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Snook

Update added: Urinary/fecal incontinence

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Snook   
35 minutes ago, Dogsfevr said:

I would look at being his alarm clock for toilet breaks when required .

 

Sometimes that extreme deep sleep can Alonso catch them short ,some of our old seniors would get move along notices especially in winter .

It does help 

Yeah, I'm going to have to try and find a way to get him to pee when I want him to, so that he doesn't build up a full bladder. He's not a fan of peeing in the back yard when I'm there, even though he'll pee in front of me on walks without hesitation. I can deal with cleaning up small leakages regularly but a full bladder's worth is going to get really old, really quickly, as well as potentially being distressing for Justice.

 

I've bought waterproof protectors to cover his bed (he has a washable faux fur cover that goes over the top so it will still be soft and comfy for him), the couch cushions (then covered by towels and the couch cover I use to protect the couch from dog hair), and my mattress, as they won't be cleanable if he ever unleashes a full bladder on any of them. I've also bought some extra cheapo towels for cleaning up just in case. Hopefully none of it will be needed but I figure it's better to be prepared than to have to buy a new couch or mattress, or be using my nice towels for cleaning up pee. 

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tdierikx   
1 hour ago, Snook said:

I agree. I'm really happy so far and feel like the vet and staff really care and are listening to my concerns and what I think is best for Justice's quality of life. I'm also beyond thrilled that Justice looked happy and relaxed when the vet brought him back out to me, despite having just been poked and prodded and having had blood taken. He happily trotted up to her for pats when she came out with the urine test results a bit later and went to follow her back in when we parted ways, instead of following me. Given how easily he gets distressed and frightened, and that he wasn't trying to drag me back to the car at every opportunity, that says an awful lot about how comfortable he is with the vet, especially considering I wasn't in there with him. 

It's lovely when they love the vet so much that thye want to follow them anywhere, isn't it? It shows that the vet and staff have gone the extra mile to make sure he's comfortable with them and the things they are wanting to do to him.

 

The clinic I do work placement at uses fear free techniques... and it's amazing how well they actually work on some of the more fractious types of patient. Also, sometimes pets are more comfortable when the owner is NOT around... we've had freaking out dogs in the consult room that we've taken out the back and they've just literally sat still and allowed us to take blood from their jugular, and the minute they are back with their owner they go all freaky again... *sigh*

 

T.

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I am so glad the visit went well , and that the old man seemed happy :) Here's hoping the valium , and regular toilet breaks help :)

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Snook   

I just had a call from the vet. Most of the results are back but they're still waiting on some that probably won't be in until Friday. So far almost everything is completely normal and looking good, and his kidney readings were excellent. The only one that was abnormal is lipase, which is elevated and may indicate pancreatitis but may not. The pancreatic lipase results will be in the next batch of results on Friday. She said there are two types of pancreatitis, acute and chronic. The chronic tends to present as intermittent pain, feeling a bit off etc, rather than more obvious things like vomiting that you see in acute cases, which could explain the shivering/shaking and moaning. It doesn't explain the urinating though and she thinks that's the start of dementia but of course, there's no actual test for that. The results on Friday will determine whether he's treated for chronic pancreatitis or goes back on to valium, unless something else shows up in the next lot of results. 

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Snook   

We had a pre dinner win tonight. I decided to test out walking down the street with Justice to get him to pee. I haven't attempted walking down the street since before his hearing started deteriorating because he was too scared to get past the end of the driveway. We couldn't get further than about half a dozen houses in each direction today because of dogs in yards that bark as soon as anyone gets near them, and I didn't want to push Justice to try and deal with getting past the fences just yet. If he gets scared before he's built up his confidence, he's likely to revert back to refusing to leave the driveway. 

 

I'm thrilled that he was able to do the short walk and do it happily, and that he pee'd twice in that time. It meant he could have dinner from his Bob-a-Lot, without me stressing that he'd be so focused on getting the food that he'd just start peeing on the carpet like last time. Of course, he immediately went and drank about a litre of water in one go as soon as he finished, so another walk will have to be done in a couple of hours, but hopefully it's enough to keep any significant urinating incidents from happening for now. 

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tdierikx   

Sounds promising that you may have a way to keep Justice more comfortable and with a slightly less full bladder... excellent news really...

 

T.

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Could it be that GP is missing something re pain or neuro, due to being a GP and not a rehab vet or neuro person?


