured glasses not.

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juice   

So they have been trying to up their game and should be given more time? By doing what exactly? Building posher looking kennels?

Again i ask, how do you police live baiting, ingrained cruelty thats been going on donkeys years? Answer?

How do you improve on 70% of dogs culled?

Doping?

Come on, lets hear some answers, if they have been getting their act together.

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m-j   

So they have been trying to up their game and should be given more time? By doing what exactly? Building posher looking kennels?

Again i ask, how do you police live baiting, ingrained cruelty thats been going on donkeys years? Answer?

How do you improve on 70% of dogs culled?

Doping?

Come on, lets hear some answers, if they have been getting their act together.

In the report there were a lot of recommendations that obviously haven't been upheld fast enough. It would have been a difficult job as you have a handful of people trying to move a mountainful of resistant people steeped in tradition and a culture. This culture has come about because of money and egos, so the Mike Baird has said enough is enough you flaunted the law so you are going to pay I'm closing this industry down. His motivation for doing this I really don't know but as has been said I suspect it wasn't completely driven by the dogs welfare. The bits I have read of the report don't really give much detail on how the problem of thousands of dogs are going to be dealt with (you would think after 12mths they would know).

The driving force for these people racing dogs, live baiting, lack of concern for the outcome for the dogs is driven by money so this is why I said add $3000-$4000 per pup. Breeders are going to think very seriously about breeding their next litter of pups as it is hard enough to sell dogs at $2000+ let alone adding another $3000-$4000 which the breeder will have to absorb if the pups don't sell.

The pups/dogs that are not wanted are then put into a rescue organisation with $3000-$4000 to ensure that they have enough money backing them to enable them to be rehomed. The breeder/owner will have to do this rather than face the penalties for not doing so as they will be made accountable, plus the breeder will be out of pocket for all the expenses they have incurred to get the bitch in whelp anyway, which is not a cheap exercise. The reason why I said register them before they are 2 weeks old is that they aren't moving then so they can't test them for prey drive and very few breeders will want to take the risk of possibly euthing the next Brett Lee. Indiscriminate breeding is very rare amoungst Greys, again this is money orientated, the bitch is useless for several months or you have wasted an opportunity to breed to a dog you would really want to breed with, most greys generally only cycle every 12 mths, so they make sure it doesn't happen (pity pet owners don't take the same precautions). When the pups are sold the same accountability goes onto the new owner

The report said that there are a certain amount of Greys needing to be bred each year to make the industry viable, if that quota isn't reached things will go pear shaped, so the industry will die, but the dogs that are racing now will still be able to do so and the influx of dogs into the rescue system will be a slower trickle than the avalanche it is going to be now.

If the industry in NSW is closed down it will be a wake up call to the other states to get their act together and play the game by the law or the same thing will happen to them. When the Four Corners report came out the few people I talked to about it believed it was a storm in a teacup, I did try to say that no it isn't there are a lot of people peeved about this, but it fell on deaf ears. Just as I tried to tell them that to get a mad keen chaser you don't need to use live baiting despite the fact I had walked the talk for 10 yrs with roughly 600-700 greys, got dogs chasing that had stopped chasing ect, was employed by a guy who was as tight as a fish's backside with money, had old school mentality until he saw the results of the toy training, he would not have wasted money employing me to train these dogs if it hadn't worked.

As far preventing live baiting the only things that I can think of are... like my boss people need to be educated and attitudes changed and random checks on properties ( to cut down costs I had though that perhaps drones could be used, but then you are probably starting to violate human rights).

Doping.. more swabs done at races.

All these things cost money to do again this along with a decrease of Greys to race will help with a slow cull of the industry, which is probably another reason why the GRNSW has been reluctant to implement the changes as fast as some would like.

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Steve   

So even though its been announced as a done deal it still has to get through parliament - bet there are a lot of MP'S who are being challenged by their constituents especially in rural areas

Reminds me of Clover Moore's bill - she was pretty confident too about it getting through

Its nowhere near a done deal yet

I reckon that after watching this that everyone who has a breed that has a brachy head should consider the same could happen to the legality of breeding them because almost the same arguments can be used if they want to and its definitely on the agenda.

I normally agree with you but I don't in this case re brachy or any other BSL issue being linked to this decision.

The ban here is for greyhound racing, not breeding. The racing of dogs and breeding of dogs are different issues.

As for it being on 'the' agenda? Whose agenda is that exactly?

