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The Public Face Of Purebred Dogs


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Some horse studs have "mare stare" web streaming of foalings, a good way to include the public in the process without having them tramping through the place. :)

Just scrolled back up and saw this - that is a really cool idea!!!

Can't see the relevance to dog breeding myself.............smacks of voyeurism anyway, can't acgirl have some peace and dignity......what would it prove?

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Jed sadly so many vets see the worst of dog owners. Those owners who research know that raw food is better than dry food but vets figure it's still better than chum for a dog owner who isn't going to prepare a balanced raw diet anyway. They figure it's better to get the dog desexed early than have oops litters because they know a lot of owners won't contain their dog effectively. They figure it's best to get vaccinations done because if they tell some owners it's fine they won't bring the dog back even if it's sick so they figure it's better to do the dog every year so at least they see a problem developing.

It's sad accounting for the lowest common denominator but it doesn't mean we can't work to change the narrative. It is a difficult environment at the moment but we can just work to keep educating and train puppy buyers :)

Some horse studs have "mare stare" web streaming of foalings, a good way to include the public in the process without having them tramping through the place. :)

Just scrolled back up and saw this - that is a really cool idea!!!

Can't see the relevance to dog breeding myself.............smacks of voyeurism anyway, can't acgirl have some peace and dignity......what would it prove?

Peace? A webcam isn't intrusive. Dignity? I would be surprised if the dog cares that people are watching it on the internet but you can ask her :)

What would it prove? That good breeders are open and honest about breeding, that the dog is well cared for and not giving birth in a concrete cage, that people can see how much work goes into breeding. And finally and most importantly IMO, that the public can feel connected to breeders and the dogs, see that they aren't just some distant cloistered group trotting around the show ring with their noses in the air.

We have seen from other threads here now and in the past that often times communication between the public and registered breeders can be difficult to establish, Fostering and improving the relationship between breeders and the general public IMO is a good start to addressing that disconnect.

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Jed sadly so many vets see the worst of dog owners. Those owners who research know that raw food is better than dry food but vets figure it's still better than chum for a dog owner who isn't going to prepare a balanced raw diet anyway.

Sorry but that is quite frankly, a huge generalisation.

I can show you a study that says for Greyhounds in racing condition, it is virtually impossible to feed sufficient bulk of raw food to meet their protein requirements. It recommends hight quality, high protein kibble AND raw.

And guess what I feed my Whippets.

After changing from a fully raw diet to a mixed one, my Toy Poodle's anal gland issues disappeared.

I have researched the issue and tried a few diets. I feed what works for my dogs.

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Jed sadly so many vets see the worst of dog owners. Those owners who research know that raw food is better than dry food but vets figure it's still better than chum for a dog owner who isn't going to prepare a balanced raw diet anyway.

Sorry but that is quite frankly, a huge generalisation.

I can show you a study that says for Greyhounds in racing condition, it is virtually impossible to feed sufficient bulk of raw food to meet their protein requirements. It recommends hight quality, high protein kibble AND raw.

And guess what I feed my Whippets.

After changing from a fully raw diet to a mixed one, my Toy Poodle's anal gland issues disappeared.

I have researched the issue and tried a few diets. I feed what works for my dogs.

Yes it's a generalisation, that's kind of the point :) I am on the fence with food, mine get a variation of all types and whatever works for them, but I was responding to Jed's point that vets direct puppy owners to a general formula which is not necessarily the ideal but is a basic guide for the middle of the road, it may not be best practice but it's better than what a lot of vets see quite often since they are often at the coal face of all dog owners, whereas registered breeders can pick and choose the kind of owner they deal with.

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Yes it's a generalisation, that's kind of the point :) I am on the fence with food, mine get a variation of all types and whatever works for them, but I was responding to Jed's point that vets direct puppy owners to a general formula which is not necessarily the ideal but is a basic guide for the middle of the road, it may not be best practice but it's better than what a lot of vets see quite often since they are often at the coal face of all dog owners, whereas registered breeders can pick and choose the kind of owner they deal with.

Not when you rescue... You get to deal with the kind of people who should never have been sold the dog.

