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Is There Any Advantage in Having A Pedigree Listed On The Limited Register


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20 hours ago, OzzieLioness said:

You know, I CAN actually understand ONE breed - the Labradoodle - being "created" .... for people who are seriously allergic to regular dog hair and want a larger dog like a Lab, but are unable to tolerate the hair allergy. The poodle will add the "fix to the mix", so they *could* end up getting a ~standard~ and eventually be a stand alone, recognised and registered breed.

 

As for the rest though - if you want a small dog - get a toy poodle! They do not need all these insane mixes! Why on EARTH mix a Maltese terrier with a poodle? You still have a little, fluffy dog! Makes no sense to me. 

 

 

 

There are absolutely no guarantees that crossing breeds will give you anything but a cross bred dog. 

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12 hours ago, stellnme said:

There are absolutely no guarantees that crossing breeds will give you anything but a cross bred dog. 

Although there's an extremely high probability that it will decrease the degree of inbreeding...and it can be a pretty reliable way to reduce extreme characteristics like brachycephaly.

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There is a difference between out crossing to improve a breed with problems and crossing two breeds then claiming they are a new breed.

 

Development of a new breed takes  many years of expert knowledge of genetics and realistic goals.

I understand to some degree why the big push for hypoallergenic low shed dogs as  there seems to be an increase in people allergic to dogs and there are already breeds that fit the bill.

 

I am also allergic to many dogs including my friends 2 oodles.

The Australian Labradoodle people have used 7 breeds in their dogs and only 2 of them the Poodle and Soft coated Wheaten are closest to low shedding and Hypoallergenic .There are no 100% non shedding Hypoallergenic breeds.

The 5 other breeds Lab ,CCR IWS, American and English Cocker spaniels are not low shedding or Hypoallergenic.

In my opinion they are going in circles and may end up with some dogs that look pretty much like Poodles and Wheatens

that may still shed and cause allergic reactions.

Do we need more breeds developed yes why not as long as it is done with the welfare of the dogs as first priority.

 

When does a breed in development become a pure breed ?

 

It doesn't matter pure breed or cross the health of the dog is of utmost importance.

The latest cross of 2 large boned breeds said to be a'' New breed'' are now being sold Not my business the high price ;what does worry me is the pups being de sexed at 8 weeks and I wonder is that bad for fast growing big pups?

The pups are also said to be hypoallergenic;well some might be.

 They are sold to'' their new Guardians ''not new owners so what does that entail.?

If you are selling a pup of mixed breed then say the pup is mixed breed.

 

 

 

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On 25/03/2022 at 1:42 PM, OzzieLioness said:

 

It's good to know that if someone didn't "know what you knew", that this can be used to justify rudeness. I was also not aware that one had to basically include a "whaddaya know" resume when discussing, albeit briefly, an (apparently) emerging dog breed - but it would seem one does when the forum police speak up. My bad! 

 

Given that this is an Australian forum, I was of course discussing this particular dog from an Australian perspective. I do know what the ANKC recognises with this dog. I even know a fair amount about different Horse breed associations too, having had a long relationship with 5 of them myself - but that's another critter! Back to the doggies ..... 

 

I am  sure most don't  know Lady Gaga got herself a  labradoodle. Or that the Labradoodles they are breeding now, with much sounder, ethical practices          on the whole are vastly different dogs to the ones that Conron commented on way back when .... They are not the same dogs  that irresponsible people who pump out of their back yards, listing on Gumtree to flog off for as much money as they can that I was referencing when I said what I did. I did have to look up the actual statement that I read some time ago - I did not want to misquote it! And again, FTR - I do not want one of these dogs.

 

"The Australian Labradoodle Association of America addressed Conron’s comments in a statement on Facebook. The group said the labradoodle is a much more developed dog today than it was back in 1989.

 

The organization admitted that irresponsible breeding does happen. Some breeders ignore health or breed standards. The group urges people seeking labradoodles to go through registered breeders who keep records on their dogs.

 

The organization said many labradoodle owners enjoy the dogs because they are very friendly and “highly social with their humans.” These qualities, combined with being non-shedding and allergy-friendly, make the labradoodle a good choice for many American families, it added.

 

The creation of any breed of dog will undoubtedly throw up some dreadful ones when they first start out. Since these dogs have really only "officially" been around a bit over 30 years, I find it astonishing that they have come as far as they have, and again this is speaking generally.  People could, and probably should,  point the finger at the flatter face breeds - pugs, French and British bulldogs for example  where at least 50% - probably more - end up needing brachycephalic  surgery just to be able to breathe so they don't drop dead ...  but the breeders will continue to breed them. They've been "in development" breeding these dogs for hundreds of years!  I think THAT is something to be outraged about. I am sure that there will be pug owners who will want to defend their cute little guys - and heck, they are cute. But the truth does not change an unpalatable fact - no pun intended.