I do agree that the Bill may not get through, however. I'd says it's got good odds for passing but who knows.

There is a current campaign which is growing momentum aimed at shutting down the breeding of brachy head dogs .I know this because of various correspondence , meetings Ive had with those involved and submissions we have provided plus various recent media etc.

The aim/strategy is firstly to educate the public attempting to sensitising them to the health conditions associated with brachy heads. They are aware that simply banning the breeding of them as they have done with scottish fold cats would be difficult now due to the lack of public knowledge and the high ownership of them. According to statements Ive heard from Baird the BREEDING of greyhounds will be banned as part of their banning of racing. Its the over breeding of them that is at issue because it causes so many to be discarded.

Clearly there is a difference between racing them and owning them but they could say the KCs have had years to get their act together and ensure dogs were not suffering due to their conformation if they want to get to that and I believe they will in years to come.

Previous conversations on this is here My link and here My link and here with Vicdogs response here My link

Happy to send you the discussion papers and responses if you are interested.

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~Anne~   

I'm not sure how the links you've provided show that there is an 'agenda' and I'm still unsure of whose agenda.

You and I have had many frank discussions about brachys and I've debated the topic more times than I want to think about on this very forum. All I can say is what I've just read shows that people are actually starting to take action, which might save breeds like the pug.

I'm still not sure how anything you have shown me is linked to the ban on greyhound racing, announced by the Premier of NSW. :confused:

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Katdogs   

My family loved and raced greyhounds for years, many years ago, when you could have a couple of dogs and race them for fun/competition. You didn't really go into it for money, back then. Sad to see it so corrupted.

It was equally corrupted way back when Katdogs. As now there were for sure many good people involved. But outweighed by the bad stuff going on with far less publicity. But "the dogs in the street" talked about the rotten-ness in horse and dog racing. Frank Hardy wrote quite a bit on it, (he is also the author of Power Without Glory). His book "The Four Legged Lottery" was published in the late 50s, and another on horse racing "The Needy and the Greedy" in the 60s. How gambling wrecked families and how corruption was part of the industry. Probably less recognition of the animals as victims - harsher times in many ways. Rose coloured glasses not.

You're right PC, I suspect I've been looking through the rose coloured glasses. The rabbits being trapped and ferreted for food and fur probably also got used for the hounds. I'm also sure that when any gambling is involved, corruption happens. I'm thinking though that there were more 'just one or two' dog owners who also did training and very selective breeding, rather than the wholesale breeding/kenneling?

Interesting to see now the calls for Wentworth Park to become a new style super-pound to replace SDCH etc. I can't see that ever happening in that place, but it's getting mainstream news attention.

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Steve   

I'm not sure how the links you've provided show that there is an 'agenda' and I'm still unsure of whose agenda.

You and I have had many frank discussions about brachys and I've debated the topic more times than I want to think about on this very forum. All I can say is what I've just read shows that people are actually starting to take action, which might save breeds like the pug.

I'm still not sure how anything you have shown me is linked to the ban on greyhound racing, announced by the Premier of NSW. :confused:

Doesn't matter really whether we agree on whether there is a link. Im not prepared to take it much further here or knock myself out debating why I think this - like you Ive done it to death and this forum isnt what it used to be.

The welfare of the dogs has been the major focus on the argument for justifying why this has happened with greyhounds and I believe that if it is possible to wipe an entire industry out in this manner - based on welfare of the animals,them being warned and given time to take action and being perceived to have made no improvement - even though it has money and huge support behind it - that purebred breeders better start to consider harder their risk factors.

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~Anne~   

Ahh, OK. I understand the parallel you're drawing now and I agree 100% - particularly your last statement about the need for breeders to more seriosuly consider their risk factors.

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I think all animal industries should be treating this as a wake up call. Whether it's an AR agenda is irrelevant, AR just provides the proof of what is happening behind closed doors, it is the community which decides whether the price animals pay is too high. We all need to be pro active about addressing the very valid concerns that people have. It is falling on deaf ears in the horse racing industry, they think that they are untouchable. But it is the people who will decide and if we do not start showing them that we are united in adopting a zero tolerance attitude towards cruelty then we are running on borrowed time, all of us.

There is no use saying it's only a few bad eggs, it is not up to anyone on the outside to fix that, and to allow it to continue implies that the industry believes it is acceptable and tolerates it. It's no longer about what the industry believes is acceptable, it is about what the community believes is acceptable and tolerable. We have the power to change that by lobbying the registries and governing bodies of our sports and breeds, get enforcement happening, reward those who do the right thing, turf those who do the wrong thing out. You don't want the bad representing you, get rid of them.

