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minxy

Kyojin has bitten someone - what would you do?

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minxy   

Pretty upset right now so please bear with me. 

 

Kyojin has just bitten my neighbour through the fence. My neighbour had come up to apologise to me for the disturbance the other night - a few nights ago I heard dogs snarling and barking and it sounded like someone was being mauled and I came out and their dog had gotten loose(usually chained up as he's dog aggressive and they have two other dogs that live in the backyard) and roamed up to our yard (we're on acreage so rural chain fencing and long driveways etc) and gone up to the fence line. I've just been told today that Kyojin bit him through the fence. So my neighbour and I were talking for a few minutes and he said "While you're here, I just want to try something" and walked closer to the fence. Kyojin jumped off the retaining wall and shoved his nose through the fence towards my neighbour. The man lifted his hand up (closed fist) and Kyojin immediately had a go at him and drew some blood and left a few marks. This all happened super quickly. I wasn't expecting my neighbour to put his hand up at all (thought he was just going to get closer and say hi while I was there too) but Kyojin didn't really give him much of a warning either.

 

Kyojin has had minor fights with other dogs before (he was attacked a few times as a puppy and eventually stopped liking other dogs) and also growled at my daughter twice before so I don't let them go anywhere near each other. We've only moved into this property just over a month ago so we have fenced the yard so that Kyojin has the back yard and Aria has the front and they don't go near each other.

 

He has never bitten anyone before but has growled at another child before - about the age of 10 at the time, not sure why as we were hosting a party and no one saw the interaction between the two as to whether the boy had done anything to antagonise him or not. 

 

Otherwise he had ALWAYS been very friendly with people his entire life. Bark if people would come near the fence, but no growling or snarling, and would wag his tail if they tried to go near him.

 

He's had health issues his entire life. Vomiting almost daily for as long as we can remember, luxating patella surgery 12 months, ACL surgery maybe two years after that, lupus since almost 3 years ago, and has been deaf for a year or two now as well. I know he's getting old and grumpy and particularly struggling since losing his hearing.

 

Obviously we'll take him to our vet first just to check him out but I don't know... is this now the time we need to be putting him down so that nothing more serious happens? I wouldn't say he has a great life anymore anyway but shit, this is not how this was supposed to happen. This wasn't supposed to be a decision I would have to consider. :cry::cry:

 

 

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I’m so sorry this has happened :( It’s always hard making these decisions, but a human aggressive dog with children at home is just a disaster waiting to happen, especially given that he’s been growling at them too.

 

A secure run is a possible solution, as long as he’s kept on lead when you’re walking him, but you’d need to make sure he couldn’t grab anyone near the fence since that seems to trigger him. I’m also not sure what his quality of life would be, but it’s an option if you don’t want him put down. Hope your neighbor is ok.

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Not a good situation.  Is your neighbor upset or filing charges? Or is he understanding?  Assuming the vet find no treatable cause, seems to me you should be thinking of ways to keep Kyojin out of situations where he could bite.  Muzzle? If it's just old age, it won't be getting better.

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dwynwen   

Awful situation.  Sounds like you are doing the right things - vet etc.   Can you double fence the area that people and other dogs are likely to approach?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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minxy   

Thank you for your replies, I appreciate it.

 

I don't think I would want to do a run given that our property should be secure and private enough as is, his age and the fact that he sleeps underneath our house almost the entire day anyway and doesn't bother anyone. He only bit my neighbour because he was idiotic enough to walk up the entire length of his driveway and come onto our property and stick his hand over "just to see what he'd do". He's already admitted that it was "90% his fault, 10% Kyojin's". He's never had a problem with anyone else coming to our property or had a go at anyone before. But obviously it is a huge concern to me now that this has happened.

 

The first time he growled at my daughter was when she and I were walking back inside the house at our old place and he came right up to the door too. She wrapped her arms around his neck to give him a hug and he growled at her. She was only 1 and as I said, we were in the doorway when he approached us so we weren't intentionally anywhere near him at all. I understand that as he's always hated anyone grabbing around his neck, but the second time he did it, maybe 6 months later, she was just sitting down on our patio outside and he went right over to her and gave out a quick growl. After this I never let her in the yard unless he was crated first. 

 

I know he's old (8 this year) and obviously having always had health issues and often been in pain etc that he's probably only likely to get worse but I don't know. BUT this also wouldn't have happened if my neighbour hadn't intentionally walked up the hill to come and test him in front of me. So I'm a bit torn. Possibly the muzzle idea Sandgrubber? I've never used one with a dog before but could be something to look into. 

 

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stellnme   

Minxy, what an idiot neighbour - I can't imagine what he was trying.  It sounds like you are well aware of Kyojin's behaviour and have managed it pretty well.  Maybe now is the time (after a vet check) to take even stronger measures and be more aware, especially around your daughter.  Maybe the vet will find something , but it sounds like your neighbour triggered the situation.

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juice   

my first reaction is [email protected] idiot!

I'm not sure of the law, perhaps you should shoot steve at k9 pro an email? he does lots of this stuff.

i think its a shame an elderly dog can not live out his days in peace on his own property, but i see the liability too.

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Put up a second fence or otherwise block where the neighbour can get his hand through.

 

See a force free behavioural trainer with expertise in aggression cases.

