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asal

interesting point raised, bit late though

10 posts in this topic

This sort in of thing makes me a bit cross, really.  I am sure they are out there, but I don’t know of any rescuers who “vilify or discourage” responsible breeding.  

 

There are irresponsible rescue organisations and people, just as there are irresponsible and unethical breeders breeding dogs who can hardly breathe, GSD who can hardly walk, Westies whose skin conditions ensure a life of misery, etc etc etc.   

 

I don’t know who this Beret Walsh is, but she needs to take off the blinkers.   

 

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asal   

LOL from what I've seen its fellow breeders who do the Vilifying 

 

walking to a different drum in the dog world is a bit like risking the witch trials

 

one points the finger and the pack attack starts.

 

Its funny how much dog people without even noticing are mimicking their dogs, or is it they are just reverting to age old instinct?  be an interesting study for some ones PhD perhaps?

 

what I find amusing is when a serial finger pointer one day has one pointed at them and their complete bewilderment when its their turn.

 

Have never stopped to think how bewildered their past targets felt too.

 

The human race just keeps repeating the past,  although tend to give the inquisitions new names

Edited by asal
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2 hours ago, Loving my Oldies said:

This sort in of thing makes me a bit cross, really.  I am sure they are out there, but I don’t know of any rescuers who “vilify or discourage” responsible breeding.  


I come across stacks of people vilifying any breeding, but I wouldn’t say they are rescue groups as such, more individuals.

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juice   

I agree with the post , I’m sick of people making me feel bad for having purebred dogs . 

“ Don’t shop , adopt” , or Don’t buy , rescue “ . 

I happen to like certain breeds and I certainly wouldn’t get a rescue one as they are all badly bred and dodgy . 

On the other hand I’d like a grey again one day and that I would happily be a rescue . 

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Scratch   

I like purebred dogs. 
and I like mixed type dogs

i understand that ‘responsible breeding’ is not exclusive to pedigree breeding. 
in fact,  the limited gene pool & purity mentality of pure bred breeding is less than ethical if you really understand that it can only go in one direction! 
No amount of genetic testing can undo the damage that ‘purity’ has done, if ‘purity’ is insisted. 
It would actually be more ethical & responsible for domestic dogs as a species, to allow much more out crossing and mixing of genes. If science were applied here instead of the headlong slow motion train wreck of purity, domestic dogs might have a brighter future. 
trying to lock in forever, just a 100-150 yrs (for the most part) of  ‘breeds that we know and love’ is nonsensical for the long future of domestic dogs. 

 

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asal   
On 31/12/2019 at 6:00 PM, Scratch said:

I like purebred dogs. 
and I like mixed type dogs

i understand that ‘responsible breeding’ is not exclusive to pedigree breeding. 
in fact,  the limited gene pool & purity mentality of pure bred breeding is less than ethical if you really understand that it can only go in one direction! 
No amount of genetic testing can undo the damage that ‘purity’ has done, if ‘purity’ is insisted. 
It would actually be more ethical & responsible for domestic dogs as a species, to allow much more out crossing and mixing of genes. If science were applied here instead of the headlong slow motion train wreck of purity, domestic dogs might have a brighter future. 
trying to lock in forever, just a 100-150 yrs (for the most part) of  ‘breeds that we know and love’ is nonsensical for the long future of domestic dogs. 

 

I agree, I love my "purebred" dogs, but.

they were created in the first place

closing the studbooks is locking the gene pool

the people who created these dogs did not have a closed studbook

 

too few remember that

 

so many "breeds" are now locked into faces too short and not enough selection to choose from to stop the slide into unable to survive without surgery to remove their Palette,  and the risk of dying on the table is quoted as 50%? is that what we want for the dog we love?

 

I remember being told there is not enough genetic diversity in many of the bracaphylic breeds to undo the damage

 

dont forget the Cavalier King Charles actual lines are what is now  the King Charles.

 

They were morphed so much breeders decided to recreate the dogs of the Cavalier King, Charles.   there you have what the King Charles once was. far longer face and even the Cavalier is getting shorter and shorter.

Not only in the face but the lifespan thanks to the increasing incidence of mitral valve heart failure.

My first cavaliers lived to 14, 16, 17 and 18........my sister has the last two I bred, One just died aged only 7 from mitral valve that kicked in only six months before her death and medication didn't help......., the other also 7 also has mitral valve now but doing far better on her medication.

 

I remember when I bought our first Cavalier and reading a book 20 years ago about them it said the average life span was 7 . That is appalling for a toy breed.

 

We deliberately went looking for a breeder with old dogs, ten years or more and finally found one Pribar Kennels.........mum was 6. Grandmum was 10, Great grand mum was 13. 

 

My sister and I were so lucky with our choice, they and their puppies by Zambuna Cav King Jack , born in 1994 all lived to became teenagers,  Jack lived to 16.

 Pribar Champagne to 17 , Pribar Tequila to 17, Muffie to 14 and Tia Maria to 18 as did their daughters for me and my sister.

 

Sady as we had to use other line males the lifespans reduced every generation until I could not take it any more and ceased breeding them altogether when the last litters turned up a puppy with syringeamyelia.

That was the last straw. After I learned a friends dogs who were from MRI passed parents had still produced an affected pup. one parent had three generations of MRI clear behind, the other 2 generations. 

In case you do not know it, its not just found in cavaliers, other breeds can be affected as can people, there is still a lot to learn about this.