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I think all animal industries should be treating this as a wake up call. Whether it's an AR agenda is irrelevant, AR just provides the proof of what is happening behind closed doors, it is the community which decides whether the price animals pay is too high. We all need to be pro active about addressing the very valid concerns that people have. It is falling on deaf ears in the horse racing industry, they think that they are untouchable. But it is the people who will decide and if we do not start showing them that we are united in adopting a zero tolerance attitude towards cruelty then we are running on borrowed time, all of us.

There is no use saying it's only a few bad eggs, it is not up to anyone on the outside to fix that, and to allow it to continue implies that the industry believes it is acceptable and tolerates it. It's no longer about what the industry believes is acceptable, it is about what the community believes is acceptable and tolerable. We have the power to change that by lobbying the registries and governing bodies of our sports and breeds, get enforcement happening, reward those who do the right thing, turf those who do the wrong thing out. You don't want the bad representing you, get rid of them.

Currently most of the enforcement powers lie with the RSPCA. They hardly have a shining track record of acting to get the prosecutions that make it easier to turf people out.

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Animal rights and the RSPCA are all about obtaining footage and information to further their own agenda, as opposed to actually helping an animal.

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I think all animal industries should be treating this as a wake up call. Whether it's an AR agenda is irrelevant, AR just provides the proof of what is happening behind closed doors, it is the community which decides whether the price animals pay is too high. We all need to be pro active about addressing the very valid concerns that people have. It is falling on deaf ears in the horse racing industry, they think that they are untouchable. But it is the people who will decide and if we do not start showing them that we are united in adopting a zero tolerance attitude towards cruelty then we are running on borrowed time, all of us.

There is no use saying it's only a few bad eggs, it is not up to anyone on the outside to fix that, and to allow it to continue implies that the industry believes it is acceptable and tolerates it. It's no longer about what the industry believes is acceptable, it is about what the community believes is acceptable and tolerable. We have the power to change that by lobbying the registries and governing bodies of our sports and breeds, get enforcement happening, reward those who do the right thing, turf those who do the wrong thing out. You don't want the bad representing you, get rid of them.

Currently most of the enforcement powers lie with the RSPCA. They hardly have a shining track record of acting to get the prosecutions that make it easier to turf people out.

If we look at most animal industries we have governing bodies, registries accept registrations from people everyone knows is dodgy but they are still allowed to be in the association. Competition entires are accepted by bodies even though everyone knows they treat animals badly. It is those organisations through which we can enforce standards of ethical behaviour. In the example of greyhounds it was simple, they have one registry and one competition body, they had the power to be rid of anyone who didn't tow the line.

The ANKC has the power to get rid of unethical breeders inside its own ranks and promote those standards as the only ethical option for puppy buyers. Sure it's hard to act against the bybers but it doesn't mean that because it's hard we give up and let the community put all dog breeders into the same basket. The only reason AR has a voice is because they get out there and shout as hard as they can, everyone else just meekly accepts it or whinges about it behind closed doors. How many have written to their governing bodies? I don't mean deflecting crap like "what about xyz which is much worse" I mean get your organsing bodies to outline a code of practice for welfare, an ethical standard for breeding, selling and competition. And enforce them.

If a registered breeder is found to be selling unhealthy cross bred pups what currently happens? Do they get kicked out? Or is it tolerated because they are high up in the club and everyone knows everyone and no one wants to step on their toes? I know it happens in horse breeds there is a welsh breeder highly respected judge who dogs his colts every year, everyone knows he does it but he gets kudos for being a great judge and no one is going to kick his ass to the curb even though he is contributing to a serious wastage issue not just for his breed but for the whole industry. Whatever we can be doing we should be doing to demonstrate a zero tolerance.

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~Anne~   
One of the first signs that something was really amiss was the shock resignation of Greyhound Racing NSW's (GRNSW) integrity auditor in July 2012.

David Landa, a former chief magistrate and NSW Ombudsman, quit his position issuing an ominous warning: that legislative failings made independent oversight of the code impossible.

My exclusive interview with Mr Landa revealed that the industry been left without proper checks and balances and he warned "nowhere in the world would such an industry be allowed to self-regulate in this way".

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/greyhound-racing-ban-how-a-single-call-triggered-the-sunherald-investigation-20160709-gq22k4.html#ixzz4Dz2MDukV

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