Find me some lines within breeds maybe

[asal]

On 09/05/2022 at 7:46 AM, DogsAndTheMob said:

“Find me some lines”.

I have the impression that it’s not as easy to find distinct lines within breeds as it once was. I think there are fewer reputable kennels of sufficient size to develop distinct lines without going down an inbreeding rabbit-hole. Also, “line-breeding” has lost credibility and, judging by pedigrees I’ve seen, even large kennels seem much more likely to seek out unrelated sires than they would have a few decades ago.

 

I’d love to hear commentary on this from more knowledgeable people.

 

 its got to the stage now you are not allowed to keep enough to be a "kennels of sufficient size" anymore.  

[Paul777]

On 08/05/2022 at 7:28 AM, Podgus said:

I re read your OP a couple of times this morning because the one breed I think really ticks your boxes is the Standard or Miniature Poodle depending on the size you want. 
Coat seems to be the only con, and there’s no shame in shaving a poodle down to its knickers every 6-8 weeks. Something you could learn to do yourself. Everything off with a 7 blade (you have basically have a dog that is the shape of a Doberman underneath) 

 

also the PBGV. Again coat, but  hand stripped, just raked through and kept a bit rustic or clipped, it’s not a difficult coat 

 

and if you’re open to mixes, the ‘Labradoodles’ with the straight  (shorter often wiry textured and low maintenance) coats are some of the very nicest dogs I’ve ever handled 

Reading the OPs posts, a Standard poodle also came to mind. 
My personal preferences were breeds like Rotti's, GSDs and Boxers. I'd have not ever considered a Standard Poodle. That was until I got to know a few well trained examples. 
Were I in the position to take on another rescue, I'd definitely consider a Standard. 

[corvus]

Hi everyone, thanks for your thoughts. Sorry I disappeared for weeks.

 

I said "lines", but it might be a loose interpretation. From what I've seen lately, you can still go visit a breeder and their dogs of the same breed will act similarly. I guess that breeders even if they are paying attention to COIs (and I actually doubt that) are still breeding for temperaments and looks they like, hopefully. 

 

Seriously, poodles of all varieties BOUNCE. You see it in oodles as well. I have met some nice standards, but I think I am coming to terms with the fact that I don't want to spend significant time clipping or brushing. 

 

Herding breeds I am fond of. Love a good kelpie. If I knew where to find a kelpie that can also be a suburban superstar, I'd be pursuing that. Although OH says he doesn't want a kelpie. Or a Golden. 

 

Springers I thought seriously about. I eventually decided something capable of lying down quietly at a cafe without constant bribery would be good. Spoke to a few spaniel people, decided to keep looking.

 

BCs same as kelpies. I have met some delights, but goodness knows where you actually find them. I see a few anxious BCs in my line of work and they are nightmarish creatures I would not wish on my worst enemy. 

 

I'm prepared to compromise, and I guess may have to. 

 

 

[sandgrubber]

On 09/06/2022 at 7:12 PM, corvus said:

Springers I thought seriously about. I eventually decided something capable of lying down quietly at a cafe without constant bribery would be good. Spoke to a few spaniel people, decided to keep looking.

If you want to find a good Spanner, I'd suggest joining NZ Working Spaniels FB group and describe what you're looking for. Springers are widely used in hunting in NZ, and some working dogs are highly disciplined. My impression is that there aren't many working spaniels in Oz.

[raineth]

I’ve got three wild card ideas. Firstly American Hairless Terriers. From what I have heard they have quite people focused, energetic but not energetic to the level of a Kelpie, and they are dog social which is surprising trait for a terrier.

My second idea was curly coat retriever. I have only met one but it was very steady and calm in temperament. Didn’t have the typical retriever exuberance for life.

last idea was a mini foxie/Tenterfield terrier. They are trainable and dog social I believe.

[Princess Fru Fru]

As a terrier person, nothing irks me more than the overly generalised “terriers aren’t dog friendly” misconception. Short-legged terriers (and most terriers to be honest) hunt/work in packs either with other terriers or other breeds (gundogs, hounds etc) so dog aggression was not tolerated.  Yes, they’ll stand up for themselves if challenged but rarely will a terrier actively seek out confrontation.

 

It is beyond tiresome continually hearing about how aggressive or anti-social terriers are because it’s actually become seriously detrimental to all terrier breeds. Ownership has decreased to worrying levels and many are on vulnerable lists as there’s little to no interest.

 

Sorry to hijack your thread Corvus but I think there would be many terrier breeds that might suit. Sealys have gorgeous friendly dispositions as do Cairns, Norfolks, Aussies and Jacks. They all have a keen working drive, are very intelligent, biddable but not afraid to challenge their owners. At the same time they make excellent companions, are very confident and adaptable — a well-bred terrier will have a solid temperament and should never be nervy or skittish. Terriers take everything in their stride and really are just loveable fun machines!

 

They are also fine off-leash (another common misconception that they can never be off-leash), can have amazing recall and I believe they really are the most versatile group of dogs. They can be competitive in flyball, agility, obedience, earthdog and I know heaps that do lure coursing and hold endurance titles too. 
 

