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and it is a fact, to breed can be a risk, that's why so many dont stay breeders for long..

 

have to be very alert to your girl and head for the vet fast if anything seems amiss, even slightly.\ n thinking maybe my imagination?

 

Better to be a too cautious than get there too late.

 

 

 

 

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The thing I find most crazy about the anti-purebreed mentality in the wider community is that even owners of heinz 57 dogs want to know what breeds are in their dog. They don't follow that thought to

It has become much harder to legally breed dogs on a small scale as a dedicated hobbiest over the past 20 odd years. Bigger denser cities, tighter planning controls. Perth’s two dog limit has been in

I don't have a problem with providing pups for pet homes, not at all. But most breeders only have a couple of dogs to breed from. In your example above @tdierikx what happens to those 16 bitches after

I breed every few years. Working Springers not show...

  • Everyone wants one but they aren’t for everyone.
  • I couldn’t live with anything else but I am an experienced committed trainer
  • There is WAY more to them than smaller and less coat
  • I work full time in a demanding role
  • I haven’t taken a proper holiday in 5 years
  • Last litter cost me $6K before I had a litter on the ground
  • My Ginny could have died and broken my heart - unexpected c-section and then black mastitis. Both “bad luck” according to my specialist reproductive vet
  • I do dog sports, so a litter means my girl is out for quite some time
  • I support my puppy buyers forever
  • I ALWAYS am available for advice
  • Did I mention how EXPENSIVE it is? I’ve bred 2 litters from Em, had her spayed and just spent > $15K after she was diagnosed with tiny mammary tumors. 

My pups go to family homes. But not just any family home. Just because people WANT one of my pups doesn’t mean they get one. The last thing I want is pups I’ve bred bouncing between homes/rescue like this breed does in the UK. 

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Hi all, I have not been on this forum for eons and no longer have any idea what my password was! So here I am as ShelbyBT aka RosieFT if anyone remembers me and my now passed, Fox Terrier :-) .
Anyway, I had to join as I read this thread and it is something I have been pondering myself of late. My father has had to says goodbye to his Bichon frise and is looking for a new companion and so I have been looking for an older dog for him to rehome. It has really hit home about the scarcity of purebred dogs! I have looked down the rescue route and see that most of those dogs are medium to large bull breed/mastiff/kelpie crosses. Or if they are smaller dogs, they have some behaviour problems that wouldn't work for him. Purebred dogs are few and far between, and on gumtree (which I only looked at out of curiousity) I see oodle crosses selling for $4000 + . I would assume that these oodle crosses are using un health tested dogs of any temperament to create cute bundles of $$$ joy. On gumtree there are 100's of wanted ads from people looking for purebred dogs who obviously do not know about Dogzonline lists or of centralised state Dog centres that they can enquire at. 
My father told me today that he met a new person at the golf club he plays at, and he found out that this man's job was selling puppies. He told my father he sells poodle crosses of any description for $5000 and upwards to $6500. His greatest problem is sourcing enough of them to sell. :-( 
My current dog is a border terrier that I was lucky enough to get from a breeder in a different state to where I am and so had to take a bit of a gamble in buying her. On the border terrier page I am on, there are always people asking about where they can get one from only to be told it would be a 12month wait and that waiting lists are already very long. A good friend of mine paid more for her 'cavoodle' puppy than I did for my purebred BT and she at least went to a breeder who she could visit and meet the parents of the puppy and get proof of health checks. This breeder has waiting lists a mile long.
I think as a responsible dog owner i wouldn't dream of breeding my own dog, but perhaps when people used to do that more often, there were more puppies to go around from dogs that were raised in a family home and who's puppies were then exposed to everyday life before they were moved onto their new homes? I read an article not long ago about how perhaps the best dogs were being missed as breeding opportunities as they were in pet homes, and that pet owners spend so much time with their dogs that they know if they have a great dog that is worth breeding from. Unfortunately, I see people who think their pet dog would be a great mother and I can see it is timid or not put together quite right, so I am not sure that is the way to go either! Before I had my girl sterilised, I had 3 offers of homes from people trying to convince me to have a litter from her, desperate for a BT dog. 
I don't know what the solution is, but after trying to find a dog for my father, I can see why people do spend the $$ and buy a mixed oodle breed from gumtree. 