 

As a final comment, me, angry? Noooo, not at all !  Did you know there are 4 stages of this (mostly) negative emotion and you are unable to even flick at one of them for me. I will say though, that there is only one "little" person here and it's not me. You have the day you deserve now ... I know I will  :wave:

 

 

what gets me is the constant assumption people who breed to supply pets  are the ones supplying the worst affected puppies.   There was a chap at Greystanes who was absolutely a puppy farmer breeding for the pet market only.  I happened to meet him when a friend went there to see some puppies for sale. he had Shih tzu's and Pugs.   as an ankc member I was pretty interested to see what a puppy farmer keeps as his breeders.   NOT one of his Shih Tzus had hernia"s.  As for his pugs, on average they were twice the size of a show bred pug, all had longer faces than the show ones and he explained, the smaller the mum the smaller the litter and the more exaggerated the shorter face the more chance of whelping problems so he had been selecting for longer muzzles for many generations over many years.   Frankly I liked his dogs .  His Shih Tzu's were main register ankc to my surprise as were I think all of his pugs as he had began as an ankc member but decided to select away from show traits that interfered with their breeding and health potential.   ( should add this time was some 20 years ago now, no idea if he is still a member or breeder today)

 

 decades before I had made the same decision when my brother and I bought our first ankc reg'd chihuahua's, from an ankc member who believed the trend to smaller and smaller females was a disaster for the breed, after learning her reasons I agreed with her , but its dangerous to say such things at a show, and makes you nervous of speaking out, so those who do not agree tend to feel pretty isolated.   those who do not walk to the "ethical" "responsible" dead end show only drum tend to not mix with fellow members and keep a low profile to avoid persecution.

 

That began in the early 90's and continues to this day.

 

only today i learned a long time friend, although still and ankc member has cancelled her dogzonline membership because last year she was inspected by the rspca and the first thing the inspector told her, I know your an ankc member because your a member of dogzonline! 

 

she felt so threatened soon as the inspector left, she logged in and cancelled her membership of dogzonline fearing to remain a member would bring more inspections.   I KID you not.

 

Thats pretty shocking to find they are surfing here and targeting us from being members of here?

 

perhaps a good reason for never using your real name ?

 

 

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1 hour ago, asal said:

 

 

what gets me is the constant assumption people who breed to supply pets  are the ones supplying the worst affected puppies.   There was a chap at Greystanes who was absolutely a puppy farmer breeding for the pet market only.  I happened to meet him when a friend went there to see some puppies for sale. he had Shih tzu's and Pugs.   as an ankc member I was pretty interested to see what a puppy farmer keeps as his breeders.   NOT one of his Shih Tzus had hernia"s.  As for his pugs, on average they were twice the size of a show bred pug, all had longer faces than the show ones and he explained, the smaller the mum the smaller the litter and the more exaggerated the shorter face the more chance of whelping problems so he had been selecting for longer muzzles for many generations over many years.   Frankly I liked his dogs .  His Shih Tzu's were main register ankc to my surprise as were I think all of his pugs as he had began as an ankc member but decided to select away from show traits that interfered with their breeding and health potential.   ( should add this time was some 20 years ago now, no idea if he is still a member or breeder today)

 

 decades before I had made the same decision when my brother and I bought our first ankc reg'd chihuahua's, from an ankc member who believed the trend to smaller and smaller females was a disaster for the breed, after learning her reasons I agreed with her , but its dangerous to say such things at a show, and makes you nervous of speaking out, so those who do not agree tend to feel pretty isolated.   those who do not walk to the "ethical" "responsible" dead end show only drum tend to not mix with fellow members and keep a low profile to avoid persecution.

 

That began in the early 90's and continues to this day.

 

only today i learned a long time friend, although still and ankc member has cancelled her dogzonline membership because last year she was inspected by the rspca and the first thing the inspector told her, I know your an ankc member because your a member of dogzonline! 

 

she felt so threatened soon as the inspector left, she logged in and cancelled her membership of dogzonline fearing to remain a member would bring more inspections.   I KID you not.

 

Thats pretty shocking to find they are surfing here and targeting us from being members of here?

 

perhaps a good reason for never using your real name ?