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Yes it's a generalisation, that's kind of the point :) I am on the fence with food, mine get a variation of all types and whatever works for them, but I was responding to Jed's point that vets direct puppy owners to a general formula which is not necessarily the ideal but is a basic guide for the middle of the road, it may not be best practice but it's better than what a lot of vets see quite often since they are often at the coal face of all dog owners, whereas registered breeders can pick and choose the kind of owner they deal with.

Not when you rescue... You get to deal with the kind of people who should never have been sold the dog.

True, rescue is also the bottom end, it's why rescuers and vets have high burnout rates, not sure about rescue but vets also have one of the highest suicide rates of any profession. :(

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Haredown Whippets

I can show you a study that says for Greyhounds in racing condition, it is virtually impossible to feed sufficient bulk of raw food to meet their protein requirements. It recommends hight quality, high protein kibble AND raw.

Curious as to what greyhound owners fed pre-kibble? I know bread and milk was popular; and baked rusk thingies - but what else?

Vets recommend dry food because it is too difficult and time consuming to explain feeding to clients - much easier and more effective to say "look, this will work, here's a bag".

I get that.

However, when the 15 month old dog has continuing ear problems and recurring serious mouth ulcers - and the vet fails to either find the cause or cure the problem, I do wish they had stuck to the recommended diet, or not come to me with the problem.

Edited by Jed
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Haredown Whippets

I can show you a study that says for Greyhounds in racing condition, it is virtually impossible to feed sufficient bulk of raw food to meet their protein requirements. It recommends hight quality, high protein kibble AND raw.

Curious as to what greyhound owners fed pre-kibble? I know bread and milk was popular; and baked rusk thingies - but what else?

Vets recommend dry food because it is too difficult and time consuming to explain feeding to clients - much easier and more effective to say "look, this will work, here's a bag".

I get that.

However, when the 15 month old dog has continuing ear problems and recurring serious mouth ulcers - and the vet fails to either find the cause or cure the problem, I do wish they had stuck to the recommended diet, or not come to me with the problem.

And dare I say it, there are monetary incentives connected to volume of sales. And who sponsors veterinary research, funds veterinary schools etc etc. money talks

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I mentioned this in the greyhound thread in news but I think it is useful here. Currently the narrative that much of the public sees is from AR groups, the RSPCA and others who basically have the greatest public presence and the loudest voices. In contrast the purebred dog world appears cloistered and disconnected from the public and the "real world" in a sense. It's time to change the narrative. Become the voice that people hear when it comes to dogs and companion animals in general. AR dominates because they are there, in public, as much as possible. But they are not the only ones who can do this, we can do it too, and become a voice for our breed, our sport, and our pets.

Except breeders have been well trained to keep their campfires low and stay off the track - say too much get too obvious about who you are and what you do and you are likely to be wallopped. Those who have more than one or two dogs who have a genuine interest in seeing it stay as it is are the least likely to make waves and shout about it . We are divided -where are the dog related groups who have stood up for the greyhound people where are the dog related groups who join with us to fight crap legislation - where are we if they need us.

How many dog related people and groups are going to go in and shout and donate money to help the people who compete in lure work?

They are in the same place as they were when the docking ban was being fought or the BSL fight or so many other issues. The "dog world" is so fragmented and wrapped up in individual opinions that they will never support each other and soon it will be too late.

Yep.

Before we became potentially useful as a means to discredit the Special Commission's Report, the NGRU was throwing amateur dog sport under a bus in an attempt to prove that greyhound racing had fewer injuries than amateur dog sport. And when called on the fact they were using American agility stats, and not Australian stats, they just deleted posts from amateur dog sport people. The problem is that drowning people thrash about a lot, and they are happy to take others down with them. We know in LC that we are ultimately on our own. Which is a pity - what I would like to see more than anything else is a broad coalition like the UK's Countryside Alliance. One focussed on welfare but with a broad support base that the Government will take seriously, and a credible narrative that directly takes on the anthropomorphism and just plain bullshit of the AR movement.

