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Big D

Any wonder Breed Associations get a bad rep?

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Big D   

So the association for a particular breed invites queries to the Secretary and provides an email address. 

I wrote to ask their thoughts & opinions about certain things to do with the breed. 

It was a somewhat detailed email, a few paragraphs.  But I made it clear that what I was after was opinion/ advice.

 

Their reply:

"We have no pups available for you"

 

Now to be clear, whilst the exact nature of my queries is irrelevant, and like anything might be subject to interpretation, it had absolutely nothing to do with obtaining a puppy.  In fact it began and ended by explaining that I was after their opinion, and ironically the word puppy was never even used.

I wrote back, and rather than get miffed, I apologised for any confusion, pointed out that I wasn't looking for a Puppy, and repeated my request for advice.
I received no further reply.

Now I appreciate that as Breeders, they probably get inundated with "have you got any puppies" emails.  But if you're going to volunteer to be the Secretary of any organisation, surely you should at least read emails before dismissing them?

And one last point.  If you can't be bothered reading an email, why go to the extent of sending any reply?  And why, when brevity seems to be your aim, add the unnecessary "for you"?

Edited by Big D
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RuralPug   

Be interesting to see what the reply to your second email is -  possibly the Secretary made an error and sent you a reply intended for a different emailer?

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Dogsfevr   

I say give the volunteer a break .

People often don’t volunteer it comes down to no one else putting there hand up so the club goes under .

Yes the answer is strange,maybe it’s a generated reply or maybe they just had a sh*t happens moment and sent the wrong reply .

i actually don’t see how this gives breeders a bad rep though,tends to prove more that some people expect instant replies and if not what they get or maybe a mistake made people can’t wait to bitch .

I say give them a break and Atleast wait for a rep,y before jumping on the whinge bandwagon .

Its not like volunteers sit there to serve joe public they have a life too 

Edited by Dogsfevr
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Spiritze   

I have heard of that happening to a few people I know, Myself personally I have always spoken to amazing breeders who have been there for me through all of my annoying questions and have been more than helpful. 
Every breeder is different and sometimes people get the short end of the stick :shrug:
 

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JRG   
14 hours ago, Big D said:

I wrote to ask their opinion about certain things to do with the breed. 

It was a somewhat detailed email, a few paragraphs.  But I made it clear that what I was after was opinion/ advice

While I do not understand the reponse you got to your email, I must say that it is not a club secretary's job to to give an opinion.  It is his/her job to explain to you the position of the Club on any topic and give you facts whether he/she agrees with that position or not.  He/she is also not there to sell his/her own puppies or indeed recommend the litter of any particular member of the club.  All members of the club are entitled to equal treatment.

Having said all that, I can tell you that the questions club secretaries get asked vary from things like "where can I buy a dog whistle" to "where can I get an South American green xyz dog".  If you don't believe me come and answer my phone and emails for a while!!

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CandB   

I’ve found many people get taken aback when first contacting breeders and associations, especially if they’re new to the pedigree  dog world. 

Prospective owners are constantly told to do the responsibile thing by going to a “reputable breeder”, and so when they do start to look into buying their puppy, they’re quite shocked to find that many breeders are not only not interested in patting them on the back for searching them out (instead of going to an evil pet shop or supporting a puppy mill), but also not necessarily willing to sell a puppy unless the person meets their criteria. 

There aren’t too many situations where money changes hands in exchange for some sort of product in which the person selling isn’t happy to make the sale.

The general public typically aren’t aware that breeders don’t necessarily profit from the sale of pups, and that breeders certainly don’t consider their pups products in the first place! Meanwhile, breeders aren’t aware that buyers are truly shocked that there are not a bountiful supply of puppies at this place they’ve been told to be a good, responsibile person and go to to find their pet. 

 

Throw in the fact that most people don’t realise that breed associations are not based around making money but the love of the breed, and we have buyers wondering why the person “working” in a specific position comes across as annoyed with the very act of doing their “job”. 

 

It’s just an issue of communication and misinformation IMHO. Which is sad because if there were a little more info about contacting a breeder etc (only materials I’ve found are from overseas), and a lot less hype in the press, there’d be a lot less confusion and frustration all round.

 

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asal   

actually it really is a dyslectic situation.