 

 

I can only agree 100% with everything you have said. Whilst the majority of puppy mills are awful and do not have the dogs welfare in mind, you will find good people among them - just as with a registered ANKC breeder you will find UNethical ones (such as the one you mentioned that was desexing dogs as puppies, to the detriment of the dog AND without telling buyers and saying it was for a hernia!)

 

I find it sad that you *cant* have a conversation online - and in particular this forum - about various issues without someone getting their panties in a wad, so I do get where you are coming from. Personally though, I have a "virtual hat" on that says "DILLIGAF" when they decide to attack me or try and tell me I'm angry, wrong or bad or whatever their tiny lil brain has decided I mean or feel. :laugh:

 

I've upset a LOT of bird people critiquing the choice to breed these monster big "English budgies" which are for showing. The problem with it is that these birds have EXACTLY the same DNA as the smaller regular size budgie ... but are bred up to be big and, well ... showy. A regular size healthy budgie should weigh about 30 grams. These English breds are 60 grams plus. The issue is, is that their little leg joints have not caught up, so they can and do suffer dreadfully. All for the sake of a potential ribbon. It's bluddy cruel and very unnecessary. The thoroughbred world is pretty much like that too - they no longer breed for good conformation, but more about who has the fastest / best bloodlines that will win races. It wont matter if they have a parrot mouth ... as long as they are fast and win. The dog world is no different I guess. :(

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Ozzielioness.

 

It is not only man who has changed animals through selective breeding.

Mother nature  plays a big  part in gene mutation recessive genes coming together and has given animals the ability  to change  in order to adapt to new environments like domestic captivity.

So too for birds.Wild budgies a quite tiny compared to even small domestic budgies.

The first blue budgerigar was discovered in a flock of wild green budgies.

The larger show birds were bred from a number of larger budgies that are called long flights.

These birds can pop up in nests of wild and small domestic budgerigars.

They are taller have thimble shaped heads low set wings and longer flight feathers  Larger feet

and have a hawkish appearance;

 

 

Long flights can appear in recessive form in flocks of domesticated and wild budgies.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Deeds said:

What do " the latest cross of 2 large boned breeds said to be a new breed " consist of?

 

What are the 2 large boned breeds/

Will I be breaking forum rules to say ?

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2 hours ago, OzzieLioness said:

I can only agree 100% with everything you have said. Whilst the majority of puppy mills are awful and do not have the dogs welfare in mind, you will find good people among them - just as with a registered ANKC breeder you will find UNethical ones (such as the one you mentioned that was desexing dogs as puppies, to the detriment of the dog AND without telling buyers and saying it was for a hernia!)

 

I find it sad that you *cant* have a conversation online - and in particular this forum - about various issues without someone getting their panties in a wad, so I do get where you are coming from. Personally though, I have a "virtual hat" on that says "DILLIGAF" when they decide to attack me or try and tell me I'm angry, wrong or bad or whatever their tiny lil brain has decided I mean or feel. :laugh:

 

I've upset a LOT of bird people critiquing the choice to breed these monster big "English budgies" which are for showing. The problem with it is that these birds have EXACTLY the same DNA as the smaller regular size budgie ... but are bred up to be big and, well ... showy. A regular size healthy budgie should weigh about 30 grams. These English breds are 60 grams plus. The issue is, is that their little leg joints have not caught up, so they can and do suffer dreadfully. All for the sake of a potential ribbon. It's bluddy cruel and very unnecessary. The thoroughbred world is pretty much like that too - they no longer breed for good conformation, but more about who has the fastest / best bloodlines that will win races. It wont matter if they have a parrot mouth ... as long as they are fast and win. The dog world is no different I guess. :(

 

 

sadly hit the nail there.  the tragedy that was Ruffian and the awful way she died  is increasingly obvious breeding for speed alone and her line has become known for fragile bones.

 

forget the name of the sire involved, but the more x's to him the greater the danger.  But it keeps happening because the survivors win

 

the show scene in all species just keeps morphing them.  be it canine, equine, etc

 

 

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1 hour ago, Purdie said:

Ozzielioness.

 

It is not only man who has changed animals through selective breeding.

Mother nature  plays a big  part in gene mutation recessive genes coming together and has given animals the ability  to change  in order to adapt to new environments like domestic captivity.

So too for birds.Wild budgies a quite tiny compared to even small domestic budgies.

The first blue budgerigar was discovered in a flock of wild green budgies.

The larger show birds were bred from a number of larger budgies that are called long flights.

These birds can pop up in nests of wild and small domestic budgerigars.

They are taller have thimble shaped heads low set wings and longer flight feathers  Larger feet

and have a hawkish appearance;

 

 

Long flights can appear in recessive form in flocks of domesticated and wild budgies.

