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Petition: Stop the selling of animals @ Parklea Markets

24 posts in this topic

asal   

anyone seen the video? puppies, rabbits, guinea pigs,  chooks and chickens panting in distress.  My guess most of the rabbits would have died they really cope badly without frozen bottles to lie on or airconditioning. I lost two of my chooks this week and they had shade, cool water and breeze. those poor things might have shade but the water heats up just from the ambient temp and those tarps prevented the fans from reaching any but the pups

 

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/home/pets/13000-sign-petition-to-ban-parklea-markets-selling-pets-after-picture-of-heatdistressed-puppies-emerges/news-story/c0f87355a3a25dd6dd97f174c24c9e39

Edited by asal

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Aside from banning animals at markets I hope the RSPCA were immediately called to remove all those animals and treat them for heat stress.

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asal   

probably wont earn me any brownie points, but I do not think a total ban is necessary, only for what is in actuality a very few  days  on the scale of the entire year the weather is nothing like that is no reason for a total ban year round. Although it seems we are now in the century  of overkill gone over the top, the catch cry being just because it was done in the past is no reason to be allowed now.

 

naysay to that and your left like those who were too scared to admit the emperor had no clothes

 

The animal rights groups have spun the same tale and so many are too scared to speak up .  for good reason .

 

" about two weavers who promise an emperor a new suit of clothes that they say is invisible to those who are unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent. When the Emperor parades before his subjects in his new clothes, no one dares to say that they don't see any suit of clothes on him for fear that they will be seen as "unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent". Finally, a child cries out, "But he isn't wearing anything at all!"   "

 

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Asal, the reason I am not keen on selling animals at markets is the same reason I don't want animals sold in pet shops. I want to see the end of puppy farmers and backyard breeders. I also want people to put some thought into buying a pet rather than doing it on impulse because they saw a cute puppy while they were out.

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asal   

I was getting a puppy vaccinated and the subject came up with my vet.  he suprised me very much and has had me really thining about the validity of what he said, hence my post above.

He said "we need puppy farmers. I have nothing against puppy farms, as long as they are well looked after and socialised, no one will be able to find a pet if only registered few litters a year breeders are left. People need to get real there are over 24 million australians who need a pet .

 

when will this madness stop and reality get a look in?"

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I knew someone who went to Parklea for fruit & veg. $700 later she'd "rescued" a bitch from there. Went back a few weeks later to buy a male to breed her with. No real idea if they're related. Probably are, severe jaw deformity on one. Tounge hangs out its mouth & everything ... but you know. .. she thinks its all good. Shes now a "[insert cutesy made up name for a chi x pug] breeder"

 

Its been said before - my issue is this impulse purchase of pets. Amongst other things. 

 

I do not believe we need puppy farms or anyone who looks at a domestic animal & sees dollar symbols   I believe we need caring ethical breeders who want to provide sound companion animals fit for purpose. & I don't believe Parklea fits that bill.

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moosmum   

As long we aren't educating  owners and buyers by discussion and by providing  experience and incentive to get it right, you are not going to prevent impulse buys or ignorance. Venues aren't the problem, lack of better expectation is and you won't change that until you demonstrate what people should expect, and their own responsibilities to achieve those expectations.

 

The more we remove dogs from the public eye, the less familiar people will be with dogs. The less familiar people are with dogs, the more mistakes will be made and lower the expectations will become.

 If people can't recognize an unhealthy dog that should not  be bought or bred, or poor condition(s) its because they have little familiarity with dogs, and little understanding of what they should expect.

Or the consequences of no expectations.

Yes, some are just concerned with the money- but they wouldn't be supported through sales if  people were  familiar with and taught to expect more.

 Just maybe, those who are only concerned with the money would also understand to expect more than that, and that their buyers do too.

 

If you want people to understand what 'doing it right' entails, Then  "doing it right" has to be a visible example to emulate.

Removing opportunity to do something at all just removes an ability to demonstrate ways it can be done better.

No expectations at all there.

Edited by moosmum

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I don't disagree with you entirely Moosmum & I certainly wouldn't say I'd want to remove dogs from the public eye. I also don't agree 100% either. I think there are two very distinct things here. 

 

1 - the conditions the animals were left in in this particular circumstance

2 - puppy farms / animals in pet shops. 

 

I think we could probably both agree 1 is not on. 

