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SamToocan

Brindle Pug in Australia

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Hi guys, just wondering if anyone has ever come across a brindle pug/ how common are they? My black male and female have just produced a brindle female and cannot find any info as to wether there are many in Australia. 

Many if I would be appreciated :) 

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RuralPug   

Sorry to have to tell you this, Sam, but brindle colouration/pattern simply does not exist on the Pug genome. As the breed is several thousand years old colours and pattern are well established and the genes known.
So called "brindle pugs" have been accepted in some rather dodgy overseas registries after  crossbreeding with French Bulldogs or Boston Terriers has been introduced, and some owners have been duped into believing that their crossbred brindle is pure Pug, but sorry it just ain't so.

The ANKC has assured concerned Pug Clubs here that "brindle pugs" will never be accepted in this country and to prevent unscrupulous people importing dogs with other breeds in their ancestry to "rare" colours. are currently inspecting litters of certain breeds before the pups can be registered.

It would seem that one or both of your dogs has breed or breeds other than Pug in its its background which has now turned up in the puppies. This doesn't mean that the puppies won't still make excellent pets, however to call the puppies purebred Pugs would not be honest, and if both parents were sold to you as pure then someone, somewhere along the line has been dishonest.

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5 minutes ago, RuralPug said:

It would seem that one or both of your dogs has breed or breeds other than Pug

or, is there the possibility the bitch was mated by some other dog ...maybe a different breed ? 

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Brindle like markings show up from time to time in Labs.  It's a rare, recessive gene. 

I'd guess it's similar with pugs. I wouldn't worry about it or be overly concerned about impure genetics.  I'll likely get flamed for saying this, but my guess is that few dogs are entirely pure bred if you go back a century or so.  Given the huge changes in the appearance of pugs over time, I wouldn't be surprised to find a bit of cross breeding was done to get to the modern extreme brachycephalic form.

Color, though one of the most obvious of parts of genetics, is largely (apart from white as affecting deafness and the problems od double merle) unimportant to health and temperament. 

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RuralPug   
2 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

Brindle like markings show up from time to time in Labs.  It's a rare, recessive gene. 

I'd guess it's similar with pugs. I wouldn't worry about it or be overly concerned about impure genetics.  I'll likely get flamed for saying this, but my guess is that few dogs are entirely pure bred if you go back a century or so.  Given the huge changes in the appearance of pugs over time, I wouldn't be surprised to find a bit of cross breeding was done to get to the modern extreme brachycephalic form.

Color, though one of the most obvious of parts of genetics, is largely (apart from white as affecting deafness and the problems od double merle) unimportant to health and temperament. 

LOL Brindle must be extremely rare and recessive in Pugs if it hasn't shown up in several thousand years until a few decades ago! There may have been chimera Pugs of course as that mutation can happen in most breeds but that is most unlikely to have been confused with brindle, even by a complete newcomer to dogs!

And you forget that in many breeds health problems are linked with dilute colours (which is why those colours, although in the genome of that breed, are not approved in the standard of many breeds) as well as double piebald (in some breeds only) and double merle (in some breeds only again) and white linked deafness (which can be bred out with correct testing).

In other breeds, colours not approved in the standard may be due to the original purpose of the breed (for instance some sheep herding breeds did not permit white in the standard as it made them too difficult to distinguish from the sheep) which I am sure pet owners are not concerned about, but breed purists wish to retain as a link with the history of the breed.

I have to agree that colour is less important than health and temperament in any individual dog, but it is equally as important as any other part of the breed standard. Breed standards are of course only of interest to those of us who work to ensure breed purity.

So when a colour arises that proves that breed purity has been compromised, that needs to be made clear so that the general public is not duped into believing that a breed they like has a "new" or "rare" colour when it is quite simply, not so.

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55 minutes ago, RuralPug said:

LOL Brindle must be extremely rare and recessive in Pugs if it hasn't shown up in several thousand years until a few decades ago! There may have been chimera Pugs of course as that mutation can happen in most breeds but that is most unlikely to have been confused with brindle, even by a complete newcomer to dogs!

And you forget that in many breeds health problems are linked with dilute colours (which is why those colours, although in the genome of that breed, are not approved in the standard of many breeds) as well as double piebald (in some breeds only) and double merle (in some breeds only again) and white linked deafness (which can be bred out with correct testing).