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For the 1st time in 50 years I find myself dogless.  

Oh, I have Goose. His purpose is different though to what I need. He is much too small and hasn't got the traits I need for 'the big jobs'. 

Live stock protection, home and hiking companion, childrens playmate/guardian, and personal assistant!

Hard enough to find such dogs in normal times, especially when they must be capable of 'responsible' personal protection as well. 

By that I mean safe even in a crowded party. Will act. Confidently. But in clear language, with least force and wait for instruction.

Almost a therapy dog.  I  don't  stress over what I might miss while my  focus is on other things, or I sleep. Active athleticism and health are  essential for my purpose.

 

Its what I grew up with. Its possible.

 

Its what comes of centuries of people breeding for their own purposes and situations. For their own needs, in their own back yards.

 

But we have got ourselves side tracked on to this idea of a design for dogs as shortcut to function. Almost like people think " If form follows function, then we perfect the form we believe works best, ability to perform must follow. But it can't. Its an evolutionary rule that form follows function. Purpose..  Only now the function is to conform to a design. And any purpose is subject to that. The so called "designer dogs" are a direct result of that influence.

 

If a breeders purpose is to uphold a standard, thats as good a purpose as any while there is a place for it.

BUT.  If every person who breeds dogs is expected to incorporate that same purpose,  Before they are recognised as legitimate, then purpose is lost altogether.

Because Conditions come before response. The environment of dog breeders retracts to those design conditions.

 

Not what I need in my backyard.

I grew up with a dog that lived my ideal. It took me 15 years to find it again, because I didn't appreciate how rare it was becoming.  This is the response-ability to environment that gave us breeds -recognisable to the purpose  served in their specific environments.  It took another 7 years of more focused search to find others that met MY standards.

 

If pedigree dogs can meet them, I'd love to know where. 

If they can't, and I find what I need else where, No one has the right to even imply Its some how less than responsible to try and make that available to my children and grand children who have also grown up with these high expectations.

 

Its not irresponsible to understand your own needs and the traits/qualities  needed to achieve them.

Its irresponsible to insist that your purpose/standards in breeding dogs must be universal.

Its irresponsible to say the conditions that gave you a pedigree dog over- ride the conditions that give me, what works for me.

Because with out the experience, I would not have these expectations of a dog or an understanding of what makes it work.

The expectations of your environment are not the ones I live with.

 

So it is irresponsible to discredit my experience or my dogs and irresponsible to limit experience.

It would be more responsible to ensure people understand their own purpose in getting a dog,  Whats required and how to make it work as best you can.

 

It creates experience that is more valued, and that creates higher expectations.  Possibilities and direction come from expectation.. Where you can go. 

 

The 'form' of breeders also follows function. Purpose.

 

Breed Standards can work, very well. They are environmental conditions, set up to benefit breeders whos purpose is to a continuous  design. They can't be THE purpose for dogs, and still have a dog that evolves as part of a whole human community. Its no longer a 'domestic dog'. 

Its environmental demands lie in another, separate direction. A fixed condition! Direction can only be into "itself".

Thats not a direction, its a position.

 

Pedigrees can only work if they are seen as  ' purpose' in a range of purpose. Not the only legitimate direction a breeder can take for validation.

Value is for the environment to judge and decide, not for the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by moosmum
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17 minutes ago, moosmum said:

For the 1st time in 50 years I find myself dogless.  

Oh, I have Goose. His purpose is different though to what I need. He is much too small and hasn't got the traits I need for 'the big jobs'. 