 

 

 

nature constantly throw in mutations, eg HYPP arrived with Impressive.   Poco Bueno took ages to be found to be carrying a gene that two patterns and the unfortunate foals skin literally falls off. it is now known as HERDA

 

  • HERDA is a genetic disease in quarter horses and appaloosas, especially cutting horses.

  • Signs of HERDA include stretchy skin, severe skin wounds and scarring along the back and withers.

  • The American Quarter Horse Association requires all breeding stallions be tested for HERDA.

  • There is no cure or treatment for horses with HERDA.

A horse affected by HERDA cannot tolerate a saddle as it literally removes their skin from their body.

 

 

Then there is SCIDS  aka the boy in the plastic bubble.

 

found in many species including man.

 

just because mutations occur does not mean they are beneficial in any way to the individual that inherits it. Health wise anyway.

 

show wise?  HYPP horses took the halter QH world by storm.

 

many still wish they were allowed to breed for it despite the affects to the horse with it.

 

Hyperkalemic periodic paralysis (HYPP) is characterized by sporadic attacks of muscle tremors (shaking or trembling), weakness, and/or collapse. Attacks can also be accompanied by loud breathing noises resulting from paralysis of the muscles of the upper airway. Occasionally, sudden death can occur following a severe paralytic attack, presumably from heart failure or respiratory muscle paralysis.

Manifestation of clinical signs of HYPP depends on many factors including stress, diet, and changes in exercise. Some horses may manifest severe signs of the disease while others exhibit little or no signs.

Mode of Inheritance: Autosomal dominant

Alleles: N = Normal/Unaffected, H = Hyperkalemic periodic paralysis

Breeds appropriate for testing: Quarter Horse and related breeds

Explanation of Results:

  • Horses with N/N genotype will not have hyperkalemic periodic paralysis and cannot transmit this hyperkalemic periodic paralysis variant to their offspring.
  • Horses with N/H genotype can display episodes of hyperkalemic periodic paralysis. Horses with this genotype are heterozygous for the variant that makes them susceptible to sporadic episodes of muscle tremors or paralysis; clinical symptoms and frequency of episodes depends on other factors such as diet and exercise. They may transmit this hyperkalemic periodic paralysis variant to 50% of their offspring. Matings with N/N genotype will result in a 50% chance of producing a foal with the affected allele.
  • Horses with H/H genotype can display episodes of hyperkalemic periodic paralysis and typically are more severely affected. They will transmit this hyperkalemic periodic paralysis variant to all of their offspring

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Purdie said:

Ozzielioness.

 

It is not only man who has changed animals through selective breeding.

Mother nature  plays a big  part in gene mutation recessive genes coming together and has given animals the ability  to change  in order to adapt to new environments like domestic captivity.

So too for birds.Wild budgies a quite tiny compared to even small domestic budgies.

The first blue budgerigar was discovered in a flock of wild green budgies.

The larger show birds were bred from a number of larger budgies that are called long flights.

These birds can pop up in nests of wild and small domestic budgerigars.

They are taller have thimble shaped heads low set wings and longer flight feathers  Larger feet

and have a hawkish appearance;

 

 

Long flights can appear in recessive form in flocks of domesticated and wild budgies.

 

 

Of course nature does its thing and that is evolution, good or bad. I do not have an issue with that. All the different canines that have adapted to their environment ... jackals, hyenas, African painted dogs, foxes  etc., is environmental and natural. It is manipulation and interference from humans that I have problems with.

 

As far as when the blue budgie first appeared, I don't know where you got the idea that it was seen in the wild? If you research it, you will find that it was not in the wild - but in an aviary in Brussels in the later part of the 1800's. All wild budgies have the potential to throw every colour seen in these birds, but in the wild they are killed by the flocks. That is why you do not see anything but the standard green and yellow in the wild. Colour anomalies in most wild animals will see them banished from the group, or killed. That's just nature. 

 

The only reason that "regular" size are slightly bigger than their wild counterparts is environmental factors. In the wild, they fly an average 50 km ... sometimes up to 10 times that, every day! The domestic budgies are, for the most part kept in tiny cages and they are fed a seed only diet, because this is what pet shops flog off. My birds not only get free flight every day (should be more, but I AM time poor), get about 2 teaspoons of seed and a plate with grated carrot, broccoli, chili, capsicum and other veg such as a little cooked sweet potato etc. Mine weigh in around 33 grams and thus are about 10% too heavy. You can't stop feeding either though - this will kill them in 48 hours if they don't eat due to their metabolism. Even domesticated budgies need supervision when out along with my parrot ,  they are parakeets which just means small parrot so they're hard wired to chew anything! Especially electrical cords!