In other breeds, colours not approved in the standard may be due to the original purpose of the breed (for instance some sheep herding breeds did not permit white in the standard as it made them too difficult to distinguish from the sheep) which I am sure pet owners are not concerned about, but breed purists wish to retain as a link with the history of the breed.

I have to agree that colour is less important than health and temperament in any individual dog, but it is equally as important as any other part of the breed standard. Breed standards are of course only of interest to those of us who work to ensure breed purity.

So when a colour arises that proves that breed purity has been compromised, that needs to be made clear so that the general public is not duped into believing that a breed they like has a "new" or "rare" colour when it is quite simply, not so.

There are a lot of myths about breed origin.  Genetic studies put the pug quite close to the Jack Russell.  https://retrieverman.net/2012/04/22/pugs-have-changed-a-bunch/

Not surprising given that pugs were in Europe for hundreds of years before the breed registry was established.  I wouldn't put a lot of faith in that claim of "several thousand years", and very much suspect that pug origins are a Mish mash. 

Okay there may be other health problems with color links... I've never heard of any problem with brindle...other than making people ask if the neighbor's dog jumped the fence.  Brindle marked Labs are embarrassing to the breeder and tend to be quietly disposed... more recently to pet homes at reduced price... historically I'd bet many were killed. 

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asal   

Chimera is not a mutation.

 

it is two twins that have merged as one individual.  two pretty famous brindle horses have be discovered to be Chimera's

 

Sharp One  and Dunbars Gold are chimera's.

 

in Sharp One's case she has one ovary belonging to her and one to her twin. 

 

In Dunbar's Gold's case his twin is his sister.

 

yet he is fully fertile.

 

https://horse-canada.com/magazine_articles/health-q-a-what-is-a-chimera/

 

https://thehorse.com/154772/one-in-a-million-part-2/

 

both Sharp one and Dunbar's gold at the bottom of this page   http://www.justabrindlehorse.com/brindle-horses/

 

 

 

Edited by asal

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asal   
3 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

There are a lot of myths about breed origin.  Genetic studies put the pug quite close to the Jack Russell.  https://retrieverman.net/2012/04/22/pugs-have-changed-a-bunch/

Not surprising given that pugs were in Europe for hundreds of years before the breed registry was established.  I wouldn't put a lot of faith in that claim of "several thousand years", and very much suspect that pug origins are a Mish mash. 

Okay there may be other health problems with color links... I've never heard of any problem with brindle...other than making people ask if the neighbor's dog jumped the fence.  Brindle marked Labs are embarrassing to the breeder and tend to be quietly disposed... more recently to pet homes at reduced price... historically I'd bet many were killed. 

so true, a few decades ago I had a litter of chihuahua puppies, one went on to become an australian champion, two of her brothers were "interesting" one was a perfect example of a parti pom, gold and white. he too could have become an australian champion but in an entirely different breed standard.  The other was as perfect a chi as his sister but grew so big he ended up weighing ten kg although he was overweight but his owners mum kept overfeeding him.

 

at their first vaccinations their vet was just as confused.. asked me "have you taken up breeding poms"... no!

"Ha so you have fostered a pom puppy? " .... no!

"your not going to tell this is all the same litter?" ...yes!

 

and nope, there wasn't a male pom in miles of the place...  although in the case of chihuahua's they did have both pom and papillion introduced to create the long coat chi, all were originally smooth coat so hundreds of years on the apparently pure pom and pure papillion's turn up in litters, not that anyone talks about it.

 

as for the brindle pug, probably the gene is there all along.  Same as red angus and red fresien cattle, they have been quietly culled for a few hundred years too.

 

some breeds embrace all colours others pick and choose what can be registered.

 

look at all the amazing colours discovered hiding in the wild budgie and the cockatiel although in their case none are banned unlike some dog breeds

 

even blue and chocolate cavaliers exist but not accepted by the ankc's

http://cochranscavaliers.com/chocolate-cavaliers/

 

Edited by asal
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juice   

Advert for rare bridle pug appearing soon . 

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Sam

 

To those who are suggesting that brindle has been there all along, false..  pugs ONLY carry genes for fawn spectrum and black . All purebred pugs carry the melsnistuc mask gene, therefore the “pugs” you see that are eyed colours without a mask have been crossbred.

 

during the development of French. Bulldogs a lot of strange colours appeared but these were Cross bred and NEVER purebred pug .