 

As for 2 I think you raise some good points. I'm not against animals being made visible for sale. I just don't understand why people need to walk in and purchase a poorly breed (usually young) animal while they're also buying fruit and veg. ??? I think there is a place for rescue animals in shop fronts (like the petbarn & other pet supply shop examples).  Sydney cats and dogs home also have a great deal with Urchin Book shop in Marrickville - Cats in a book shop - my idea of heaven!

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The problem is does anyone actually know of a puppy farmer that breeds companion animals that are sound of body and mind? Or one that offers health and genetic history and a guarantee? I've never seen an example of farming techniques used in relation to companion animals that replicated a home environment. I am also yet to even hear about a companion animal farm where the staff to animal ratio ensures socialisation. There is plenty of evidence of the opposite.

 

I don't think dogs and cats will be lost from the public eye if we remove puppy farmers or BYB's. In fact I think there will be plenty of oops litters, animals needing rehoming (for a variety of reasons) and increased registered breeder options perfectly fine for the size of our population and its capacity to own animals. Remember not all the population can or should own a pet (non-pet friendly rentals are increasing, as is the number of abuse and hoarding cases we are hearing about).

 

We need to radically reduce the creation of badly bred animals by people simply wanting to make money and we need to do that for the animals themselves who didn't ask us greedy humans to breed them in the first place. Do we want access to dogs just because we want them or do we actually care about their wellbeing and breed longevity? When I was a kid bitsa's got given away, not sold for thousands of dollars like a must have designer item. Well bred animals had to be sourced from a breeder and were much anticipated and cared for. They had value because we used our money more wisely. I now own a breed that was nearly extinct a couple of decades ago (a shar pei) and this one was surrendered into rescue as a puppy (with 2 siblings and the old mum) because the BYB had another litter due and my girl was getting a bit old to sell easily. That's how much things have changed and will continue to change - from extinction to surplus abandonment in one generation.

 

It is very wrong to me that a person making money from living things can get away with neglecting or dumping them if they decide they no longer have value. Do you think a puppy farmer rehomes old breeding bitches so they can live out their years peacefully? Nope. They don't want anyone to see the condition they have put them in and they are pts. Everything about their approach is wrong for animals.

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asal   

you have good points, the problem is to race to eliminate puppy farms is what brought in that attempt to pass in victoria that laws which meant NO ONE could have more than 10 breeding dogs or cats, or I think? birds for that matter.  that they would have to get an ABN and register as a business even if they had only ONE?

 

even more upsetting to me anyway, it also had that a breeder had one of only two options for their retired dog.  re home or euthanasia?

 

THAT IS big brother gone mad.  how dare they take away your right to keep your retired pets.  AND just because you breed from your dog does not negate them from being your pets, ar are a pretty sick bunch

 

 

 

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Firstly, I don't agree with the sale of animals in pet shops as it is currently done.

That said, all of these people all over the internet that were clamouring to have these particular animals removed that day, where would they have gone? At least they were inside in the market place, in open cages with airflow, with a huge amount of foot traffic going past (so any animals that were heat affected would be noticed and attended to immediately, if only to avoid looking bad in front of customers). Was the temperature any cooler anywhere else? Could they guarantee that the animals would have gone somewhere where the temperature was more appropriate for them? Or, more likely, would they have just been shoved "out the back" and away from the public's eye?

Hot weather just sucks, and everyone is uncomfortable when it's hot. Having lived through many summers/heat waves without air con and multiple animals, it is tough on everybody involved, especially when you're stuck not being able to escape from the heat.

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2 hours ago, disintegratus said:

Firstly, I don't agree with the sale of animals in pet shops as it is currently done.

That said, all of these people all over the internet that were clamouring to have these particular animals removed that day, where would they have gone? At least they were inside in the market place, in open cages with airflow, with a huge amount of foot traffic going past (so any animals that were heat affected would be noticed and attended to immediately, if only to avoid looking bad in front of customers). Was the temperature any cooler anywhere else? Could they guarantee that the animals would have gone somewhere where the temperature was more appropriate for them? Or, more likely, would they have just been shoved "out the back" and away from the public's eye?

Hot weather just sucks, and everyone is uncomfortable when it's hot. Having lived through many summers/heat waves without air con and multiple animals, it is tough on everybody involved, especially when you're stuck not being able to escape from the heat.

I see you're in Victoria so I'll assume you've not been to Parklee...

 

1. Very little airflow in there 

2. Very little foot traffic these days

3. The temp was probably not much cooler anywhere else - however the petition makes it sound as thought they animals were being traped up for the night. Knowing the venue, that's a horrible thought. 

4. There's not really an "out the back" so they;d have possible gone into a vehicle

 

but all  just huge assumptions on my behalf.  