Malcolm had urine incontinence earlier this year when he was very unwell and ended up in hospital with a variety of problems. Neuro team cleared him; they said there may be a degenerative condition in his spine, but didn’t recommend further diagnostics at this stage as it wouldn’t change the approach. They prescribed twice daily gabapentin vs just night.

 

The incontinence went away once he was stabilised... only to return for a bit... then go away again.:confused: After a while we tried to take him off the extra morning gabapentin as he was overly sedated and seemed better, only for the weeing accidents to return! Back on twice daily with a timing shift and it hasn’t returned so far.


So I guess I’m suss that it all comes back to the gaba not being right for a time, and that maybe he needs longer to recover?

 

Is he drinking more than usual? ‘Cause endocrine issues could account for the wees but I’m not sure re poos, and is something Mal was also in hospital for alongside his IBD. Then again drinking more can also be CCD.

 

Edited by Papillon Kisses
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Snook   
7 minutes ago, Papillon Kisses said:

Could it be that GP is missing something re pain or neuro, due to being a GP and not a rehab vet or neuro person?


Malcolm had urine incontinence earlier this year when he was very unwell and ended up in hospital with a variety of problems. Neuro team cleared him; they said there may be a degenerative condition in his spine, but didn’t recommend further diagnostics at this stage as it wouldn’t change the approach. They prescribed twice daily gabapentin vs just night.

 

The incontinence went away once he was stabilised... only to return for a bit... then go away again.:confused: After a while we tried to take him off the extra morning gabapentin as he was overly sedated and seemed better, only for the weeing accidents to return! Back on twice daily with a timing shift and it hasn’t returned so far.


So I guess I’m suss that it all comes back to the gaba not being right for a time, and that maybe he needs longer to recover?

 

Is he drinking more than usual? ‘Cause endocrine issues could account for the wees but I’m not sure re poos, and is something Mal was also in hospital for alongside his IBD. Then again drinking more can also be CCD.

 

It's always possible the vet is missing something. She seem really thorough but as you said, she's not a specialist. 

 

Perhaps re the Gabapentin, although I've actually been wondering if it was coincidence that the shaking incidents started with the change in gabapentin, then stopped after going from the tablets to the capsules, as they then started up again less than a week later. He's had some urinary issues prior to the Gabapentin tablets changing, when he stood up on his bed and then started peeing and was shocked to be yelled at and immediately stopped, plus leaking a bit of urine in my bed. 

 

He's not drinking any more than usual and averages 2 litres a day but his drinking pattern has changed and he tends to not drink for hours then drink approx 1 litre or so all at once (his bowl holds 2 litres which makes it a bit easier to work out how much he's having.) 

 

What is CCD? I'm so sorry that your dear Malcolm has had such a struggle. I hope he's doing much better now. 

 

Dementia and chronic pancreatitis would explain everything that's been happening, if it comes back tomorrow positive for the pancreatitis. If it's not pancreatitis, I'm a little hesitant to just write the shaking off as anxiety, even though it could well be, just because he's looked like he can't get comfortable a few times and no matter how severely anxious he's been in the past, he's never really moaned when he's having a panic attack, which seems more like pain to me. I'm not sure what to do next, beyond adding the valium, if it comes back that his pancreas is fine. Maybe try it and see if it is in fact anxiety and if he's still having issues, talk to the vet about what else could be investigated? 

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20 minutes ago, persephone said:

Canine Cognitive Dysfunction (CCD)  (dementia ) , @Snook


Yes, dementia.

 

To me it sounds like pain is a factor. Malcolm also shakes and moans when in pain. If it helps, he also hides, loses his appetite, and is more anxious.

 

With dementia they can forget to drink, or forget that they have. I assume you’ve seen Eileen Anderson’s site but just in case: https://dogdementia.com/

 

Ugh. It’s so hard when they’re older, have multiple problems, and then throw anxiety in the mix.

 

Malcolm is doing world’s better, though still some residual movement problems and I’m keeping a diary in case a pattern appears with his food refusal, incontinence, so on. He has his funny addisonian-like condition when he can’t balance his electrolytes, but a recent ACTH test was suspicious of cushings (which on the cortisol side is the exact opposite to addisons). Now he’s having ongoing eye problems and needs to see an ophthalmologist again. But anyway, back to the boofhead of all of our hearts! :heart: 

Edited by Papillon Kisses
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tdierikx   

The shaking is more like trembling, yes? Combined with moaning and inability to settle, I'd definitely be looking at pain as being a factor there.

 

Fingers crossed that the bloods come back as chronic pancreatitis and that it can then be managed once and for all... better than the alternatives in the long run, even though it's not a wonderful diagnosis to have.