 

people who want a puppy are continuously told they need to ensure the person with the puppies is not a puppy farmer, (terrible people who don't care for the parents let alone the puppies) must inspect, not only the owner but the parents (to ensure they aren't starving flea bags)  and where they are kept to make sure they aren't puppy farmers, in which case if they suspect this is the case report them to every agency, rspca, animal welfare and local council. My favorite was the father who told his family, "get in the car, we are leaving NOW!" When the wife and kids objected, his reply was "anyone who doesn't keep their dogs in the house are puppy farmers."

my hubby helped create the curricula and  taught "Animal Care" at Tafe for decades. He would never allow me to raise a litter in the house from the day we married on the grounds it is not hygienic or acceptable in the home, due to the quantities of poo and smell associated with the process of raising a litter.

 

then we have the "ethical" breeder, vet the prospect to ensure they actually do want a pet. (are not puppy farmers in disguise, ready to take their carefully raised baby and mercilessly breed him/her to death) If they dare ask for a main register puppy then they must be.

lost count of the number of people who have rung me still crying from the grilling and guilt trip imposed by the previous breeder/s they had called and asked the dreaded word. Yes I am old and raised in the days newbies were encouraged and in the old days breeders were proud to main register their best puppies even when it was going to a pet home just in case later the new owner may decide to join and continue that line.

 

no wonder there is so many problems, neither side is exactly looking at the other without acute suspicion  first up anymore.

 

Today being a dead end breeder is for some strange reason something to be proud of?

 

Do you really think puppy farmers care a hoot about papers?

To a Pet person its a source of pride their baby is good enough to be main register and could be shown or bred if they wanted to.  having been a registered breeder for some 40 years my experience is 99percent of puppy buyers never breed even one litter from their puppy, let alone decide to show.

 

But that 1% that do is what makes up the membership of that rapidly decreasing list of ankc members that so far are keeping the sinking numbers of the ankc afloat

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Big D   
On 10/21/2018 at 6:43 PM, asal said:

actually it really is a dyslectic situation.

 

But that 1% that do is what makes up the membership of that rapidly decreasing list of ankc members that so far are keeping the sinking numbers of the ankc afloat

Great Post, thank you.

I fear these breed associations are fast becoming an anachronistic irrelevance.
They claim to occupy the moral highground, and pontificate at length about the evils of everything, but actually do precious little to protect or promote their breeds.  They need to lose their arrogance and understand that THEY are the aberration. 

Dogs are pets or working dogs.  The vast majority of owners have no interest in breeding, and fewer still any interest in the arcane art of dog shows.
Unless they can find a way down out of their ivory towers, and start engaging with the REAL dog owners, they will be reduced to a sideshow.  IMHO that would be pity, and to the detriment of the breeds, but the ball is in their court.

The sad thing is that they seem to not even realise how out of touch they are.

 

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On 10/21/2018 at 11:43 PM, asal said:

actually it really is a dyslectic situation.

 

people who want a puppy are continuously told they need to ensure the person with the puppies is not a puppy farmer, (terrible people who don't care for the parents let alone the puppies) must inspect, not only the owner but the parents (to ensure they aren't starving flea bags)  and where they are kept to make sure they aren't puppy farmers, in which case if they suspect this is the case report them to every agency, rspca, animal welfare and local council. My favorite was the father who told his family, "get in the car, we are leaving NOW!" When the wife and kids objected, his reply was "anyone who doesn't keep their dogs in the house are puppy farmers."

my hubby helped create the curricula and  taught "Animal Care" at Tafe for decades. He would never allow me to raise a litter in the house from the day we married on the grounds it is not hygienic or acceptable in the home, due to the quantities of poo and smell associated with the process of raising a litter.

 

then we have the "ethical" breeder, vet the prospect to ensure they actually do want a pet. (are not puppy farmers in disguise, ready to take their carefully raised baby and mercilessly breed him/her to death) If they dare ask for a main register puppy then they must be.

lost count of the number of people who have rung me still crying from the grilling and guilt trip imposed by the previous breeder/s they had called and asked the dreaded word. Yes I am old and raised in the days newbies were encouraged and in the old days breeders were proud to main register their best puppies even when it was going to a pet home just in case later the new owner may decide to join and continue that line.

 

no wonder there is so many problems, neither side is exactly looking at the other without acute suspicion  first up anymore.

 

Today being a dead end breeder is for some strange reason something to be proud of?

