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Is There Any Advantage in Having A Pedigree Listed On The Limited Register


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You're asking the wrong person. And it's show potential. Many things happen between selling a show potential 8 week old pup and it, possibly, becoming a show champion. For both dog and person things can change.

Ozzie you were told the stud dog owner put conditions on the use of their dog, there's one reason, but you rejected that.

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11 hours ago, OzzieLioness said:

Do you happen to know why show quality dogs are put onto a LR - if it costs the same to produce the pups no matter what? I'm not looking for an argument, truly not. I just do not understand the reasoning and it blows my mind not to know :noidea:

 

Quite simply it's because breeders aren't using the LR the way in which it was intended.  All puppies should be placed on MR unless they have serious disqualifying faults -- this was the reason behind introducing LR.  If breeders don't want their MR puppies used for ANKC breeding, they are supposed to utilise the "not for breeding" section on the back of the pedigree, which prevents MR dogs' offspring being ANKC registered should someone breed with it (just the same as LR).

 

For some reason though, many breeders started thinking that the LR stops dogs being bred and gives them control over what happens with the dog even after sale.  I don't know whether it's a "control thing" or just complete idiocy on their parts for not understanding that a birth certificate (essentially what a pedigree is) is not a contract and therefore once the pup is sold, they have absolutely NO leg to stand on when it comes to what the new owners choose to do.

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59 minutes ago, Princess Fru Fru said:

 

Quite simply it's because breeders aren't using the LR the way in which it was intended.  All puppies should be placed on MR unless they have serious disqualifying faults -- this was the reason behind introducing LR.  If breeders don't want their MR puppies used for ANKC breeding, they are supposed to utilise the "not for breeding" section on the back of the pedigree, which prevents MR dogs' offspring being ANKC registered should someone breed with it (just the same as LR).

 

For some reason though, many breeders started thinking that the LR stops dogs being bred and gives them control over what happens with the dog even after sale.  I don't know whether it's a "control thing" or just complete idiocy on their parts for not understanding that a birth certificate (essentially what a pedigree is) is not a contract and therefore once the pup is sold, they have absolutely NO leg to stand on when it comes to what the new owners choose to do.

All my dogs have been on LR & it hasn't bothered me a bit even though I know that they are possibly MR quality, or as good a quality as the parents who are MR.  My dogs are bred for performance not the show ring & I can do whatever I like with them except show or breed.  And I am happy that my LR dogs come with a contract, which probably doesn't mean much to an unethical person, but it shows me that the breeders care about where their pups are being homed.  You say that breeders don't have a leg to stand on and that new owners can do as they please, BUT  if I were to breed with my dogs, then word would get around & I would have buckley's chance of ever getting another dog from that breeder or their associates & I value the association I have with those breeders more than making a quick quid by mating my dog with some other dog, without the wealth of knowledge these breeders have when it comes to putting A dog with B dog.  If all Border Collie breeders were to put even just half of their pups on MR, then we would soon be flush with all these cute "Darrell Lee" puppies being bred for $X amount of dollars & going to homes where people havn't a clue about living with a border collie & they would end up confused, abused & in rescue. I am sure if I were to buy a LR registered dog from a breeder who knows me, & down the line I wanted to show then I am sure they would consider whether or not to change the registration. 

At a guess, I would say that very little people want a MR dog so they can do conformations shows.  The majority of people wanting a MR registered dog would be because they can see the $'s in breeding a few litters & to hell with the health test. 