 

T.

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Snook   
1 hour ago, Papillon Kisses said:


Yes, dementia.

 

To me it sounds like pain is a factor. Malcolm also shakes and moans when in pain. If it helps, he also hides, loses his appetite, and is more anxious.

 

With dementia they can forget to drink, or forget that they have. I assume you’ve seen Eileen Anderson’s site but just in case: https://dogdementia.com/

 

Ugh. It’s so hard when they’re older, have multiple problems, and then throw anxiety in the mix.

 

Malcolm is doing world’s better, though still some residual movement problems and I’m keeping a diary in case a pattern appears with his food refusal, incontinence, so on. He has his funny addisonian-like condition when he can’t balance his electrolytes, but a recent ACTH test was suspicious of cushings (which on the cortisol side is the exact opposite to addisons). Now he’s having ongoing eye problems and needs to see an ophthalmologist again. But anyway, back to the boofhead of all of our hearts! :heart: 

Thanks for clarifying @persephone

 

When Justice has been unwell in the past, he's always gotten more sooky and whiny, like he is now. The only time he's preferred to be alone and lost his appetite was when he was at death's door and in excruciating pain with the bone shards being lodged in his intestines back in January. 

 

No, I hadn't seen that site but I'll check it out. Thanks for sharing. I wonder with the drinking whether forgetting to drink is why his drinking pattern has changed from drinking regularly throughout the day, to not drinking for sometimes several hours, then gulping a huge amount down when he does eat, often straight after eating dinner. 

 

The anxiety certainly complicates things on a few levels. 

 

I'm glad to hear that Malcolm is doing a lot better than he was and sorry he still has some struggles to contend with. It must be very stressful for both of you. 

 

7 minutes ago, tdierikx said:

The shaking is more like trembling, yes? Combined with moaning and inability to settle, I'd definitely be looking at pain as being a factor there.

 

Fingers crossed that the bloods come back as chronic pancreatitis and that it can then be managed once and for all... better than the alternatives in the long run, even though it's not a wonderful diagnosis to have.

 

T.

The shaking looks like severe shivering in short bouts, so he'll shiver really badly for a few seconds, stop for a few seconds, shiver again for a few seconds, and can do this continuously for a good couple of hours. This is exactly how he shakes/shivers when he's having a bad bout of anxiety. It only the moaning and having trouble getting comfortable that made me think it was more than anxiety and more likely to be pain related.. Or pain setting off an anxiety response. 

 

I felt awful thinking it but I'm really hoping that it does come back positive for pancreatitis, as that would be a definitive answer and it can be managed. Anxiety is an arse at the best of times, let alone adding dementia to the mix, and it would be heartbreaking if it's getting out of control again, after him finally getting a good amount of relief from it with deteriorating hearing. I'm not looking forward to having to try and investigate further if there's a pain issue that no one can identify, as it could be anything and I don't even know where to start with that. 

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Poor Justice ... it’s a real worry when they get older...I hope tomorrow brings good news :) 

I have noticed that Sasha is drinking a lot.. probably 1-1.5 litres a day... and she has pooped inside, sometimes she will just walk and all of a sudden go.

She is still her happy self  and we go for a short walk around the block every day because she still loves it.

My Vet is wonderful , he is so good with her but she has forgotten and doesn’t get excited like she used to :(
 

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Dogsfevr   

But at the end of the day you also just need to accept there old & just like humans old age things happen & not everything needs to be investigated or have a reason its just what it is .

For some old dogs not getting enough meals can send them hypo but too much food gives them the runs .
Over the years we have dealth with that ,our seniors get there goats milk & baby farex for bedtime supper & has been a godsend for many of our seniors needing a light nighttime filler
If not drinking enough regularly through the day maybe add some warm milk or make the meals more juicy
If overdrinking a set times he will feel bloated & that in itself is uncomfortable especially if inclined to hang on for a wee & if you add a meal as the same time he could end up feeling "off" for that period & it builds up .

Our breed is highly predisposed to pancreatitis & generally speaking when they have a mild bout they spew bile & also have the runs & a really gurgly tummy & can't get comfy & very hunched/roached & off .



 

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Snook   
48 minutes ago, ♦ Marg ♦ said:

Poor Justice ... it’s a real worry when they get older...I hope tomorrow brings good news :) 

I have noticed that Sasha is drinking a lot.. probably 1-1.5 litres a day... and she has pooped inside, sometimes she will just walk and all of a sudden go.