Live stock protection, home and hiking companion, childrens playmate/guardian, and personal assistant!

Hard enough to find such dogs in normal times, especially when they must be capable of 'responsible' personal protection as well. 

By that I mean safe even in a crowded party. Will act. Confidently. But in clear language, with least force and wait for instruction.

Almost a therapy dog.  I  don't  stress over what I might miss while my  focus is on other things, or I sleep. Active athleticism and health are  essential for my purpose.

 

Its what I grew up with. Its possible.

 

Its what comes of centuries of people breeding for their own purposes and situations. For their own needs, in their own back yards.

 

But we have got ourselves side tracked on to this idea of a design for dogs as shortcut to function. Almost like people think " If form follows function, then we perfect the form we believe works best, ability to perform must follow. But it can't. Its an evolutionary rule that form follows function.  Only now the function is to conform to a design. And any purpose is subject to that. The so called "designer dogs" are a direct result of that influence.

 

If a breeders purpose is to uphold a standard, thats as good a purpose as any while there is a place for it.

BUT.  If every person who breeds dogs is expected to incorporate that same purpose,  Before they are recognised as legitimate, then purpose is lost altogether.

Because Conditions come before response. The environment of dog breeders retracts to those design conditions.

 

Not what I need in my backyard.

I grew up with a dog that lived my ideal. It took me 15 years to find it again, because I didn't appreciate how rare it was becoming.  This response-ability to environment that gave us breeds -recognisable to the purpose  served in their specific environments.  It took another 7 years of more focused search to find others that met MY standards.

 

If pedigree dogs can meet them, I'd love to know where. 

If they can't, and I find what I need else where, No one has the right to even imply Its some how less than responsible to try and make that available to my children and grand children who have also grown up with these high expectations.

 

Its not irresponsible to understand your own needs and the traits/qualities  needed to achieve them.

Its irresponsible to insist that your purpose/standards in breeding dogs must be universal.

Its irresponsible to say the conditions that gave you a pedigree dog over- ride the conditions that give me, what works for me.

Because with out the experience, I would not have these expectations of a dog or an understanding of what makes it work.

The expectations of your environment are not the ones I live with.

 

So it is irresponsible to discredit my experience or my dogs and irresponsible to limit experience.

It would be more responsible to ensure people understand their own purpose in getting a dog,  Whats required and how to make it work as best you can.

 

It creates experience that is more valued, and that creates higher expectations.  Possibilities and direction come from expectation.. Where you can go, 

 

The 'form' of breeders also follows function. Purpose.

 

Breed Standards can work, very well. They are environmental conditions, set up to benefit breeders whos purpose is to a continuous  design. They can't be THE purpose for dogs, and still have a dog that evolves as part of a whole human community. Its no longer a 'domestic dog'. 

Its environmental demands lie in another, separate direction. A fixed condition! Direction can only be into "itself".

 

Pedigrees can only work if they are seen ' purpose' in a range of purpose. Not the only legitimate direction a breeder can take for validation.

Value is for the environment to judge and decide, not for the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could not have said it better. Thank you ! 

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As for 'elitism',  Its been the main driver for the changes harming Breeders today.

The elitism people refer to is the refusal to recognise a breeder who does not conform to your ideals.

Its presented by those people who see fault in my position, with out any effort to understand what  my goals, methods, precautions and purpose are.  Or to consider any real value in the results given by such a breeder.

The elitist says  "Thats not a breeder"  so gives it an "other" name.

 

Elitism is the dismissal or discrediting of a breeder based on their position. Where they stand-ie: In a pedigree environment, or else where.

Surely you must see that discrediting BYBers or Commercial breeders or any other group you want to distance,  because some fail miserably, can only set up your own downfall.Because you are saying a group is judged by its failures. Not an individual. That removes individual responsibility. And there will be failures in your group. You will be judged on those as a group. As is promoted.

 

Any wonder then when people think research to buy a dog means look into the  'breed' standard and know the breeders affiliation?