Just my two bob's worth

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I have 2 dogs lounging around at my feet, who were originally going to be placed on Limited Register, as that is the practice of the careful breeders I chose, for pups who I wanted as sports performance dogs .. agility. obedience etc.  I chose breeders whose lines and whose reasons for breeding and care with health testing had a good chance of producing the sort of dogs I wanted.  At that time I had no  time or particular interest in showing, so I didn't need a pup registerd on the Main Register, and I had and still have zero intent of ever breeding.   As it happened, my male actualy ended up coming on the Main Register .. he had been a possible show pick .. beaten out by his brother .. and my breeder knew I had a mentor here who would show him for me if I wanted.   He is now a Tri Ch and Neuter Ch. with titles in a nuber of other disciplines.   My girl was also a possible show prospect, as a wee pup, beaten out by her sister.  As she grew, she looked quite promising, and friends were happy to show her for me, so I asked her breegder if she would be willing to upgrade her to Main for me .. which she did.  The girl did get her Ch, but I then decided to desex her as she's more of a performance dog.

 

One value of Limited Register is that as with MWR dogs, the dog's parentage will still appear in things like sports catalogues, so that people can see a dog they like and then find out the parents, and chase up similar lines.    Can't be doneso easily if the dog is just on Associate Register, and the lines are less likely to be fully documented and health test available.

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7 hours ago, Rebanne said:

You're asking the wrong person. And it's show potential. Many things happen between selling a show potential 8 week old pup and it, possibly, becoming a show champion. For both dog and person things can change.

Ozzie you were told the stud dog owner put conditions on the use of their dog, there's one reason, but you rejected that.

I dont think, in paying a huge premium that asking "why" a condition is in place in the first place and expecting an answer is in any way unreasonable. But no worries. Thank you for taking the time to write that. 

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On 21/03/2022 at 8:21 PM, Podgus said:

I’m grumpy as heck that I can’t do earth dogs or lure coursing with my new dog because he’d be on associate register but entire. The ANKC lose out on a lot from this. 

 

 

keep telling them and I bet they will eventually change, it is not as if rules and stuff aren't amended regularly. hang in there and tell them so

 

the reason RNSWCC changed its name to DOGS NSW was to attract more pet owners to make up for the falling number of member breeders and thus income.

 The ANKC has now rebadged itself as DOGS AUSTRALIA for the same reason to be more relevant to pet owners  to join and come to the competition days 

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On 22/03/2022 at 10:41 PM, OzzieLioness said:

 

Do you happen to know why show quality dogs are put onto a LR - if it costs the same to produce the pups no matter what? I'm not looking for an argument, truly not. I just do not understand the reasoning and it blows my mind not to know :noidea:

 

from what ive seen for people I know, they sell every puppy on limit registers regardless of quality. the only pups that go on main are the ones the keep.   many members believe to be ethical you never sell on main register. you only main the pups you keep for yourself.   The mindset is pretty intrenched in many.  The other reason I have been given is to prevent their puppies ending up at puppy farms although I fail to understand how a puppy farmer would care that it was only on limit?  But now many puppies are already desexed at 8 weeks to ensure they can never be bred from.  The majority tell the new owner this so they know their puppy is desexed.

 

One lady I met was happy to sell on main register, but all her puppies were already desexed by 8 weeks and she had the new owners sign that they were only buying the puppy as a pet and not for breeding.

she believed that prevented them suing her when they found out the puppy was already desexed.

 

she is the only one I've met who didn't tell that the puppies were already desexed.

 

I only found out by accident as was at a sports day for my daughters school and she was there with the puppies for the new owners to pick up, and she didnt want to miss the sports day so arranged to meet there.

I spotted the stitches as I played with them and she blushed and admitted they had not had hernias as I had thought, but been desexed.  she explained that so many puppy buyers insisted they wanted a main register pup. but did not want to breed.

so had decided to get them done early to ensure they could not be if the new owners had lied to her.

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6 hours ago, asal said:

..... I only found out by accident as was at a sports day for my daughters school and she was there with the puppies for the new owners to pick up, and she didnt want to miss the sports day so arranged to meet there.

I spotted the stitches as I played with them and she blushed and admitted they had not had hernias as I had thought, but been desexed.  she explained that so many puppy buyers insisted they wanted a main register pup. but did not want to breed.

so had decided to get them done early to ensure they could not be if the new owners had lied to her.