 

Do you really think puppy farmers care a hoot about papers?

To a Pet person its a source of pride their baby is good enough to be main register and could be shown or bred if they wanted to.  having been a registered breeder for some 40 years my experience is 99percent of puppy buyers never breed even one litter from their puppy, let alone decide to show.

 

But that 1% that do is what makes up the membership of that rapidly decreasing list of ankc members that so far are keeping the sinking numbers of the ankc afloat

So why do so many breeders refuse to sell to people who may want to have a litter? That 1% could be a lot higher if breeders weren't so precious about who is fit to have a litter. 

And, BTW, modern evidence suggests that overly hygienic conditions result in weak immune systems... a litter in the house may contribute to kids being asthma free and less vulnerable to colds. 

Edited by sandgrubber
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Rebanne   
6 hours ago, Big D said:

Great Post, thank you.

I fear these breed associations are fast becoming an anachronistic irrelevance.
They claim to occupy the moral highground, and pontificate at length about the evils of everything, but actually do precious little to protect or promote their breeds.  They need to lose their arrogance and understand that THEY are the aberration. 

Dogs are pets or working dogs.  The vast majority of owners have no interest in breeding, and fewer still any interest in the arcane art of dog shows.
Unless they can find a way down out of their ivory towers, and start engaging with the REAL dog owners, they will be reduced to a sideshow.  IMHO that would be pity, and to the detriment of the breeds, but the ball is in their court.

The sad thing is that they seem to not even realise how out of touch they are.

 

wow, what a "interesting" post. I'm a breeder and a shower and guess what; I'm a REAL dog owner as are pretty much every shower/breeder I know.  Did you not just buy a purebred lab puppy? Did it not come from a registered breeder? Or was it from some BYB? If I was the breeder of your pup I'd be pretty disappointed in your comments.

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asal   
1 hour ago, Rebanne said:

wow, what a "interesting" post. I'm a breeder and a shower and guess what; I'm a REAL dog owner as are pretty much every shower/breeder I know.  Did you not just buy a purebred lab puppy? Did it not come from a registered breeder? Or was it from some BYB? If I was the breeder of your pup I'd be pretty disappointed in your comments.

dont guilt trip Rebanne.

I was at a school sports day and there also watching was a lady with a litter of absolutely beautiful cavalier puppies. Their new owners were comming to pick them up that day but she didnt want to miss watching her daughter's sports day so combined both.

as the puppies played and were rolling in the grass, I noticed they all had stitches recently removed. knowing the high incidence of hernias in some lines I expressed my sympathy how disappointed she must feel that the whole litter had to need surgery to fix them. 

to my surprise she blushed and stammered, "no they didn't have hernia's. I've desexed them, All the new owners insisted that although they didnt want to breed with their pup, but wanted it as a pet, but wanted main registration,  so I simply desexed them all. that way I dont have to worry about them lying and they cant complain down the track when the dog wont breed because I have it on their contract they wanted a pet and didn't intend to breed."

So? I asked, you haven't told them you have desexed them?

 

she said many of her friends are doing the same thing to people who insist they want main registration.

 

not long after I leased back one of my girls to her breeder who had lost her line due to misfortune to breed a replacement puppy. I was supposed to get second pick in return.  When the puppies were born she told me there were three she couldn't decide between so I had fourth pick.  The lease included the option of a second litter if she felt none of the first were up to the standard she was looking for, which seemed reasonable to me at the time when we wrote up the lease.  She had seven in the first litter all female.  After I picked my puppy up  she called a week later to tell me she had decided to go for the second litter option, so I asked her for the girl in the litter I had really wanted but she said was one of the ones she was deciding on. To learn she had already sold all three. all on limit with desexing contracts.

second litter she had 8 to choose from but sold every one .  so out of 15 puppies she kept none. but my bitch returned her $35,000  none of the second litter went on main register either.

 

which now meant I could not use her myself for well  over a year.

 

There are some strange people out there, me included

 

Editing to add, There was no service fee payable as she owned the sire, the bitch had absolutely no problems delivering and raising both litters , the only vet expenses incurred was their vaccinations, plus the cost of feeding mum and her puppies. Which can and does happen.

Edited by asal

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asal   

I have bred and registered five different breeds over the decades since purchasing my first purebred, the toy Poodle Bel Ami Piccolo.

 

regardless of the breed I and I believer the majority to breed, select to produce the best possible.