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On the PR side, I think the simplest start would be for breeders to actually respond to people who make enquiries. There's a number of threads on here recently with people getting no response from breeders when they have made an enquiry. People enquiring about a dog are likely going to purchase a dog. If breeders don't want their business, then they will go to other sources - puppy farmers, pet shops etc.

I think one of the strongest arguments for buying from breeders is you are pretty much guaranteed a consistent product. If you buy a purebred dog then it will look a certain way, it will have a certain coat and it will have particular character traits eg gun dog, terrier etc. These things enable purchasers to make a much better selection of the right dog for their situation than the pot luck that is mixed breeding or pound rescue. Add to that breeders are passionate about their dogs and you are buying from someone who wants the best outcome for their animals rather than some who is only after the money.

I read a recent article about Crufts (? the big dog show) with the author commenting all the dogs looked the same, why would you want that when you could have an individual looking mongrel (my paraphrasing there!). My first thought was that is exactly why you buy a purebred as you are pretty certain that they are going to be as described. People don't seem to realise they don't need to be presented like show dogs and the only grooming option is not all over clipping. My two are my first long haired dogs and I'm keeping them in what I think of as a sporting version of a show coat. Not super long hair, but long enough that you can see what they are and they can hoon at park and come home relatively debris free.

The cocker breeder I met to learn how to groom cockers is someone other breeders should emulate. I randomly contacted her from DOL breeder pages. She replied very promptly and was more than happy to show a total stranger how to look after and groom a cocker. I recently sent her before and after photos, again thanking her profusely for her time, and she was quite pleased with the results.

PS webcam would have been ideal for someone like me who was super excited about their new puppy but couldn't see it for 6 weeks. I would have been showing every one live feed of the puppies LOL

Edited by karen15
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Well its pretty hard to have it both ways. Most purebred breeders have other lives .They have families, they work ,go to the toilet, watch TV attend dog shows ,go to the vet, train, clean etc. They breed dogs as a hobby - that's what you all want isn't it?

You dont want them to have more than average number of dogs or breed more than a litter or two a year you certainly don't want them to make money out of what they do but you still expect that they behave like a business and put everything other than puppy enquiries and their PR as priority.

The real world sadly doesn't have enough purebred puppies bred by registered purebred breeders an no mount of promotion of purebred dogs or breeders being more accessible or more available will fill the demand for puppies that sees people go to other places to buy puppies.

Purebred breeders aren't sitting around with litters of puppies they cant sell.

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Another thing that might help educate people could be an advertising campaign showing alternatives to oodle crosses, Maltese crosses etc. The dog spotting thread has a number of purebreds that look to have similar type coats and appearance. Something that shows the consistent outcome for purebreds vs the lottery of cross breeding (ie a number of different looking dogs of the same cross). It would be great to show the dogs with different trims so people can realise eg that all poodles don't have a pom pom look.

The majority of people have no idea what alternative breeds may be available. So education could help with that. It won't stop the pet shop / online / newspaper ad buy because the dog is available now people, but more discerning purchasers might stop to think.

As I said earlier, to me the selling points of purebreds are consistent appearance, and a known breed temperament and traits.

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Re - food

There is scientific proof from Purdue that Cavaliers fed raw food have fewer and later onset heart issues than those fed prepared food.

There is evidence that early desexing causes many problems in all breeds.

There is proof over-vaccinating causes many problems in all breeds.

Yet the first thing the puppy buyer does is take the dog to the vet, where they are told to feed only a dry food, desex under 6 months, and vaccinate at 12 and 16 weeks with C7.

In many council areas, mandatory desexing laws apply as soon as the pup changes hands -- ie, 8 to 12 weeks.

Breeders are lost before they begin.

There is "proof" of a lot of things that aren't strictly true (if you were in the US and had to listen to the Republican Convention garbage, you'd find lots to support that assertion).

In most of the assertions above, I'd expect the devil is in the details . . . where double blind studies were done with adequate sample sizes and no obvious sampling bias, my guess is results are not strong...unless some treatment is obviously excessive (eg., vaccinating much more frequently than once a year).

I think the stats are pretty clear that Cavaliers are genetically inclined to heart problems.