I have NEVER actually bred a bitch or a dog, and I've had Mains register when they've been full pedigrees (3 dogs - 2 males and 1 female). I actually showed my little Maltese (male) in a few little shows for fun , he was then desexed. The other male I had ended up having so many things wrong in one poor baby (Hip Dysplasia in both back legs and Elbow Dysplasia in both front legs, Entropian and Ectropian in both eyes, Jaw and spinal malformation problems and THEN he also developed epilepsy) I MIGHT even believe *some* of these problems were acquired .... but not the lot! I fed him the correct percentage of  protein with the best food according to the schedule given to me by the breeder and approved by the vet that I also asked. (Royal Canin & Advance biscuits and fresh meat etc)The breeder had sold other pups with varying similar deformity and genetic issues. I just happened to buy the dog who had inherited everything :( He looked FINE as a pup - I looked at pics of other pups from different people and I could not see any difference - except perhaps a slight droop in his bottom eyelids, which just kept getting worse as he grew. I never got the chance to show him, or desex him because I did not want to put him through yet another anesthetic or procedure. The female dog who was not desexed that I got with Mains was supposed to be a show dog - but nothing comes guaranteed in this, and I know and accept that ... and she just wasn't good enough for showing. I was okay with that. She was bitten by a brown snake and died. Living in the bush at the time, I had no veterinary assistance close enough to help in time.

 

So .... from the experience I have had with an apparent "reputable" breeder, I guess you might understand why I am so scathing about this limited register stuff, especially when paying a huge price. If their answer as to why is "because I said so" is what I get when asking why, then I HAVE to surmise - is it because the pup probably wont be show quality, or they just dont want competition? .... As far as what you've said about the woman desexing her animals and NOT telling the purchasers.... words just fail me? :eek:  D-O-D-G-Y! The buyers would eventually find out ... so it's no wonder people who pay big premiums for their pups are so scathing. And generally speaking, it is not good for the dog to be desexed so young! VERY unethical.  The breeders may not "trust" the purchasers - but conversely, the purchasers have absolutely no reason to trust them (I AM speaking generally - I KNOW there are good people breeding for the love of their dogs)

 

Anyhow, it is what it is. I won't ever find out "why" .... and the idea that "because they said so" is not an answer. Parents tell their kids that!  I'll just "vote" with my wallet. :)

 

 

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34 minutes ago, OzzieLioness said:

I have NEVER actually bred a bitch or a dog, and I've had Mains register when they've been full pedigrees (3 dogs - 2 males and 1 female). I actually showed my little Maltese (male) in a few little shows for fun , he was then desexed. The other male I had ended up having so many things wrong in one poor baby (Hip Dysplasia in both back legs and Elbow Dysplasia in both front legs, Entropian and Ectropian in both eyes, Jaw and spinal malformation problems and THEN he also developed epilepsy) I MIGHT even believe *some* of these problems were acquired .... but not the lot! I fed him the correct percentage of  protein with the best food according to the schedule given to me by the breeder and approved by the vet that I also asked. (Royal Canin & Advance biscuits and fresh meat etc)The breeder had sold other pups with varying similar deformity and genetic issues. I just happened to buy the dog who had inherited everything :( He looked FINE as a pup - I looked at pics of other pups from different people and I could not see any difference - except perhaps a slight droop in his bottom eyelids, which just kept getting worse as he grew. I never got the chance to show him, or desex him because I did not want to put him through yet another anesthetic or procedure. The female dog who was not desexed that I got with Mains was supposed to be a show dog - but nothing comes guaranteed in this, and I know and accept that ... and she just wasn't good enough for showing. I was okay with that. She was bitten by a brown snake and died. Living in the bush at the time, I had no veterinary assistance close enough to help in time.