She is still her happy self  and we go for a short walk around the block every day because she still loves it.

My Vet is wonderful , he is so good with her but she has forgotten and doesn’t get excited like she used to :(
 

That's what's happened when Justice has pooped inside. He's just standing there eating his breakfast and a little nugget pops out and he shows no acknowledgement of it, or it's happened while he's tucked up in my bed. It's sad that Sasha doesn't get as excited as she used to but lovely that she's generally happy and still enjoys her walks. 

 

 

28 minutes ago, Dogsfevr said:

But at the end of the day you also just need to accept there old & just like humans old age things happen & not everything needs to be investigated or have a reason its just what it is .

For some old dogs not getting enough meals can send them hypo but too much food gives them the runs .
Over the years we have dealth with that ,our seniors get there goats milk & baby farex for bedtime supper & has been a godsend for many of our seniors needing a light nighttime filler
If not drinking enough regularly through the day maybe add some warm milk or make the meals more juicy
If overdrinking a set times he will feel bloated & that in itself is uncomfortable especially if inclined to hang on for a wee & if you add a meal as the same time he could end up feeling "off" for that period & it builds up .

Our breed is highly predisposed to pancreatitis & generally speaking when they have a mild bout they spew bile & also have the runs & a really gurgly tummy & can't get comfy & very hunched/roached & off .



 

Oh, for sure. I had just been putting the indoor poops and minor wees down to old age over the last 12 to 18 months. Emptying two full bladders inside in less than a week and having repeated bouts of shivering/shaking and moaning and sometimes seeking uncomfortable at the same time, seemed like more than just old age to me and I think it would have been neglectful to not take him to the vet to be checked out. 

 

Justice's poos are well formed and he's drinking as much as he always has, just not spacing out his consumption terribly well over the course of a day. Some of his off times have been after dinner and a big drink but some have been before dinner and some have been in the middle of the day and nowhere near when he's eaten or had a big drink. 

 

I'm very interested to know if it does come back as pancreatitis, especially considering the alternate theory at the moment is anxiety being increased by dementia. Although it may be typical for dogs of a similar breed to have more severe symptoms, it doesn't necessarily mean that Justice will be the same. We did another walk this afternoon and went a bit further and down a short side street, as I realised the dog that used to live in the front yard of the house on the corner is gone. It's really hard for me to understand Justice's level of confidence and relaxation on a walk that used to terrify him so much that he flat out wouldn't do it, if the shaking/shivering/moaning etc are intermittent bouts of significantly increased anxiety/panic attacks. It just doesn't make sense to me. 

Edited by Snook
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tdierikx   

Waves of trembling, pacing, moaning... usually classic signs of a pain somewhere.

 

I know that it's not the best hope that he has chronic pancreatitis, but it will be a diagnosis, and then can be treated/managed...

 

T.

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There is pain somewhere,whether from an illness, something neurological, or something  physiological  needs to be nutted out. 

You are a really observant owner...do the pain episodes seem connected /close to  anything in his day ? After eating,drinking,during sleep,before a big pee,in a particular sleeping spot.....a certain time of the day?

 

 

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Rebanne   

re the drinking huge amounts in one go. Could you use a slow feeder bowl for the water or could you only put a smaller amount in it and then refill when it's gone but with a pause of a few seconds before refilling?

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Snook   
1 hour ago, persephone said:

There is pain somewhere,whether from an illness, something neurological, or something  physiological  needs to be nutted out. 

You are a really observant owner...do the pain episodes seem connected /close to  anything in his day ? After eating,drinking,during sleep,before a big pee,in a particular sleeping spot.....a certain time of the day?

 

 

I haven't been able to spot any patterns to it. It seems quite random and I was particularly concerned the first night it happened, as it was when his doggo bestie was here. He absolutely loves playing with her and he played with her when she first arrived but once the shaking/moaning etc started he didn't want her near him. Yesterday he didn't have any episodes at all. 

 

36 minutes ago, Rebanne said:

re the drinking huge amounts in one go. Could you use a slow feeder bowl for the water or could you only put a smaller amount in it and then refill when it's gone but with a pause of a few seconds before refilling?

I could definitely try both of those things. I've been trying to call him away from his water bowl when he's doing it, to force a break from the drinking. He goes straight back to it afterwards but a method like you've suggested, that slows him down a lot more consistently, would be far better. 

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I was thinking with water ...maybe OFFER him water  several times a day ...after waking , after a walk , say , at 3 hrly intervals or something ? see if that helps? perhaps offering it will jog his memory? 

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