Their coats are easily maintained and don’t need to be hand stripped if you choose not to. Some breed lines don’t have thick, profuse coats so are totally fine with weekly brushing/combing and the occasional bath. Hand stripping does maintain the coarse texture which is ideal if you’re out in the bush — weeds and burrs don’t really stick to proper wire coats — but it’s definitely not mandatory.

[Boronia]

7 hours ago, Princess Fru Fru said:

As a terrier person, nothing irks me more than the overly generalised “terriers aren’t dog friendly” misconception. Short-legged terriers (and most terriers to be honest) hunt/work in packs either with other terriers or other breeds (gundogs, hounds etc) so dog aggression was not tolerated.  Yes, they’ll stand up for themselves if challenged but rarely will a terrier actively seek out confrontation.

 

It is beyond tiresome continually hearing about how aggressive or anti-social terriers are because it’s actually become seriously detrimental to all terrier breeds. Ownership has decreased to worrying levels and many are on vulnerable lists as there’s little to no interest.

 

Sorry to hijack your thread Corvus but I think there would be many terrier breeds that might suit. Sealys have gorgeous friendly dispositions as do Cairns, Norfolks, Aussies and Jacks. They all have a keen working drive, are very intelligent, biddable but not afraid to challenge their owners. At the same time they make excellent companions, are very confident and adaptable — a well-bred terrier will have a solid temperament and should never be nervy or skittish. Terriers take everything in their stride and really are just loveable fun machines!

 

They are also fine off-leash (another common misconception that they can never be off-leash), can have amazing recall and I believe they really are the most versatile group of dogs. They can be competitive in flyball, agility, obedience, earthdog and I know heaps that do lure coursing and hold endurance titles too. 
 

Their coats are easily maintained and don’t need to be hand stripped if you choose not to. Some breed lines don’t have thick, profuse coats so are totally fine with weekly brushing/combing and the occasional bath. Hand stripping does maintain the coarse texture which is ideal if you’re out in the bush — weeds and burrs don’t really stick to proper wire coats — but it’s definitely not mandatory.

 

100% on what Princess Fru Fru said 

edited to add...perhaps not Dandies; real triers but those legs are just too short for keeping up

Edited June 15 by Boronia

[Podgus]

9 hours ago, Princess Fru Fru said:

As a terrier person, nothing irks me more than the overly generalised “terriers aren’t dog friendly” misconception. Short-legged terriers (and most terriers to be honest) hunt/work in packs either with other terriers or other breeds (gundogs, hounds etc) so dog aggression was not tolerated.  Yes, they’ll stand up for themselves if challenged but rarely will a terrier actively seek out confrontation.

 

It is beyond tiresome continually hearing about how aggressive or anti-social terriers are because it’s actually become seriously detrimental to all terrier breeds. Ownership has decreased to worrying levels and many are on vulnerable lists as there’s little to no interest.

 

Sorry to hijack your thread Corvus but I think there would be many terrier breeds that might suit. Sealys have gorgeous friendly dispositions as do Cairns, Norfolks, Aussies and Jacks. They all have a keen working drive, are very intelligent, biddable but not afraid to challenge their owners. At the same time they make excellent companions, are very confident and adaptable — a well-bred terrier will have a solid temperament and should never be nervy or skittish. Terriers take everything in their stride and really are just loveable fun machines!

 

They are also fine off-leash (another common misconception that they can never be off-leash), can have amazing recall and I believe they really are the most versatile group of dogs. They can be competitive in flyball, agility, obedience, earthdog and I know heaps that do lure coursing and hold endurance titles too. 
 

Their coats are easily maintained and don’t need to be hand stripped if you choose not to. Some breed lines don’t have thick, profuse coats so are totally fine with weekly brushing/combing and the occasional bath. Hand stripping does maintain the coarse texture which is ideal if you’re out in the bush — weeds and burrs don’t really stick to proper wire coats — but it’s definitely not mandatory.

I concur. 
the Border & Irish are two that come to mind as potentially suitable. 
 

[Selkie]

Now I want an irish terrier :D

[Podgus]

I was thinking as for looking at lines, I’d join some breed FB groups. Especially within less popular breeds, posting from a variety of  owners, you quickly get a feel for what certain lines look like, and also over time can garner information about temperaments, behaviour & even health.  

[sandgrubber]

4 hours ago, Podgus said:

I was thinking as for looking at lines, I’d join some breed FB groups. Especially within less popular breeds, posting from a variety of  owners, you quickly get a feel for what certain lines look like, and also over time can garner information about temperaments, behaviour & even health.  

Groups, yes, but stick to working dog or sporting dog groups to avoid the universal pet dog discussions on potty training, best food, crying in his crate, and puppies biting and chewing.

[Deeds]

I've decided my next dog might be a Spanish Water Dog.  There is a breeder in NSW and the breed looks interesting.  They are working dogs.

 

 

[sandgrubber]

11 hours ago, Deeds said:

I've decided my next dog might be a Spanish Water Dog.  There is a breeder in NSW and the breed looks interesting.  They are working dogs.

