GreatDanz Posted July 28, 2005 Author Share Posted July 28, 2005 But dogs are not wolves. Wild dogs do not form big packs and go off hunting large animals. They live on their own or in small groups and feed off our waste. They do not have the motor skills to capture enough prey to survive on. Why do people always start off raw food comments with 'well the wolf...' ? We don't base our diets on what apes eat. The reason we do this is because genetically and physiologically the domestic dog and gray wolves are nearly identical. As I stated previously, even their DNA is 99.8% identical. Wolves hunt in packs, they will go for anything from mice to moose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 (edited) I think dogs are basically scavengers. My dogs take passionfruit off the vine and eat the whole thing and lots of other different fruit that grows in their yard so they are adding their own fruit and vegies to their diets. Maybe there is no fruit trees were wolves live Edited July 28, 2005 by packsapunch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 But dogs are not wolves. You could also use the Dingo as an example, or Feral dogs. Basically, when you get down to it, they all eat the same. There are many, many studies on all manner of Canis Lupus (any of the Wolves, the Dingo, domestic and feral dogs) which show just how similar they are in relation to diet. The main variation is the prey that is available from region to region and country to country. Wolves in Canada are eating slightly different prey to wolves in Romania or Wolves in different parts of the US, Dingos in subtropical areas are eating slightly different prey to ones in desert areas and feral dogs in the Snowy Mountains region are eating different prey to feral dogs in Botswana. As I said though, when you get down to it, their diets are very very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prydenjoy Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 We don't base our diets on what apes eat. That's called evolution, we're not apes anymore Dog's have been selectively bred from wolves to look different, but their digestive tracts are still exactly the same. Also, look at an apes teeth, they are different to ours - that is because we have evolved to eat different things, dogs and wolves teeth are the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Shepherd mom Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 What is the average lifespan and health of a wolf or dingo in the wild? just curious..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Average age unfortunately isn't much use when comparing domestic dogs to wild canids as the biggest killer of wolves when you look at mortality statistics is humans - either via a bullet, trap or being hit by a vehicle. Other deaths are from 'natural causes' including broken bones, being staked on stick while hunting and being injured by their prey and injured in a fight. If a wolf in wild survives all this they can live to a reasonably good age. Here are some mortality statistics from Yellowstone you may find interesting: http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/deadwolf.htm It is important to remember too, that there is a difference between living a a long life and living a healthy life up to the point of death. Many sdogs, for instance, may live a long life, but many of those years may not necessarily be healthy ones (and certainly not ones that would allow them to function effectively in the wild) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 GreatDanz, this is nothing new. I have fed my dogs this way for the last 20 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatDanz Posted July 29, 2005 Author Share Posted July 29, 2005 GreatDanz, this is nothing new. I have fed my dogs this way for the last 20 years! ;) That is SO wonderful!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 (edited) I think it's important to note even though the DNA profile is very close that dogs are not wolves, their lives went down different paths a long time ago, sure some aspects of their body language remains the same but their diet doesn't neccessary have to, wolves eat in the wild what they have to to survive and they source the proteins and minerals they need, dogs on the other hand of course benefit from a raw diet in some cases, however dogs have been domestic for a very long time now, even though DNA is similar that doesn't mean their life styles are or what their bodies and organs have adapted to over time. Many dogs who lives in the wild today such as in places like Africa are not hunters, they are savengers. Just life humans and apes.....our body language is very similar but our lifestyles and diet isn't, what an ape eats isn't neccesarly a well balanced diet for the human species let alone could our bodies which have adapated to our our environment tolerate what apes consume? We are different species... I like a raw diet but I don't think it's the only way to go for a healthy well adjusted dog. Edited July 30, 2005 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz and Amie Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 We tried the raw diet for a time, and it was beneficial to Fitz for a week or so, after that he began to get sick again (he has an easily agitated stomach, and throws up a lot!). We ended up switching him to natures gift dog food (in the small single serves, we find he likes it better then the tinned food, and has less of a reaction to it). We also feed him eukanuba dry food, small dog maintance, and we have seen a dramatic improvement to his