 

have always had the breed of dog of my dad, who guarded me in my pram as a baby and toddler. Australia's best kept secret, the ACD

 

was just sent these photos of one of my pups, I think his owner has an amazing talent for photography so thought I should share. His name is Cooper

 

 

cooper 3.jpeg

cooper.jpeg

cooper 2.jpeg

Edited by asal
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CandB   
3 hours ago, Rebanne said:

wow, what a "interesting" post. I'm a breeder and a shower and guess what; I'm a REAL dog owner as are pretty much every shower/breeder I know.  Did you not just buy a purebred lab puppy? Did it not come from a registered breeder? Or was it from some BYB? If I was the breeder of your pup I'd be pretty disappointed in your comments.

Pardon my interjecting here.

 

The breeders I know are like you, “real” owners who are realistic and in touch with the needs of both their dogs and dog owners alike. I imagine many others are, too. 

Unfortunately, a good breeder - not a “reputable” breeder but a “good person who cares about dogs and lives in the real world” - isn’t the easiest thing to find. 

Nor will they necessarily have litters available at all or most times, nor will they likely even need to advertise. 

So we wind up with the following situation:

Person wishes to buy a dog (yes, I know they are sentient beings, dammit I don’t even like saying  the word “buy”! But we are technically discussing a financial transaction of property here, bad as it sounds). 

Person (and here is the big issue) HAS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT PUPPIES ARE HARD TO COME BY. And why should they, when news segments refer to Spring as Puppy/Kitten season, when councils argue that all animals must be de sexed as we are overrun with purebred Golden Retrievers at present etc etc...

Person goes to do the right thing by contacting “a breeder”.

 

**I will use an uninformed but well intentioned person here**

 

Both person and breeder are shocked at the impressions the other party are under (things like waiting for a puppy, inspecting premises etc, contentious and confusing issues for those unfamiliar with breedings). 

Person feels disheartened at the thought of not being good enough for a dog.

Person then goes to BYB so that they can at least shed the stigma of not being good enough for a purebred pup. 

 

It could be due to the size of Australia in part, but finding your breeder can seem like gaining membership to an exclusive and secret society. Breeders may not know this, probably because they are too busy caring for their dogs (and rightly so). 

 

All comes back to information and communication IMO. Get the word out to people that they may need less time to fall pregnant than to find a pup. Give breeders a way of communicating easily with the public. Change the misconceptions that are perpetrated in the media (“just pop on down to your local breeder for as many puppies as you would like! And now! Right now! Go on!”). 

 

And now I’ll shut up and go see if the dogs are still snoozing or are ready for a play lol.

Edited by CandB
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Tassie   
10 hours ago, Big D said:

Great Post, thank you.

I fear these breed associations are fast becoming an anachronistic irrelevance.
They claim to occupy the moral highground, and pontificate at length about the evils of everything, but actually do precious little to protect or promote their breeds.  They need to lose their arrogance and understand that THEY are the aberration. 

Dogs are pets or working dogs.  The vast majority of owners have no interest in breeding, and fewer still any interest in the arcane art of dog shows.
Unless they can find a way down out of their ivory towers, and start engaging with the REAL dog owners, they will be reduced to a sideshow.  IMHO that would be pity, and to the detriment of the breeds, but the ball is in their court.

The sad thing is that they seem to not even realise how out of touch they are.

 

Not sure if you're talking about the breed clubs, or the ANKC here.   But even if you're talking about the breed clubs, please be aware that many of them are involved in many more activities than showing, and for some clubs, probably the majority of members are not involved in breeding.   Many clubs run activities pertinent to their breed … Gundog Clubs may run retrieving trials, gundog ability tests, and may also run tracking, obedience, rally and agility trials.    Other breed clubs may run herding trials, as well as obedience, agility,, rally and tracking.   Hound clubs may run lure coursing,  Bernese Mountain Dog Clubs may run Drafting competitions, Terrier clubs may run Earth Dog competitions …. and so it goes on.   These are activities which many cases are open to entries from non pedigreed dogs, through the Associate Register program of the ANKC.

 

So it's not all about breeding or the "arcane" world of conformation showing.  These are "real dog owners' spending their time training and competing with their pet dogs, because other dog owners, including Breed Club committees have given up their time to organize the competitions.