 

So .... from the experience I have had with an apparent "reputable" breeder, I guess you might understand why I am so scathing about this limited register stuff, especially when paying a huge price. If their answer as to why is "because I said so" is what I get when asking why, then I HAVE to surmise - is it because the pup probably wont be show quality, or they just dont want competition? .... As far as what you've said about the woman desexing her animals and NOT telling the purchasers.... words just fail me? :eek:  D-O-D-G-Y! The buyers would eventually find out ... so it's no wonder people who pay big premiums for their pups are so scathing. And generally speaking, it is not good for the dog to be desexed so young! VERY unethical.  The breeders may not "trust" the purchasers - but conversely, the purchasers have absolutely no reason to trust them (I AM speaking generally - I KNOW there are good people breeding for the love of their dogs)

 

Anyhow, it is what it is. I won't ever find out "why" .... and the idea that "because they said so" is not an answer. Parents tell their kids that!  I'll just "vote" with my wallet. :)

 

 

 

 

I fully understand where you are coming from.  The people who do it destroy trust.

 

I was as shocked as you by the lady who had done that.

 

Those who do have destroyed both the reputation of ankc members and trust in buying from one.

 

its a two edged sword.

 

I believe if a puppy is a credit to its breed it goes on main register regardless of the new owner never wants to show of breed from it.   Problem is that can get me in a shitload of hot water from my fellow members who honestly believe they have a mandate to eliminate any fellow members they feel do not meet their parameters for "ethical" and "responsible". So they get busy dialing the rspca in hopes the constant stress will either make me resign or better yet find something to charge me with so i will have my membership automatically cancelled. Some members are more savage than their dogs.

 

  My friends began parroting, "we have to get rid of backyard breeders and puppy farmers in the 1980's. when I asked them "what on earth do you call what is on the other side of your back door!" they just blinked at me in confusion.

 

they just didnt get it.  EVERYONE HAS A BACKYARD!

 

Well unless they live in an apartment.

 

it was the beginning of the destruction of the ankc

 

30 years on PETA is confidant they will see the extinction of the domestic dog "in this generation"

 

interesting isnt it, the ankc members have been busy eliminating themselves parroting the mantra of PETA.   GEE they must be kacking themselves laughing at the stupidity of dog lovers

 

 

 

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I had 3 dogs on Mains sold as and paid for as show quality.  These 3 all from different breeders should have been on LR. 

 

Now I purchase a show quality dog for show quality price  and get it on LR.

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24 minutes ago, Deeds said:

I had 3 dogs on Mains sold as and paid for as show quality.  These 3 all from different breeders should have been on LR. 

 

Now I purchase a show quality dog for show quality price  and get it on LR.

 

 

there is a reason the really serious breeders run on a litter before they decided which to keep.   puppies change so much there is truth behind the story of the ugly duckling turning out to be the swan.

 

others are the pick from the day of birth and for the rest of their lives.

 

BUT knowing which when they are only 8 weeks,   can do your head in.    but it takes years of watching and learning to realise and understand that

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8 minutes ago, Deeds said:

I had 3 dogs on Mains sold as and paid for as show quality.  These 3 all from different breeders should have been on LR. 

 

Now I purchase a show quality dog for show quality price  and get it on LR.

The irony is that the very people breeding the doodly dogs are more likely than not the very ones who don't give a flying about a Mains register or ANY piece of paper - they will mix their breed to get a cavadoodle, or a spoodle ... and these are the ones the breeders are so scathing about (and rightly so) I was sincerely HORRIFIED to see  "shepsky's" advertised ... a German Shepherd crossed with a Husky. So you get a VERY smart dog  - which will look pretty and (God forbid)  potentially rip off a childs face!  Why the people thought this was a good idea is BEYOND me! I did enquire about them - just to see what the pedigree of the dam and sire were ... and yes, you guessed it ... limited bloody register!!

 

At least with Mains, you MUST join a dog association to show or breed and have SOME sort of standard and regulation! These designer doggy breeders do not care and there is no one to regulate a damn thing!