I don't support mandatory desexing or over-vacciating. But no point to denying and working to correct genetic problems. Some breeders are doing this . . . it's good if they make it clear, and provide information along with the KC pedigree that show the soundness of their lines through testing, test results, and longevity records.

One thing you can say about purebreds . . . they have a pedigree that can be followed. BYB, petshop, and designer dogs seldom do. Use that pedigree to breed for health . . . and to demonstrate you are doing so.

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Curious as to what greyhound owners fed pre-kibble? I know bread and milk was popular; and baked rusk thingies - but what else?

....

Only an example of one but I grew up beside a small greyhound trainer. He would often have an entire dead cow or horse delivered which was butchered and fed to his dogs.

I'll never forget it because as a child it used to horrify me!

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Curious as to what greyhound owners fed pre-kibble? I know bread and milk was popular; and baked rusk thingies - but what else?

I'm talking 70 years ago! Yes, bread and milk, broken biscuits from Arnotts, etc by the chaff bagful - sweet and dry - sheeps heads cooked in the old copper in the shed.........and there WAS early kibble, oven dried bread or similar mix, guess that has been around for years. I read that it was the Vietnam war which caused the development of premium dry food, the dogs could not fit in enough other diet to sustain their work in the humid climate so super-enriched dry was developed, most of our dogs don't do enough to need this over enrichment, mine do well on middle of the road dry with a bit of raw thrown in

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Curious as to what greyhound owners fed pre-kibble? I know bread and milk was popular; and baked rusk thingies - but what else?

I'm talking 70 years ago! Yes, bread and milk, broken biscuits from Arnotts, etc by the chaff bagful - sweet and dry - sheeps heads cooked in the old copper in the shed.........and there WAS early kibble, oven dried bread or similar mix, guess that has been around for years. I read that it was the Vietnam war which caused the development of premium dry food, the dogs could not fit in enough other diet to sustain their work in the humid climate so super-enriched dry was developed, most of our dogs don't do enough to need this over enrichment, mine do well on middle of the road dry with a bit of raw thrown in

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Re - food

There is scientific proof from Purdue that Cavaliers fed raw food have fewer and later onset heart issues than those fed prepared food.

There is evidence that early desexing causes many problems in all breeds.

There is proof over-vaccinating causes many problems in all breeds.

Yet the first thing the puppy buyer does is take the dog to the vet, where they are told to feed only a dry food, desex under 6 months, and vaccinate at 12 and 16 weeks with C7.

In many council areas, mandatory desexing laws apply as soon as the pup changes hands -- ie, 8 to 12 weeks.

Breeders are lost before they begin.

There is "proof" of a lot of things that aren't strictly true (if you were in the US and had to listen to the Republican Convention garbage, you'd find lots to support that assertion).

In most of the assertions above, I'd expect the devil is in the details . . . where double blind studies were done with adequate sample sizes and no obvious sampling bias, my guess is results are not strong...unless some treatment is obviously excessive (eg., vaccinating much more frequently than once a year).

I think the stats are pretty clear that Cavaliers are genetically inclined to heart problems.

I don't support mandatory desexing or over-vacciating. But no point to denying and working to correct genetic problems. Some breeders are doing this . . . it's good if they make it clear, and provide information along with the KC pedigree that show the soundness of their lines through testing, test results, and longevity records.

One thing you can say about purebreds . . . they have a pedigree that can be followed. BYB, petshop, and designer dogs seldom do. Use that pedigree to breed for health . . . and to demonstrate you are doing so.

Sorry, not sure where you have been recently, but all the things mentioned are true. Check out J, Dodds, C. McDriscoll, and B. Rogers for more information. Studies from the Irish Veterinary College, but mostly Purdue have proven that raw is beneficial to Cavalier hearts. I am not repeating what I said previously - the point of this post was to illustrate that many GP vets are not up with latest trends, so are advising things which cause problems. If you disbelieve what I said, go and do your own research. I also think you have misread my post.

And no one is arguing that there is a hereditary component in MVD in Cavaliers. If some researcher could only find what it is, our problems would be less. However, ongoing research gives us some ameliorating influences, it is up to us to use them.

Edited by Jed
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