Bushriver Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) I was speaking to a breeder today about one of his upcoming litters. As far as I know he is a well respected breeder with dogs with impressive pedigrees. When I came to ask about he temperament of the parents, his comment was that it didn't matter at all as a pup will only grow up depending on how it is raised in its human home. While I agree that the raising and training of the pup is very important, I also feel temperament and trainability are at least somewhat inherited?? Thoughts?? Edited November 23, 2016 by Bushriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 Yes, I believe temperament is very much influenced by genetics! And I would be very wary of a breeder who doesn't want to discuss the temp of the parents. Really early socialisation (from birth) is also really important so anyone who doesn't take both into account rings warning bells for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushriver Posted November 23, 2016 Author Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) I don't think he was trying to hide anything but I got the impression he just didn't think it was important. He was so confident in his lines that it was a non issue perhaps? Temperament however is every bit as important to me as looks. Edited November 23, 2016 by Bushriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuralPug Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 Ask to met the parents, and see for yourself their temperament with people. If the breeder shows or competes in dog sports with the parents, then then temperament should be stable around other dogs. There are three equal aspects to temperament, in my view, which are: (1) Genetics (2) Lessons learned from the dam in the nest and (3) Raising of the puppy to about 18 months old, which includes early socialisation by the breeder and socialisation and consistent treatment by the puppy buyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 I totally get what the person is saying ,as a breeder you can sell a well socialised happy puppy but what the owner does with will mould it into the final package . Yes some temps can be genetic and always important to factor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 I totally get what the person is saying ,as a breeder you can sell a well socialised happy puppy but what the owner does with will mould it into the final package . Yes some temps can be genetic and always important to factor But this breeder is apparently saying genetics don't matter at all. Yes what the owner does moulds the final package and has a big influence, but genetics will determine the baseline a dog starts at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 The breeder of my next puppy told me she kept a female that was litter mate to a lovely boy I met. For some reason this dog was not confident with strange dogs and could be aggressive to them. So she said she will never breed from this girl. A very responsible breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 Oh gosh! temperament is much to do with genetics IMO How odd that breeder doesn't think so . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) I reckon its 99.9% genetics. Temperament is the traits its born with and behaviour is what you can train in or steer in the right direction. Ive put a lot of effort into being able to produce litters of puppies that have the same temperament over 40 years. Its very rare that I can see any difference between one pup and another in any litter because I've selected for those traits. Puppy buyers will ask me for the most adventurous, the shyest ,the softest etc but there really is no difference in my litters of Maremma. When they go home to whatever work they have to do they will be molded by the species they work with and the training they get so there are differences in behaviour but their temperament is extremely predictable. If we dont believe that its genetics then why do we bother with purebred, choosing the breed etc and why do we look for experienced breeders who have developed their own lines of predictably temperamented puppies? Fact is if you breed with a dog with a bad temperament you get rotten puppies and rotten grandpuppies - no argument .Train em all you want but put em under pressure and its a problem. Edited November 23, 2016 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) I reckon its 99.9% genetics. Temperament is the traits its born with and behaviour is what you can train in or steer in the right direction. Ive put a lot of effort into being able to produce litters of puppies that have the same temperament over 40 years. Its very rare that I can see any difference between one pup and another in any litter because I've selected for those traits. Puppy buyers will ask me for the most adventurous, the shyest ,the softest etc but there really is no difference in my litters of Maremma. When they go home to whatever work they have to do they will be molded by the species they work with and the training they get so there are differences in behaviour but their temperament is extremely predictable. If we dont believe that its genetics then why do we bother with purebred, choosing the breed etc and why do we look for experienced breeders who have developed their own lines of predictably temperamented puppies? Fact is if you breed with a dog with a bad temperament you get rotten puppies and rotten grandpuppies - no argument .Train em all you want but put em under pressure and its a problem. Yep. I think that dogs ( and people) are born with their ABILITIES of response. But environment and how those abilities are nurtured, the motivations provided or perceived will play a big part in how those abilities develop. Weather they are enhanced or suppressed. Conditions contrary to abilities of response will bring conflict. Edited November 23, 2016 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 I wouldn't buy a pup from a breeder that didn't do a lot of work with the litter between 0-8 weeks. Genetics are the foundation you build on with training. I wouldn't underestimate the importance of early imprinting. We see a huge difference between pups that have had next to nothing done