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sandgrubber

If horse conformation followed GSD conformation

28 posts in this topic

ish   
2 hours ago, WoofnHoof said:

Gait. Locomotion. Footfalls. All very similar since both species walk on their digits. But hey I'm no expert on biomechanics so feel free to expand on why you think the comparison is soooo ridiculous. 

So everything with 4 feet should move the same? Cats should move the same as giraffes, cows should move the same as mice etc 

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1 hour ago, ish said:

So everything with 4 feet should move the same? Cats should move the same as giraffes, cows should move the same as mice etc 

Where the basic gaits are the same, walk, trot, canter/gallop, the footfalls are the same and the basic biomechanics. Some animals and breeds have an extra gait the pace which is also a lateral movement (yes giraffes do pace - gold star for you for googling locomotion!). How they utilise those gaits depends on their particular specialisations, and is reflected in their morphology, much the same way morphology has changed in domesticated animals according to our use of them. The GSD is all purpose working/herding animal, the trot is certainly an important pace for moving in straight lines and circles, but it shouldn't be highlighted to the point that the other gaits suffer, and that is where in hand showing can be detrimental to any animal where the full range of motion cannot be adequately assessed. 

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Mjosa   

The dog first on the second row of the attached by Asal is the way that I remember the GSD when I first started showing in the late 1960's, the GSDs of today do not have the strength in the hind quarters of that dog and they also have a slopey back.

I am very friendly with an all breeds judge, at one show I met up with him and we were watching the judging of the GSD's and he was disturbed at what he saw and said that he would not put any of them up, we had, he still does, Pem Corgis, yes I showed in the working group for years and know what I saw go up in the groups and more often than not we were battling to win against the beautiful majestic GSD, I did own one myself when I was younger, that would have been in the 1950's.

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bianca.a   

I know it has also been done to death but there is also a  difference between most working line and some show lines even here. My bitch is half/half (should never have been bred ) and my male is full WL. Both have nice straight backs and certainly do not look like the extremes in SL. However in saying that my male is from a great breeder who has never had a pup with HD and yet mine had bilateral THRs before he was 2. So HD can happen in any dog even ones with dams, sires with great elbow and hip scores. Shit happens.

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asal   

fascinating, rings true, applies equally to the show scene regardless of species

 

" Developmental changes in pedigree dogs is not a natural event. They are created by a ''very small number of very influential people" called 'breed authorities' selecting, promoting, line and in - breeding on dogs, very often their own dogs or dogs they bred that possess what are for them desirable features. 'Very often' in their selection of dogs for a specific desirable feature [trait] there are linked traits, linked traits are not uncommon, some are apparent some are not. These linked traits may be less than desirable but they are considered to be acceptable 'collateral damage', in other words they are considered to be a small price one has to pay in order to establish the primary trait! The point I make is that there can often be promotion of undesirable traits because they are genetically linked to a real or perceived desirable trait! So when the question is asked ''why did ''they'' promote dog's with a curved spine, the answer is 'there is no reason, there was no reason' it just came with the package. And so the appropriate response if someone asks the question is don't try to explain it because that is an impossible task, simply say its a good thing! Because these people are very influential, dogs with their preferred features win at dog shows and those that do not lose and the genetic frequency of the traits good and bad increase until they become the norm and the breed evolves accordingly. Once a characteristic is entrenched, once it becomes the norm meaning only dogs possessing those traits win at dog shows even if it is a bad trait self interest being placed above the breeds best interests makes it ''very difficult'' to eradicate and if it is eradicated it can take a long time to do so."

 

Here is the link it came from

 

http://www.louisdonald.com/the-evolution-of-the-back-of-the-gsd.html

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karen15   

thinking of mammals, I can't think of any with the angle of the back and hock positioning of the modern GSD. A giraffe has the angle, but their hinds are under them like a horse, not out behind. Same for elephant, bison etc. Hocks are always under quarters.

 

I agree with comments above re movement. Quadruped mammals have similar footfall patterns to my knowledge. Walk, trot, canter. Some eg horses are gaited and can have additional gaits such as pace and tolt.

 

some reading on gaits in mammals http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fneur.2015.00017/full

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4 minutes ago, sandgrubber said:

Conformation shouldn't be the same, but I expect some general patterns.  Horses and dogs are both quadraped mammals.  In nature most large quadraped mammals have near-vertical legs (ok, not roos).  You could have done the same demonstration with a lion or an elephant. 

Roos are predominantly bipedal with different gaits so we can say they are sufficiently different as to not be able to be compared with dogs or horses :)

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