 

Sorry that was a bit of a rant … but I think sometimes forget the work of the ANKC and its affiliates in providing a wide range of activities for all dog owners .. and almost all of that is done by volunteers.   Just saying ….

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Dogsfevr   
On 10/25/2018 at 7:28 AM, Rebanne said:

wow, what a "interesting" post. I'm a breeder and a shower and guess what; I'm a REAL dog owner as are pretty much every shower/breeder I know.  Did you not just buy a purebred lab puppy? Did it not come from a registered breeder? Or was it from some BYB? If I was the breeder of your pup I'd be pretty disappointed in your comments.

Its seems they brought a mutt  a Lab cross Kelpie .Maybe they are wanting a pure breed club to give info for which they cant .
 

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Big D   

Some predictably knee-jerk reactions.

 

I own Pedigreed dogs of a particular breed, always have and hopefully always will.

 

The simple fact is that the vast majority of dogs are pets.  The next largest population, in Australia, would be working dogs.

Yes, a lot of Pet Buyers are ignorant, and these associations COULD have a huge role in educating them, I just wish they would do more to engage with the public outside their own small clique.

 

I'm sure, that as within any population, there are wide variety of individuals within these organisations and clubs.  I've met some wonderful people over the years; open, friendly, welcoming, informative.  I've been invited to their homes, their kennels, and their shows. 
Unfortunately I have also met some rude and ignorant snobs.  I guess that's just the human race.  If only the associations were run by the dogs themselves we wouldn't have a problem.

Keep in mind that my OP was regarding the response from the association rep that (via their website) publicly invites queries and questions.

Edited by Big D
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asal   

Really nice lot of people in the Australian Cattle Dog Club

 

just received coopers baby pics and his beach shot from last year.

the one on the beach ended up in the ACD clubs Calender for 2018

cooper 2017.jpeg

cooper baby.jpeg

Edited by asal
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CandB   

Oh, asal, you have made my day! What gorgeous dogs. Love me an ACD, they are just beautiful mates to have! 

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Rebanne   

You've got a cross bred pup, how can you expect any breed club to give you advise? It's only a guess which dog got to the Mum as no mating was seen. There's only a guess on what the dog (possible sire) is unless they saw that mating as well. Breed clubs are run by volunteers. I would think the Lab club is fairly busy with enquiries for purebred labs. Yes they could have replied differently but you couldn't expect much more then sorry we can't help with your crossbreed pup, maybe ask your vet, hope all goes well, type of reply.  Same for the kelpie club (if there is one).

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asal   
On 25/10/2018 at 5:49 AM, sandgrubber said:

So why do so many breeders refuse to sell to people who may want to have a litter? That 1% could be a lot higher if breeders weren't so precious about who is fit to have a litter. 

And, BTW, modern evidence suggests that overly hygienic conditions result in weak immune systems... a litter in the house may contribute to kids being asthma free and less vulnerable to colds. 

my daugher spent not only her baby years but all her childhood surrounded by dogs, horses, ponies, chooks, cattle, cats and any wildlife in need of care.  she was exposed to cat dander, dog dander, horse dander, cattle dander, chook dander and anything else the wildlife had.  I am allergic to every single animal dander on that list, despite the fact I too grew up with my dads dogs always around and in the case of blue, always beside me as for the cats?   dozens of them until the vet explained to my puzzled mum that brothers have no aversion to putting their sisters in kitten so they all got the desexing chop, and there was nearly 100 by the time mum learned that life lesson.

Asthma killed my dads father just before I was born, mums advice was dont marry anyone with asthma in their family as it sure in in your dads family.  unkbeknown to me my mother in law was a massive asthmatic, just all the medications kept her going so not happy when i discovered that and sure enough my daughter gets asthma, my only consolation I sure made sure she was exposed to every possible contaminate from the day she come home from hospital, everywhere she crawled she had Debbie her very own ACD guarding and probably covering in her dog dander from day one.

 

was pretty gobsmacked when the doc told me , "long as you avoid dogs, cats, horses, cattle and chook's you will be fine!"

 

so still have all of the above but keep my puffers in my purse for emergencies.. it is hereditary as well is my guess..  the biggest surprise is the worst attacks are triggered by none of the above, drop the air tempretature below  4C....I start wheezing.. below minus C and without the puffers... curtains

 

so early exposure isn't the guarantee the doc's would like us to think it is

Edited by asal

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