health and well being. I don't think he will ever be a solid little dog, but he has put on some weight, and he looks lovely. We have also noticed a difference in the number of times he is sick. We can only give him white treats (such as dentibones, and other dental aides), this is a little unfortunate as he really loves liver treats, but they upset him too much. We also used to give him chicken wings, but after we stopped giving him these his health improved again. Basically I think that whatever works for the dog is the best thing for them. While a raw diet is wonderful for most dogs, there are some out there that benefit from a commercial diet. That being said I picked a company that I trust, they do not use colours, artificial flavours, and the meat and other ingredients are human grade. This was really important to us, as any kind of artifical flavour, or colour upsets Fitz quite a bit. I also think that it is important to pick a food that has meat as one of the first three ingredients, this is why we picked eukanuba (and Natures Gift), it is a high quality food, that has a high meat content. I dont think that we can really compare pet food, even a raw diet, to what wolves eat in the wild. We buy pre killed food for our animals, and you must trust the source of this meat. Do you know the grade of the meat? Has it had dye in it, to distinguish between human grade and pet grade? Where has it been? How old is it? How has it been handled? Does it contain contaminents (both environmental and from the animal it came from? The list goes on and on really, if you wanted to feed a truely raw diet you would just buy rabbits to release into your yard so the dog could hunt for itself (I know no one would probably do this, Im just trying to illistrate that no matter what the manner of serving, your dogs are still eating a commercial diet, and you need to look at where the food is coming from, and how it is being prepared). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhoundangel Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 Your last point was very interesting, as a gentleman that has one of my hounds truly believes in aquiring his own meat... His staghound is allowed to hunt for Roo's and he then takes the animal home for his dogs to eat... He also does not trust meat from the supermarkets... Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatDanz Posted July 30, 2005 Author Share Posted July 30, 2005 I think it's important to note even though the DNA profile is very close that dogs are not wolves, their lives went down different paths a long time ago, sure some aspects of their body language remains the same but their diet doesn't neccessary have to, wolves eat in the wild what they have to to survive and they source the proteins and minerals they need, dogs on the other hand of course benefit from a raw diet in some cases, however dogs have been domestic for a very long time now, even though DNA is similar that doesn't mean their life styles are or what their bodies and organs have adapted to over time.Many dogs who lives in the wild today such as in places like Africa are not hunters, they are savengers. Just life humans and apes.....our body language is very similar but our lifestyles and diet isn't, what an ape eats isn't neccesarly a well balanced diet for the human species let alone could our bodies which have adapated to our our environment tolerate what apes consume? We are different species... I like a raw diet but I don't think it's the only way to go for a healthy well adjusted dog. That's right, the Gray Wolf lives in the wild, therefore millions of years of evolution has given them a digestive system that functions perfectly on raw meat. In contrast, kibble has only been around for at the most 100 years. Also note, I am only comparing domestic dogs to Gray Wolves. Gray Wolves hunt, they are Carnivores. Domestic dogs are most genetically and physiologically similar to these animals. Any specialist will tell you that the internal workings of these wolves and dogs are nearly identical. So, you see, comparing humans and apes is not at all like comparing Dogs and Gray Wolves. "I like a raw diet but I don't think it's the only way to go for a healthy well adjusted dog." No, your dog will just be HEALTHIER on a raw diet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatDanz Posted July 30, 2005 Author Share Posted July 30, 2005 "I dont think that we can really compare pet food, even a raw diet, to what wolves eat in the wild. We buy pre killed food for our animals, and you must trust the source of this meat. Do you know the grade of the meat? Has it had dye in it, to distinguish between human grade and pet grade? Where has it been? How old is it? How has it been handled? Does it contain contaminents (both environmental and from the animal it came from?" Don't take this as a tort reply, but how can you be worried about fresh meat from the grocery store when you feed your dog kibble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz and Amie Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 Thats not really the point I was trying to make, I was suggesting that if you are feeding raw, find a supplier that you trust, and investigate how the meat is handled, and where it comes from. I have read and heard from people who have found all kinds of nasty things in pet meat, (metal filings, dyes, ect.). I just think that no matter what you feed your dog, you should investigate the source of the meat, (even if it is just to ask around the other dolers, for a good high quality source). This is by no means a put down