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moosmum   

 I would not personaly buy a pup from a commercial enterprise. My experience and understanding is  that  the type of dog I look for has to be proven in a similar environment to that I would be keeping them in, and that he breeder has to have the same expectations of what they want in a dog as I do If my own expectations are likely to be met.

I think that, in a nut shell, is what we need to be teaching the pet buying public.

 

I don't expect guarantees. I think thats unrealistic. I do expect that the animals are selected for the purpose/environment they are fill,  from 'stock' tested as successful in that environment. That they are exposed to any conditions they are expected to handle to demonstrate they can.

That they are healthy, well cared for, and that the breeder/seller does have an understanding of selection for that purpose.

 

We will NEVER eliminate welfare issues. We CAN reduce them by shaping expectations of  better.

Parklea markets could as easily be pressured to do better. Provide and insist on more suitable conditions. The fact that there was an out cry shows that we are concerned with welfare and do want better. I just don't think out right bans do any more than to increase ignorance in the long term about the realities of animal husbandry, or selection.

I believe the increased ignorance from people isolated or unfamiliar with animals is largely what contributes to the impulse buys and support for less than optimal breeders.

 

The puppy farm that helped to combat the Victorian Legislation sounded like they were doing a pretty good job.  This should not be taken to say I think thats a good model.

But its likely better than 'some' pedigree breeders. As long as we are going to concentrate on the worst examples in order to ban whole environments for the breeding or selling of animals, we will find cause to ban all of them.

 

If you eliminate puppy farms and BYBers, that leaves ONLY pedigree breeders. Few oops litters. Pedigree breeders at present are so few they have little hope of meeting demand. No where near.  There would need to be huge change in attitude in pedigree breeders to meet the expectations of the PET buying public ( or working dog buyers)

to support a future demand.

At present, the main expectation placed on a pedigree breeder is that they meet the demands of the standard, as it is applied in the show ring. That is the test of a pedigree breeders success- That is the environment a pedigree is bred FOR, and tested in.

 

Yes, we need to reduce the incidence of badly bred animals. Animals being neglected, abandoned etc. I just think its far more effectively done if people are more fasmiliar with animals and what it is that contributes to the best of them, and to best of their keepers and that that is done best by example and demonstration.

 

If we showcase what brings  the best, people can learn to recognize it and seek it. They seek the rewards of it, and learn their responsibility to finding it. We have animals well integrated into a modern society.

If we show case the worst, people won't recognize what DOES work.  They will only learn what to avoid. They are taught there are  only costs associated with animal owner ship  . There is an expectation there is no place for animals in modern society. We expect the costs to be too great to justify them.

 

There are very few breeders these days willing to put themselves out there to show what they are doing,  what they achieve, and how it benefits the people who support them because we are all trying so hard to show the failures. There will be fault found in the best and thats what they will be held to account to.

 

Edited by moosmum

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juice   

These pups were already covered by a tarp ready to be left overnight in a metal shed still reading 44 degrees ! 

Pups are in small cages , out the front of the stall and spend allday getting poked and prodded through the wire crate by people . 

They are normally manky wormy looking pups .

And we found pups perfectly well before puppy farms . 

Edited by juice

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I think though if BYB and Puppy mills were somehow ended, and that wasn't an issue anymore, there would be more registered breeders. 

I would love to be a (registered) breeder, I find genetics quite fascinating and I love dogs and puppies (obviously), and would love to show and do dog sports. 

Although I doubt I will ever breed, because there are enough dogs and pups needing rescue that I feel I should be doing that instead.

(though I'm so glad there are awesome registered breeders, no issues with that) 

 

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moosmum   
On 19/02/2017 at 5:50 PM, juice said:

These pups were already covered by a tarp ready to be left overnight in a metal shed still reading 44 degrees ! 

Pups are in small cages , out the front of the stall and spend allday getting poked and prodded through the wire crate by people . 

They are normally manky wormy looking pups .

And we found pups perfectly well before puppy farms . 

Thats not O.K.

Maybe a petition calling for more over sight so that animals are housed in a climate controlled area, in cages large enough to to avoid poking and prodding and checked for health, microchips etc 1st?.

 

We shouldn't need puppy farms. I agree. When we make it common knowledge what goes into producing a healthy in body and mind pup suited to personal conditions of the buyer, puppy farms will not be viable. People will demand  better.

When we work to ensure its common knowledge, people will be more inclined to make better choices and take responsibility for them.