 

love Cavaliers but if only we could be eliminating those two problems

 

My brother is facing heartbreak and his French bulldog is only 4 and might not survive this summer or an op to help his breathing, this is not what I think the founders of these breeds would want either.

how to help them eliminate these problems is the question

Edited by asal

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Big D   

I completely agree with the sentiment expressed in the OP.

Sadly, far too many people are ruled by emotion, and simply cannot follow logic. 

 

Rescue is like trying to treat Gastro with a Cork.

The problem needs to be fixed at the TOP, not the bottom.

 

Unfortunately "rescue" also helps perpetuate the "all dogs are lovely" myth, which is the number one reason dogs get abandoned in the first place.
Too many nongs out there, indiscriminately breeding whatever mongrels they can get their hands on,  and flogging the cute puppies to unsuspecting dupes, without a thought to suitability.

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asal   
On 02/01/2020 at 3:23 PM, asal said:

I agree, I love my "purebred" dogs, but.

they were created in the first place

closing the studbooks is locking the gene pool

the people who created these dogs did not have a closed studbook

 

too few remember that

 

so many "breeds" are now locked into faces too short and not enough selection to choose from to stop the slide into unable to survive without surgery to remove their Palette,  and the risk of dying on the table is quoted as 50%? is that what we want for the dog we love?

 

I remember being told there is not enough genetic diversity in many of the bracaphylic breeds to undo the damage

 

dont forget the Cavalier King Charles actual lines are what is now  the King Charles.

 

They were morphed so much breeders decided to recreate the dogs of the Cavalier King, Charles.   there you have what the King Charles once was. far longer face and even the Cavalier is getting shorter and shorter.

Not only in the face but the lifespan thanks to the increasing incidence of mitral valve heart failure.

My first cavaliers lived to 14, 16, 17 and 18........my sister has the last two I bred, One just died aged only 7 from mitral valve that kicked in only six months before her death and medication didn't help......., the other also 7 also has mitral valve now but doing far better on her medication.

 

I remember when I bought our first Cavalier and reading a book 20 years ago about them it said the average life span was 7 . That is appalling for a toy breed.

 

We deliberately went looking for a breeder with old dogs, ten years or more and finally found one Pribar Kennels.........mum was 6. Grandmum was 10, Great grand mum was 13. 

 

My sister and I were so lucky with our choice, they and their puppies by Zambuna Cav King Jack , born in 1994 all lived to became teenagers,  Jack lived to 16.

 Pribar Champagne to 17 , Pribar Tequila to 17, Muffie to 14 and Tia Maria to 18 as did their daughters for me and my sister.

 

Sady as we had to use other line males the lifespans reduced every generation until I could not take it any more and ceased breeding them altogether when the last litters turned up a puppy with syringeamyelia.

That was the last straw. After I learned a friends dogs who were from MRI passed parents had still produced an affected pup. one parent had three generations of MRI clear behind, the other 2 generations. 

In case you do not know it, its not just found in cavaliers, other breeds can be affected as can people, there is still a lot to learn about this.

 

love Cavaliers but if only we could be eliminating those two problems

 

My brother is facing heartbreak and his French bulldog is only 4 and might not survive this summer or an op to help his breathing, (vet said 50% chance of dying during the op) this is not what I think the founders of these breeds would want either.

how to help them eliminate these problems is the question

corrected the last sentence to include the vets assessment of his chances of survival  of the op.

Edited by asal
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On 31/12/2019 at 1:09 PM, juice said:

I agree with the post , I’m sick of people making me feel bad for having purebred dogs . 

“ Don’t shop , adopt” , or Don’t buy , rescue “ . 

I happen to like certain breeds and I certainly wouldn’t get a rescue one as they are all badly bred and dodgy . 

On the other hand I’d like a grey again one day and that I would happily be a rescue . 

Never thought about it from this perspective. We always had expensive purebred cats back when I was growing up (they were just cats to me!) and my first dog that was purchased just for me was a purebred OES that we went and got from a breeder (still remember all the details about it). And we also had quality farm dogs that were carefully selected and paid for. But as an adult all my animals have been rescue and they have all been unwanted and chosen me. So I'm not sure I even have a preference but I recognise the value of both in our lives.

 

I cringe when people bang on about adopt, don't shop, outside of the rescue world. I think well bred, purebred dogs play a very important role in our lives and the world - maintaining healthy specimens of a breed, particularly those breeds serving a purpose. I'd also much rather breed more towards health than show ring beauty but that is me. And of course I'd love to live in a world with more balance - less puppies and dogs overall ending up in pounds, shelters and rescues with no hope in hell of all finding a home. In my mind one major way to do that is reduce the number of poorly bred ANYTHING. Since puppy farmers produce far more of this type of dog they are first on the chopping block for me, followed by dodgy back yard breeders as both are deliberately producing high/higher numbers without any concern for the future health of the puppy or where it ends up. We just don't need any more of that type of 'product'. There will still be plenty of oops and sneaky litters so dog owners wont ever become an elite group.

 

And given my love of shar pei you can clearly see when we have a meet up the difference between a well bred pei and all the others who supposedly had 'pure' parents. Then you have the clearly cross bred ones because pei will breed with anything! It's all there if you look. Not all have significant health issues but you sure reduce the odds significantly with more careful breeding.

 

There is an important place for both but like anything we need to do it in balance so the animals themselves don't ultimately suffer our neglect and wastefulness.

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