 

brindle is not produced by breeding fawn to black .

 

Sam you bred the puppy - did you breed the parents and do you or other friends or family have a dog that could have gotten to your girl?

 

do you have full DNA profiling for both parents and the pups ? 

 

i assume these are ANKC registered pugs ?  Have you spoken to the Breeder(s) of your dogs about this  

 

are you you able to post pics of pup and parents ?

 

At this stage the puppy will not be able to be ANKC registered 

 

Looking forward to your replies 

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Thanks for your input everyone :) 

Yes I bred them my female was artificially inseminated. There is absolutely no change any other male got to her. 

Whilst I understand that she cannot be registered as 'pure' as we don't recognise the colour brindle in pugs, I was more asking if anyone had come across them in Australia out of general curiosity as I haven't. Both the parents were sold as pure but were not registered. I am currently looking into getting them both DNA tested to see where the brindle is coming from :)  

I would attach pictures but I am unsure how if anyone can enlighten me I will add some 

thanks guys 

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Rebanne   

My educated guess is that one of the parents is not a purebred, hence the brindle turning up. There are unscrupulous people breeding brindle "pugs", and promoting them as rare and charging $1000's for them. But they are not ANKC registered. And in fact are not pugs.

 

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haoxian   

Sam

Any chance of a Photo of the Litter?

Perhaps one of the Sire & the Dam?

Only Brindle in Pugs is a CROSS-Breed.. 

Which unfortunately means that one of your dogs is a CROSS-Breed 

DNA Doesn't lie & as stated by others the Pug only carries Fawn & Black.. 

Having done an AI I can only assume it was performed by Vet & the supporting documentation should provide details of the Sire.. 

Would there be any harm in disclosing the Sire & Dam?

There are a few dodgy Semen Imports from O/Seas with falsified Pedigree Papers.. 

We can get to the bottom of this for you & locate where the Brindle comes from.. Sadly it is not from a Pug.. Most likely a French Bulldog cross somewhere along the line. 

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Dogsfevr   

We board a Staffy x Pug .It looks totally pure Pug except on the larger scale but is Brindle ( I have handled Pugs in the Ring) .

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sheena   

When you said your female was artificially inseminated, so you mean that she was produced by AI. Your OP says that the pup is a mating between your male & female dogs.  I am confused !!

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RuralPug   
6 minutes ago, sheena said:

When you said your female was artificially inseminated, so you mean that she was produced by AI. Your OP says that the pup is a mating between your male & female dogs.  I am confused !!

When a female is AI'd, (any species) it means that the offspring she produces from that breeding was by AI and not necessarily by natural mating. The female herself was not necessarily produced by AI.

Even when a bitch is artificially inseminated, it is still called a mating (or matings plural if semen from more than one dog is used, which is allowed if the the litter is DNA'd for parentage).
Does that clear it up for you?

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Rebanne   
21 minutes ago, sheena said:

When you said your female was artificially inseminated, so you mean that she was produced by AI. Your OP says that the pup is a mating between your male & female dogs.  I am confused !!

The litter was produced by AI. Could be Surgical or TCI which usually involves frozen or chilled semen. Sometimes fresh. A fresh semen AI is often performed by a vet or an experienced breeder when, for some reason, the 2 dogs aren't managing the whole mating bit on their own. I doubt, but am happy to be corrected by the OP,  that it was a frozen/chilled semen mating. Very pricey.

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haoxian   
2 hours ago, SamToocan said:

I am unsure how to attach pics :( 

Pretty simple really There is a little tag down below each message that says Drag Files here to attach or Choose Files..

IF you are having that issue then perhaps Pedigree Details of the Sire & Dam.. 

I am Assuming they are both Registered Pure Bred Pugs ??? 

 

Capture.JPG

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RuralPug   
9 hours ago, asal said:

Chimera is not a mutation.

 

it is two twins that have merged as one individual.  two pretty famous brindle horses have be discovered to be Chimera's

 

Sharp One  and Dunbars Gold are chimera's.

 

You are quite correct regarding chimera in horses.

In dogs however, chimeras are most often due to a somatic mutation restricted to colour and pattern genetics only. There seems to be a weak spot in the chromosomes that is easily fractured. These dogs have the same DNA throughout their body and their mutation is not transmitted to offspring.

In biological science, these dogs would be called "mosaic" rather than "chimera" but nevertheless chimera is the common term used.

 

 

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