 

But if they are looking for dogs that will be happy in a small backyard or unit with minimal care attention or need for excersize,or social requirements, yet remain placid enough to be handled by children, elderly and vets etcs, then maybe puppy farms provide an environment where those things are selected for. If we are going to keep dogs as toys for the elite and out of the public eye and need for concern, then perhaps we are getting what we deserve and ask for.

 

As for more registered breeders taking up the slack, just look at the GSD thread in general.  If all breeders are following the trends in the show ring because thats the only acceptable bench mark of the breeds with out being classed as a BYBer, who is left to question the trends set there? ? Who is left to say  there is no need for a G.S.D to be the way the show judges favor, or for Pug to breathe if the K.C breed clubs are the only ones given authority to say what people should be allowed to own?

I think the pedigree system would utterly collapse within one human generation. I know it would.

 

Whos standards are we left with then, because  the  breed I have over 30 years experience with rarely meets MY standards when its bred  soley for those laid down by the breed clubs and selected and tested in the show ring.

Once we are there, where are you going to find buyers for these dogs who have any familiarity with  dogs,  their selection,  care and on going husbandry and needs?

 What standard of new members would you have and how much knowledge would be retained and passed on to them  by the older generation? It would decrease exponentialy. How may years does the average pedigree  breeder last now? Not many.

 

I believe puppy farms are a symptom of this idea that the 'common Man' should have little to do with dog breeding and selection because they are unfit, unless they are working within the limitations of a Pedigree organization.

 I believe  the lack of responsibility is too.   Because we refuse to believe its a possibility, we have to find the fault to condemn and hide the positives because we know dam well they will do the same to us.

 

Of course I think we should be doing better. But  I don't think we will get there by displaying every failure and expecting people to learn from that what possible to achieve or how its done.

I don't think we will get there by demanding every fault and mistreatment be made impossible to occurr.  I don't think it will happen if people doing good things are afraid to demonstrate what they have achieved because we are trained to find their failings and demand an end to them.

When we don't say 'It could be even better if you do this" we aren't teaching how to do better. Just how not to do it at all.

 

When only  K.C breeders are permitted or encouraged to breed or sell dogs, you will not have an environment that supports the breeding of dogs. You will have  K.Cs with no support, because they will breed for K.Cs and show accolades, not people.

Dogs  will be for K.C members only.

We are heading there. That is the direction thats being pushed.

 

Edited by moosmum

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asal   

spotted this on fb, the AR are what is behind all these laws that are powering though everyone's rights and if people don't start saying no to for example that bunch of laws that at the moment has been stopped in Victoria making it illegal to have even one fertile dog, male or female without applying for an ABN and registering as a business,( if that gets though end of having a dog in just about every council area) not allowed to own more than 10. even more disgusting, you only are offered two options for your retired dog, euthanasia or re-home, whatever happened to your right to keep your dog in retirement? They will not stop trying to get it though unless those who want pets say no them.

 

Read the photo, We already are struggling with the generation of kids who have never been taught the word NO. now they want our dogs and horses to be the same?

 

 

HOW OUT OF TOUCH ARE ANIMAL RIGHTS GROUPS?

Last week we featured Melbourne Against Horse-Drawn Carriages, a campaign run by the Animal Justice Party that considers even riding a horse "cruel" and a "form of domination".

Their major protest of the year on Valentine Day's featured protestors photographed wearing metal bits, which they also consider to be cruel. Once the horse community become aware of this group, their claims and the ridiculous protest photos the post went viral and got flooded with thousands of comments from all around the world from people who love for, care for, and yes, RIDE their horses.

The protest rapidly, and quite rightly, turned into a world wide laughing stock. MAHC's solution was just to delete the post featuring their main protest of the year, block everyone that disagreed with them (and pretend they were abusive), and ignore how out of touch they were.

Yet they continue. Today MAHC have posted asking for stories about "breaking free" from the "manipulation, coercion" and "relentless power struggle" with animals.

It is important to remember that this campaign is run by the Animal Justice Party and they are trying to convince animal lovers to vote for them. Let the AJP know you are an animal lover - and they DO NOT represent you.

The Coalition for the Protection of Racehorses claim to not be against other horse activities. Yet all of their public spokespeople ran for election for the AJP - a political party that runs campaigns against even riding a horse. Animal rights campaigners often target popular and high profile causes via social media as a stepping stone to further their other agendas.

We think it is time to show these animal rights groups how out of touch they are with the people who genuine love and care for their animals.

!ar blog.jpg

Edited by asal

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