 

 

Unless actively bred for work (what work will water dogs be doing in Oz), rare breeds tend to become novelty pets.  Small breeding pool.  High risk of inbreeding

[Salukifan]

 

 

On 9/6/2022 at 5:12 PM, corvus said:

 

 

I'm prepared to compromise, and I guess may have to. 

 

 

You will have to. Right now I think you’re looking for a unicorn. 
 

There are working ESS breeders in Australia. Wrangham are probably the most high profile.  The dogs tend to stay within hunting circles and the police now have some. 
 

A small breed population shouldn’t deter you. Most breeders of rarer breeds import semen. 
 

Your biggest challenge, quite frankly, will be to convince a breeder you can raise a pup safely and that you have realistic expectations about what training can accomplish and what instinct won’t extinguish.  Bush running has risks.  Most breeders of higher drive working and hunting dogs prefer to sell to people with experience in the breed and runs on the board. 

Edited June 18 by Salukifan

[The Spotted Devil]

On 18/6/2022 at 9:32 AM, Salukifan said:

 

 

You will have to. Right now I think you’re looking for a unicorn. 
 

There are working ESS breeders in Australia. Wrangham are probably the most high profile.  The dogs tend to stay within hunting circles and the police now have some. 
 

A small breed population shouldn’t deter you. Most breeders of rarer breeds import semen. 
 

Your biggest challenge, quite frankly, will be to convince a breeder you can raise a pup safely and that you have realistic expectations about what training can accomplish and what instinct won’t extinguish.  Bush running has risks.  Most breeders of higher drive working and hunting dogs prefer to sell to people with experience in the breed and runs on the board. 

 

Yes I think you've nailed it on all levels. My foundation bitch was from Wrangham. They are the most fun dogs but they have their challenges like any breed. That said, my older girls have THE best recalls which is nothing more than smart training. My 8 month old is, shall we say, a work in progress  

Edited June 24 by The Spotted Devil

[JRG]

Sorry I did not follow this before -

i think you are being too cautious,  why not get yourself a really good bitch and breed a pup yourself?  It is not so difficult if you can persuade the right folk to give you advice.  You obviously have experience re what you want to achieve and the  dog you are looking for,  so go for it.

[Papillon Kisses]

20 hours ago, JRG said:

Sorry I did not follow this before -

i think you are being too cautious,  why not get yourself a really good bitch and breed a pup yourself?  It is not so difficult if you can persuade the right folk to give you advice.  You obviously have experience re what you want to achieve and the  dog you are looking for,  so go for it.

I think so too. Well, maybe not the breeding part but certainly the getting a dog part.

 

Corvus, you have so much knowledge, skill and experience that it’s like a reverse Dunning-Kruger situation.

 

I’ve laughed/winced at some of the comments wondering if they know who you are.

 

I do hope you get an easier ride than in the past but remember that past has brought you where you are now.

Edited July 12 by Papillon Kisses

[coneye]

17 hours ago, Papillon Kisses said:

I think so too. Well, maybe not the breeding part but certainly the getting a dog part.

 

Corvus, you have so much knowledge, skill and experience that it’s like a reverse Dunning-Kruger situation.

 

I’ve laughed/winced at some of the comments wondering if they know who you are.

 

I do hope you get an easier ride than in the past but remember that past has brought you where you are now.

My mates got a dog that would fit everything you want , A german wire haired pointer , when i first met it has a pup , too be honest i thought , Mmmm  this scatterbrain little boys gonna be a real handful , It was with two other dogs , a bitza and a  staffy crosss  , actually looked like a pit bull , and even they could'nt get away from it quick enough ,, , it  was,nt really a good example of a dog ,, but to be honest ,  and fair ,,  him and his wife  live in an old house on 10 acres , and there idea of training a dog is , Let it do what it wants ,  they just   don't bother  , the dogs sleep where they want do what they want  and the only  structure they get is  they learnt to stand still  and wag there tail ,  while the foods coming out .

 

But however each time i've gone back to visit the pointer just gets better has its got older ,    he just sits up  or lies down watching my mate all day ,  when he moves the dog moves , its just seems such an obediant ,  and  loyal dog , does'nt want to leave there side , but yet its not clingy if you know what i mean it just lies down patiantly waiting  to go out or play , it can run all day  or be a couch potatoe , its a really really good dog , and for a dog thats NEVER had any training  or bounderies set , it does'nt    cross any , they have chooks , it does'nt chgase , theres sheep on the property next door it does'nt bother with ,  jumps the fence occasionaly to go play with the  kelpies next door but thats it , usually it does,nt leave there back porch ,  , theres scrubland  near by it does'nt wanfder where the other two do  , absolutly terrific dog ,  now i've never even seen never mind own one so i don't know if its  the breed in general or they just got lucky ,, he often goes for a walk with his wife into town and that is the only dog they take , because he loves the pats he gets , and is no trouble at the coffee shop he just sits quiet  hoping someone will pat him , where the other two will knock tables over  , sounds excatly what your looking for ,, in fact may have just talked myself into getting one LOL

[Kirislin]

What about a Sloughi?  I believe there’s some puppies now.

[Rozzie]

Fox Terrier