 

As for long flights being the origin of English bred, no that's not correct. In fact, if a judge at a bird show spots any long flight characteristics in them, the birds will be disqualified. These are faults and not how the English bred was created in mid 1800's. And it's not just their joints that have problems. Their hearts, on the whole did not get bigger with their bodies, so effectively, you have a bird bred for showing that will never have a long life. It's just appalling.

 

It is seen in domesticated dogs - pugs are the easiest example I can think of. Some will breed bigger, buggier eyes in the breed because that's "so adorable" and people will pay more - or the flattest face you can because "its so cute" - and the end result? A dog that has BOAS and the owner is either ignorant or wont spent the big bucks on brachycephalic surgery to correct, or the dog just drops dead because their heart gives out from a prolonged lack of oxygen. 

 

My EX has a pug and I've seen video of it struggling to breathe. It's beyond my comprehension that this goes on.

 

To bring this back to topic - when a Pedigree of limited register (or none) is all that is offered to people who are paying big sums for their dogs, AND they want the puppy experience, or try to recoup their money I guess - I see it that this is in large part why these crazy mixes are popping up - the "designer doggy". You don't get a pedigree, so it doesn't matter to them.

 

Actually, as much as puppies are cute n all, I would NOT want to (deliberately) go through it. :scared:

 

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AND less and less people annually want to. OzzieLioness   for good reason

 

lets face it. to breed a litter these days is to risk being a target

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16 minutes ago, asal said:

 

 

sadly hit the nail there.  the tragedy that was Ruffian and the awful way she died  is increasingly obvious breeding for speed alone and her line has become known for fragile bones.

 

forget the name of the sire involved, but the more x's to him the greater the danger.  But it keeps happening because the survivors win

 

the show scene in all species just keeps morphing them.  be it canine, equine, etc

 

 

 ASAL, when I was really heavily involved in the Thoroughbred Association, I read some literature where the English governing body was asking the bigger TB studs in particular to help the breed, especially with conformation, to infuse Arab blood back into them. That's an AWESOME idea ... in theory hey? If you did it, in 10 generations the progeny would be accepted back into the Stud Book (unlike the Arabian Association who will NEVER let you back in :laugh: ). With billions of dollars on the line .... there is no one who will do it of course. So - we see horse with ridiculously long fetlocks and pastern bones and break down and have to be euthanised, longggggg backs - clearly so their nose will cross the line first but let's not worry if they have pain and major spinal problems and break down :( More minor issues like an overreach when they canter still hurts them and causes pain. Just so cruel.

 

You are right ... be it bird - equine - canine - feline ....makes no difference.

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6 minutes ago, asal said:

AND less and less people annually want to. OzzieLioness   for good reason

 

lets face it. to breed a litter these days is to risk being a target

Agreed. I just have a huge issue with this limited register BS. If its a pedigreed show quality animal, give it the paperwork is my opinion. I do understand that puppies might grow up and be mismarked, or otherwise not a show animal. I think a fairer solution, if these people are not scared of the competition (remember, I've never had a reason given - just the "because I said" crap) would be to have it a contractual agreement that should the pup grow to be a show quality animal, it can then be moved to Mains. This could be 'judged' by a mutually agreed judge down the track.

 

I think breeders are seriously overreaching with controlling every aspect of something YOU now own. They are happy enough to take your money ....  If you think the person isn't going to be good to the puppy you bred, either sell it without papers, or just dont sell it. 

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2 minutes ago, Purdie said:

Ozzielioness.

 

It appears you are an expert on so many topics.

I only bred budgies for 35 years so what would I know.

 

45 years here ... but hey, whats a decade right?

 

Expert? Nah. But having horses, running a stud with 14 of my own mares and my stallion, along with my birds just meant I learned stuff along the way. 

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7 minutes ago, Purdie said:

Ozzielioness.

 

It appears you are an expert on so many topics.

I only bred budgies for 35 years so what would I know.

 

*Sigh* Another of the ad hominin brigade. I did not insult you ... I just pointed out the errors in what you posted, and more to the point, why they were not right. But no worries, I have my hat on :wave: 

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15 minutes ago, asal said:

spotted this photo of it said, two purebred  litter mates  so still quite a bit of genetic diversity on display here

 

 

image.thumb.png.dd17dc2c6f67c715ae7500f2c0b6ee5e.png

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Are they corgis? Such odd lil dudes LOL

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