with the breeder to develop/imprint them, vs breeders who do development and imprinting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 Oh gosh! temperament is much to do with genetics IMO How odd that breeder doesn't think so . This. Pups from nervy mothers might be socialised and taught to cope with life but if you push them at all, that nervy dog is just under the surface. Idiot Dog came from a very nervy dam and although he went to puppy classes, got taken on pleasant outings, was raised around some dogs with great social skills and given all the best opportunities, he was still a nervy dog. If he had come from dogs with great temperaments, and was raised in the same way, he would have been a wonderful, social dog. Instead, it took us most of his life and a lot of work for him to not be worried about unfamiliar visitors. I don't regret taking him on because I'd already committed myself to a lot of work because of his health issues anyway, but for the average puppy buyer, I can't imagine they'd want that sort of struggle. I actually had his half sister for a week recently and if he was bad, she was twenty times worse. The sort of dog who is anxious about everything and very wound-up, and (surprise, surprise) very quick to bite. Lots of anxious energy and to someone not familiar with greyhound temperaments, she probably seemed very friendly and outgoing, if a little silly. The reason she only stayed a week was because her nervy disposition extended into every facet of her life and in her anxiety to eat every little thing within a 20m radius of herself, she was incredibly food aggressive, attacking Spotty for his food as soon as she'd finished her own, unless he was crated for his own protection. Some problems can be fixed with training or socialisation but others are part of the dog and can only ever be managed. Personally, if a breeder told me that temperament of parents didn't matter, I'd be finding a different breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 [quote name='Simply Grand' timestamp='1479906570' post='6858815' But this breeder is apparently saying genetics don't matter at all. Yes what the owner does moulds the final package and has a big influence, but genetics will determine the baseline a dog starts at. Im presuming certain parts of the convo have been left out & the OP has highlighted this part & i still believe it is a very important part that a breeder can do everything in the power to send out a well adjusted pup but the owner can make or break it & i do believe that is what the breeder is saying . Without hearing the full chat im not going to bash a breeder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 Genetics provide us with the initial buildng blocks... environment builds upon those to round out the unique individual. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushriver Posted November 24, 2016 Author Share Posted November 24, 2016 (edited) Just to clear things up, I don't think he meant that genetics weren't important at all. At one point he did state that the parents could be nut cases and your pup would still turn out alright if raised properly. Then did go on to describe the parents temperaments a little and they sounded lovely. I don't wish to bash this breeder either, I was just looking for opinions on the genetics behind temperament. I'm sure if I was to question further I would get more information from him as he was happy to chat. Edited November 24, 2016 by Bushriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 Just to clear things up, I don't think he meant that genetics weren't important at all. At one point he did state that the parents could be nut cases and your pup would still turn out alright if raised properly. Then did go on to describe the parents temperaments a little and they sounded lovely. I don't wish to bash this breeder either, I was just looking for opinions on the genetics behind temperament. I'm sure if I was to question further I would get more information from him as he was happy to chat. Saying that genes aren't important as long as the pup is raised a certain way is.. saying genes aren't important? As I pointed out above, you can do all the right things, put in all the work and certain traits will still always be there. It sounds to me like quite a good "out" if the puppy grows up to have issues- "Oh, well, the parents have those same issues but you could have prevented them in the puppy by doing this thing, so the dodgy temperament is your own fault" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddogdodge Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 I believe genetics play a huge part in a dogs temperament. My Aussie Shepherd is a good example of this, despite doing all the right things and having no bad experiences as a youngster, it is in his nature to be reactive to other dogs. This is why when I got my next pup, temperament was the most important thing. I spoke to a breeder last year who was offering me a pup, I expressed concerns about putting a large deposit on a newborn pup who's temperament I don't know at all... I was told that pups are born a clean slate and genetics don't matter as long as I raise the pup right... Absolute rubbish!! After they said that I quickly wrapped up the phone call and moved on to find a better breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 Although attrition rates were still high , when I worked with the breeding side of Guide Dogs .. temperament was a BIG part of selecting breeding stock . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 Both. It's quite clear from studies that it's a combination of genetics and environment including maternal stress during gestation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog_fan Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 If it has nothing to do with genetics then why have pure bred breeds? Pure bred dogs are a package not just looks. If people want a particular temperament they can research pure bred dogs and have a good idea of the temperament they will get. It is also possible to change this temperament for good or bad by how the puppy is raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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