 

This is probably the wrong sandbox to chat about it in though.

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9 minutes ago, OzzieLioness said:

The irony is that the very people breeding the doodly dogs are more likely than not the very ones who don't give a flying about a Mains register or ANY piece of paper - they will mix their breed to get a cavadoodle, or a spoodle ... and these are the ones the breeders are so scathing about (and rightly so) I was sincerely HORRIFIED to see  "shepsky's" advertised ... a German Shepherd crossed with a Husky. So you get a VERY smart dog  - which will look pretty and (God forbid)  potentially rip off a childs face!  Why the people thought this was a good idea is BEYOND me! I did enquire about them - just to see what the pedigree of the dam and sire were ... and yes, you guessed it ... limited bloody register!!

 

At least with Mains, you MUST join a dog association to show or breed and have SOME sort of standard and regulation! These designer doggy breeders do not care and there is no one to regulate a damn thing!

 

This is probably the wrong sandbox to chat about it in though.

 

the more people report what they are learning, maybe others will learn too.   

 

too little info is out there for the people being told the oodle is the way to go

 

the garden gnome did a number on everyone when he turned against purebreds and began promoting the "designer" dogs

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16 minutes ago, asal said:

 

the more people report what they are learning, maybe others will learn too.   

 

too little info is out there for the people being told the oodle is the way to go

 

the garden gnome did a number on everyone when he turned against purebreds and began promoting the "designer" dogs

You know, I CAN actually understand ONE breed - the Labradoodle - being "created" .... for people who are seriously allergic to regular dog hair and want a larger dog like a Lab, but are unable to tolerate the hair allergy. The poodle will add the "fix to the mix", so they *could* end up getting a ~standard~ and eventually be a stand alone, recognised and registered breed.

 

As for the rest though - if you want a small dog - get a toy poodle! They do not need all these insane mixes! Why on EARTH mix a Maltese terrier with a poodle? You still have a little, fluffy dog! Makes no sense to me. 

 

 

 

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Labradoodles were created by the trainer? for Guide dogs, for the people that were allergic. He is on record as saying how much he regrets it. There was no guarantee any pup would inherit the proper poodle coat.

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49 minutes ago, Rebanne said:

Labradoodles were created by the trainer? for Guide dogs, for the people that were allergic. He is on record as saying how much he regrets it. There was no guarantee any pup would inherit the proper poodle coat.

 

the maddest part is purebred poodles have been

excellent guide dogs 

 

 

https://www.dreamydoodles.com/pros-and-cons-of-poodles-as-service-dogs/

 

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38 minutes ago, Rebanne said:

Labradoodles were created by the trainer? for Guide dogs, for the people that were allergic. He is on record as saying how much he regrets it. There was no guarantee any pup would inherit the proper poodle coat.

 

I do know all this about the Labradoodle - but what I said was a big IF ... if a STANDARD could be created. I said I can understand it so "IF they *could* end up getting a ~standard~ and eventually be a stand alone, recognised and registered breed".       I don't want one - if I did, I could easily buy one. 

 

Breeds have been created for all sorts of purposes since humans began to domesticate them, in order to enhance the humans life and make it easier. Hunting dogs, from hounds to retrievers, Maremmas and other herding breeds like Kelpies, Collies and Cattle dogs that in a "good" dog can do the work of 4 people, to weird little elongated daschunds with 4 inch long legs designed to go down holes to hunt badgers and other burrowing creatures 

 

It is a ridiculous and totally pathetic state of affairs when ones words are twisted and then reinterpreted to not represent *what* you said in the first place. :shrug:

 

 

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23 minutes ago, asal said:

 

the maddest part is purebred poodles have been

excellent guide dogs 

 

Poodles are certainly a VERY smart dog, that is for sure. I have friends that think poodles are just yappy lil boogers.  IF they are, that is on the owner, not the dog. Circuses have poodles as stars BECAUSE they are so smart

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9 hours ago, OzzieLioness said:

 

I do know all this about the Labradoodle - but what I said was a big IF ... if a STANDARD could be created. I said I can understand it so "IF they *could* end up getting a ~standard~ and eventually be a stand alone, recognised and registered breed".       I don't want one - if I did, I could easily buy one. 