Why people fail to research the breeder?  Or the dog? If you say affiliation decides value, thats all we should need to understand.

The breed as a collective, and the collective affiliate of the breeder.

 

 

 

 

Edited by moosmum
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On 20/07/2020 at 9:35 AM, Scratch said:

Ive just looked at the Dogzonline breed pages and counted just 125 litters listed across all breeds. Let’s overestimate 10 pups in each litter, for a total of 1250 ANKC pedigree pups. Let’s say only half the ANKC breeders are listed on Dogz, and those not listed also have 1250 pups available. I reckon that would be a gross over estimation of 2500 ANKC pups available nation wide today. 
Is it really any wonder why people buy non papered purebreed dogs and mixed breed dogs from where ever they are available? 
Quite literally, for dogs sake, ANKC breeders need to breed for the pet market. When did it become so unfashionable to breed pedigree dogs for the pet market?

It is unfashionable to buy from a breeder! People are made to feel guilty if they don’t rescue a dog they know nothing about that was quite likely bred by a puppy farmer.

if someone gets a dog from a pound or shelter the first thing they tell you about it when you meet them is “he’s a rescue!” As if that defines the dog and you have to be told of their good deed.   For the rest of the dogs life, even if it gets to 20, it will always be first and foremost “A RESCUE”. And those of us who have a love for a particular breed are the selfish bad guys.

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47 minutes ago, Kirislin said:

It is unfashionable to buy from a breeder! People are made to feel guilty if they don’t rescue a dog they know nothing about that was quite likely bred by a puppy farmer.

if someone gets a dog from a pound or shelter the first thing they tell you about it when you meet them is “he’s a rescue!” As if that defines the dog and you have to be told of their good deed.   For the rest of the dogs life, even if it gets to 20, it will always be first and foremost “A RESCUE”. And those of us who have a love for a particular breed are the selfish bad guys.

Yes. This is all too true! 
I have actually even heard people say they ‘rescued a puppy‘ when they actually Purchased a well bred pup from an ANKC breeder! 
yes, to some folks, EVERY breeder is a horrid human !

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3 hours ago, Kirislin said:

It is unfashionable to buy from a breeder! People are made to feel guilty if they don’t rescue a dog they know nothing about that was quite likely bred by a puppy farmer.

if someone gets a dog from a pound or shelter the first thing they tell you about it when you meet them is “he’s a rescue!” As if that defines the dog and you have to be told of their good deed.   For the rest of the dogs life, even if it gets to 20, it will always be first and foremost “A RESCUE”. And those of us who have a love for a particular breed are the selfish bad guys.

If it's unfashionable with everyone there wouldn't be waiting lists and high prices for well bred dogs. 

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On 7/21/2020 at 11:45 AM, Rebanne said:

People don't want Poodles, they want oodles. They want the mutts they have been brain washed into believing are way superior than any well bred pure bred. 

 

 

This is correct, i'm always trying to educate people who cannot understand that oodles aren't purebred and also explain what the "papers" for purebreds actually are .... I alert them to puppy farming and suggest Poodles, Bichons etc from registered breeders.  Noone is EVER dissuaded or interested, they don't give a crap about puppy farms and how unethical it all is.  I've been so abused but I haven't given up yet.

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23 minutes ago, Her Majesty Dogmad said:

This is correct, i'm always trying to educate people who cannot understand that oodles aren't purebred and also explain what the "papers" for purebreds actually are .... I alert them to puppy farming and suggest Poodles, Bichons etc from registered breeders.  Noone is EVER dissuaded or interested, they don't give a crap about puppy farms and how unethical it all is.  I've been so abused but I haven't given up yet.

I spent years trying to do the same thing, I realised I was wasting my time, to be honest many of the ‘oodles’ I groomed had great temperaments and were great family dogs and in all honesty we’re perfectly suitable for what their owners wanted.