 

Check up at vets to rule out other contributing illnesses - including bloods.

 

See a veterinary behaviourist.

 

Tell neighbour steps you are taking and ask him not to put hands near fence while you sort out a better barrier.

 

And check your PMs in a minute or so. :)

 

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minxy   
26 minutes ago, juice said:

my first reaction is [email protected] idiot!

I'm not sure of the law, perhaps you should shoot steve at k9 pro an email? he does lots of this stuff.

i think its a shame an elderly dog can not live out his days in peace on his own property, but i see the liability too.

I know. That's what really bothers me. We moved out here to acreage for space and privacy. We've already spent a lot of time and money constructing more fencing to secure the property and section it off. (Not because we were worried about Kyojin as I wasn't until today, but to give him and my daughter separate yards and just keep him away from the yard and driveway etc). So his fenceline is about 80m back from the road and the neighbour lives below us on a hill, so he has to come up the hill in order to be able to even reach Kyojin. Which he did deliberately today as he intentionally stuck his hand in while Kyojin was barking at him just to see what he would do. We shouldn't have issues with anyone being able to just approach Kyojin otherwise and he sleeps the entire day minding his own business. The plan was for him to just see his days out here thinking he'd be comfortable. 

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4 hours ago, minxy said:

He's already admitted that it was "90% his fault, 10% Kyojin's". 

Time for him to admit it was 100% his fault and that he was a complete idiot.  

 

Not to mention the stress and unhappiness his stupidity is causing you.   

 

No advice, just my good wishes and sympathies.    

Edited by Dame Danny's Darling
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ness   

Is he on any meds if you think he is in pain? Maybe talk to a vet about adequate pain control if he isn't or altering what he is already on if he is. Not saying it will help but I know how important good pain management is for my girl and how much of a reduced threshold of tolerance to things when she is in pain.

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stellnme   
15 hours ago, minxy said:

I know. That's what really bothers me. We moved out here to acreage for space and privacy. We've already spent a lot of time and money constructing more fencing to secure the property and section it off. (Not because we were worried about Kyojin as I wasn't until today, but to give him and my daughter separate yards and just keep him away from the yard and driveway etc). So his fenceline is about 80m back from the road and the neighbour lives below us on a hill, so he has to come up the hill in order to be able to even reach Kyojin. Which he did deliberately today as he intentionally stuck his hand in while Kyojin was barking at him just to see what he would do. We shouldn't have issues with anyone being able to just approach Kyojin otherwise and he sleeps the entire day minding his own business. The plan was for him to just see his days out here thinking he'd be comfortable. 

He intentionally stuck his hand in just to see what he would do?  I was right - an idiot - who does that?

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juice   

A guy i often see while walking the dogs came over when i first got Zelda and pulled her tail, he said he wanted to see wether she had a good temp! words fail me sometimes!

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minxy   

Wow Juice, that's insane!

 

Thanks everyone for your kind words and advice. We are thinking we'll add some bamboo screening along the fence on that side of our property so that he can't put his hands in again and will get Kyojin vet checked to see whether there's anything else going on with him. We patted him down all over after it happened and he didn't flinch at anything, but obviously that doesn't mean there isn't something else wrong. 

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Dogsfevr   

I dont think it the end but you need to start accepting how his health issues place him at greater risk and manage it better.Yes I’m blunt but it’s a reality 

the loss of hearing with a breed that values its guard skills can be a struggle so you need to minimize risk .

re assess the pain meds and create his safe zone 

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corvus   

If he has recently had an altercation through that very fence with another dog acting aggressively, maybe he responded to the context more than anything. It may well be a one-off. 

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minxy   

Kyojin started to bark last night so I went straight down and when I got there, DH neighbour was talking to my other neighbour at the fenceline. They both turned around and said hi, it's all good, don't worry about him. The other neighbour said "So I've just heard about the vicious dog attack" (in a completely joking voice). I can't remember who said what next but then he said "Don't worry about it, he was the one stupid enough to put his hand through the fence of a barking dog". DH neighbour said "I wasn't trying to spread rumours or anything, just thought I'd let him know" I said that was all good, I was planning on letting him know as soon as I saw him too just in case he also had the same idea of trying to pat him to reassure him if Kyojin ever barked at him too. I could see him just rolling his eyes thinking what an idiot. I said I was planning on putting some bamboo screen across that side and they both said don't worry about it, Kyojin's never been a problem whatsoever before. He never barks, they always just see him sleep etc. 

 

DH neighbour then said he was tempted to see what happened if we let him into the yard with us!! I said please don't come in my yard, your last experiment didn't work so well. You're more than welcome to come to my house, but I wouldn't go near Kyojin again. 

 

Kyojin was definitely VERY upset by his presence at the fence yesterday. He didn't at all seem phased by my other neighbour but he REALLY doesn't like this one. 

 

I was glad that my other neighbour was supportive and that whatever DH had said to him about Kyojin or us hadn't changed his opinion in any way.

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3 hours ago, Dame Danny's Darling said:

I hope you can be a little bit easier now, @minxy.  Your DH neighbour is well named ...... even if it took me a couple of reads to get it :o  

 

I was confused! I thought maybe it meant downhill? You have made the penny drop! :laugh: 

Edited by Papillon Kisses
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