 

Breeds have been created for all sorts of purposes since humans began to domesticate them, in order to enhance the humans life and make it easier. Hunting dogs, from hounds to retrievers, Maremmas and other herding breeds like Kelpies, Collies and Cattle dogs that in a "good" dog can do the work of 4 people, to weird little elongated daschunds with 4 inch long legs designed to go down holes to hunt badgers and other burrowing creatures 

 

It is a ridiculous and totally pathetic state of affairs when ones words are twisted and then reinterpreted to not represent *what* you said in the first place. :shrug:

 

 

such an angry little person aren't you. Plenty of people have no idea how Labradoodles came across. You never mentioned guide dogs so how was I to know you knew their background? And you don't know all. There is a standard for Labradoodles in America, breed club and all. Not recognised by the ANKC.

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2 hours ago, Rebanne said:

such an angry little person aren't you. Plenty of people have no idea how Labradoodles came across. You never mentioned guide dogs so how was I to know you knew their background? And you don't know all. There is a standard for Labradoodles in America, breed club and all. Not recognised by the ANKC.

It's good to know that if someone didn't "know what you knew", that this can be used to justify rudeness. I was also not aware that one had to basically include a "whaddaya know" resume when discussing, albeit briefly, an (apparently) emerging dog breed - but it would seem one does when the forum police speak up. My bad! 

 

Given that this is an Australian forum, I was of course discussing this particular dog from an Australian perspective. I do know what the ANKC recognises with this dog. I even know a fair amount about different Horse breed associations too, having had a long relationship with 5 of them myself - but that's another critter! Back to the doggies ..... 

 

I am  sure most don't  know Lady Gaga got herself a  labradoodle. Or that the Labradoodles they are breeding now, with much sounder, ethical practices          on the whole are vastly different dogs to the ones that Conron commented on way back when .... They are not the same dogs  that irresponsible people who pump out of their back yards, listing on Gumtree to flog off for as much money as they can that I was referencing when I said what I did. I did have to look up the actual statement that I read some time ago - I did not want to misquote it! And again, FTR - I do not want one of these dogs.

 

"The Australian Labradoodle Association of America addressed Conron’s comments in a statement on Facebook. The group said the labradoodle is a much more developed dog today than it was back in 1989.

 

The organization admitted that irresponsible breeding does happen. Some breeders ignore health or breed standards. The group urges people seeking labradoodles to go through registered breeders who keep records on their dogs.

 

The organization said many labradoodle owners enjoy the dogs because they are very friendly and “highly social with their humans.” These qualities, combined with being non-shedding and allergy-friendly, make the labradoodle a good choice for many American families, it added.

 

The creation of any breed of dog will undoubtedly throw up some dreadful ones when they first start out. Since these dogs have really only "officially" been around a bit over 30 years, I find it astonishing that they have come as far as they have, and again this is speaking generally.  People could, and probably should,  point the finger at the flatter face breeds - pugs, French and British bulldogs for example  where at least 50% - probably more - end up needing brachycephalic  surgery just to be able to breathe so they don't drop dead ...  but the breeders will continue to breed them. They've been "in development" breeding these dogs for hundreds of years!  I think THAT is something to be outraged about. I am sure that there will be pug owners who will want to defend their cute little guys - and heck, they are cute. But the truth does not change an unpalatable fact - no pun intended.

 

As a final comment, me, angry? Noooo, not at all !  Did you know there are 4 stages of this (mostly) negative emotion and you are unable to even flick at one of them for me. I will say though, that there is only one "little" person here and it's not me. You have the day you deserve now ... I know I will  :wave:

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