 

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57 minutes ago, Her Majesty Dogmad said:

This is correct, i'm always trying to educate people who cannot understand that oodles aren't purebred and also explain what the "papers" for purebreds actually are .... I alert them to puppy farming and suggest Poodles, Bichons etc from registered breeders.  Noone is EVER dissuaded or interested, they don't give a crap about puppy farms and how unethical it all is.  I've been so abused but I haven't given up yet.

They also hear stories of 'how unethical ' it all is re; pedigrees too. If thats what you put out there, thats what will be returned.

They will see what is making owners happy, and emulate that. If they don't see pure breeds doing it they have no reason to look. But they have to be there, seen. Representing pet/domestic  dogs as well as anything else. 

 

 

They give crap about how hard it is to get a dog.  So how 'unethical' all breeders are,  and puppy farms are at least among the most regulated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

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The thing I find most crazy about the anti-purebreed mentality in the wider community is that even owners of heinz 57 dogs want to know what breeds are in their dog. They don't follow that thought to it's logical conclusion: if they want to know what's in it it's because they want an idea of what traits make the dog what it is. Those traits that were refined by selective breeding. It's a cognitive dissonance that plays out continually, the whole point of purpose breeding is to know the traits and know what to expect. At some level people who are anti-breeder/anti-purebred know this but don't follow that once lines are diluted that degree of predictability becomes smaller and smaller. 

I know people with a husky x bc, at an intellectual level one could assume that most educated people know genetics is complex, it's not like mixing drinks. But they still expect something to look like a husky and behave like a BC, and get all kinds of frustrated when it shows husky behaviours. It's lazy thinking played out in real time. 

 

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Crazy isnt it.

 

I know when my friends began spouting we have to eliminate puppy farmers and backyard breeders from the ankc ranks.  I could not get a single one of them to realise they themselves had backyards and fitted the very description of the people to be eliminated.

 

When they began spouting we have to get rid of the unethical, irresponsible people, that they too could be targeted.

 

that was in the 1985 or 6 I think,  the time frame was that long ago, even then I saw it as whiteanting the members from within.

 

sadly my fears were very on target weren't they.

 

Perhaps because of my grandfather who was descended from people who fled the Spanish inquisitions where bother betrayed brother, made me see this as the beginning of another form of inquisition

 

 

people sure dont learn from the horrors of history past do they?

 

As well they whiteanted pet buyers trust in ankc breeders,  they are constantly being told, go check the parents, the home, to ensure the breeder is not a puppy farmer,  constant reminder to distrust and inspect and report the shonks.... 

 They were too dumb to realise that the result is they had just taught the general public to distrust all ankc members as potential shonks.

 

 

I did wonder where on earth this sudden hate talk come from.

 

It was only a few years ago I learned the year PETA began and yep same slogans..........1982

 

the idiots had picked up on the slogans with no idea where they came from or the agenda attached......... embraced an agenda and self destruction, that  PETA must be so happy with

 

 

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Hope I'm not sounding like a broken record (do people still know that sound?) but I think testing has become part of the snobbery.  One NZ FB group I frequent is heavy on breeders advising people not to buy from people who don't do ALL of the tests, including several genetic tests and annual eye exams.  In the breed of interest, the incidence of serious non-PRA eye problems (PRA can be screened with genetic tests) is <1%, most occurring late in life.  There are only half a dozen veterinary opthamologists in NZ, so eye exams require long distance driving for people who don't live near a big urban center.  As for genetic testing, I think it's great if the test screens for a serious and/or common problems.  I can also see X-rays for hips and elbows. And I can see screening much used stud dogs for diseases that have arisen by chance mutation and seem to be spreading in the breed.  What I can't see is requiring every genetic test the laboratories come up with, and eye exams that rarely catch anything other than the occasional floater of someone who has a bitch from lines with good health history and only intends to have one or two litters.  Where I live, these sorts of pressures mean that working dogs drop out or the pedigree system and often go totally without testing. 

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