of BARF, just a note to be aware of what you are actually feeding your dog. As to how can I speak, I feed kibble , I feed a high quality dry food, that has had proven results with my dog, it has improved his health, and that is the most important thing to me Whatever works for whatever dog is the right thing to do, we tried BARF, and raw meat, it was illsuited for Fitz, that does not mean other dogs with normal stomachs (or even those with Fitz's condition), will not benefit from feeding raw food. I was simply stating what works for us, and pointing out that buying pre killed meat is still a form of commercial feeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 Also note, I am only comparing domestic dogs to Gray Wolves. Gray Wolves hunt, they are Carnivores. Domestic dogs are most genetically and physiologically similar to these animals. Any specialist will tell you that the internal workings of these wolves and dogs are nearly identical.So, you see, comparing humans and apes is not at all like comparing Dogs and Gray Wolves. "I like a raw diet but I don't think it's the only way to go for a healthy well adjusted dog." No, your dog will just be HEALTHIER on a raw diet. Adult apes and adult humans have very similar digestive systems, the only difference is that the human intestines are longer. You can't make a blanket statement that a dog will be healthier on a Raw diet because quite simply not all dogs can consume a raw diet therefore it is not beneficial to them. Don't get me wrong, I feed my girl raw meat but I also give her 'Missing Link' as well. Our environments are so different from the wild, we have concerns such as polution that can deplete an animals minerals/proteins/trace elements, sometimes a little something extra is neccessary in some dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatDanz Posted July 30, 2005 Author Share Posted July 30, 2005 Also note, I am only comparing domestic dogs to Gray Wolves. Gray Wolves hunt, they are Carnivores. Domestic dogs are most genetically and physiologically similar to these animals. Any specialist will tell you that the internal workings of these wolves and dogs are nearly identical. So, you see, comparing humans and apes is not at all like comparing Dogs and Gray Wolves. "I like a raw diet but I don't think it's the only way to go for a healthy well adjusted dog." No, your dog will just be HEALTHIER on a raw diet. Adult apes and adult humans have very similar digestive systems, the only difference is that the human intestines are longer. You can't make a blanket statement that a dog will be healthier on a Raw diet because quite simply not all dogs can consume a raw diet therefore it is not beneficial to them. Don't get me wrong, I feed my girl raw meat but I also give her 'Missing Link' as well. Our environments are so different from the wild, we have concerns such as polution that can deplete an animals minerals/proteins/trace elements, sometimes a little something extra is neccessary in some dogs. "Adult apes and adult humans have very similar digestive systems, the only difference is that the human intestines are longer." Interesting information, but I am not sure how it applies here. "You can't make a blanket statement that a dog will be healthier on a Raw diet because quite simply not all dogs can consume a raw diet therefore it is not beneficial to them." I can, and I did. The percentage of dogs that cannot consume a raw diet is incredibly small, and I have not yet heard a single medical reason in this discussion for not feeding a dog raw. "Don't get me wrong, I feed my girl raw meat but I also give her 'Missing Link' as well." Excellent! ;) ;) "Our environments are so different from the wild, we have concerns such as polution that can deplete an animals minerals/proteins/trace elements, sometimes a little something extra is neccessary in some dogs." Show me a scientific study that proves this conclusively and I will agree 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhoundangel Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 Raw Meat: A Dangerous Fad I still stand by what I wrote under another thread, all dogs are different...you need to find the best way to feed 'your' dog... What works for one, may not work for another... One thing I know is that the majority of people on this forum are dog lovers and will do everything in their power to provide their dog with the required care... I think it's good to discuss different feeding methods but I don't agree with people having a 'down your throat' approach... Finding what works for your dog and that keeps them healthy is all that matters... Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatDanz Posted July 30, 2005 Author Share Posted July 30, 2005 Raw Meat: A Dangerous FadI still stand by what I wrote under another thread, all dogs are different...you need to find the best way to feed 'your' dog... What works for one, may not work for another... One thing I know is that the majority of people on this forum are dog lovers and will do everything in their power to provide their dog with the required care... I think it's good to discuss different feeding methods but I don't agree with people having a 'down your throat' approach... Finding what works for your dog and that keeps them healthy is all that matters... Mel Mel, your link doesn't work. All dogs may look different on the outside, but on the inside they are very much the same. Providing your dog with the "required" care and providing your dog with the best care are two very different things. This thread was not about discussing different feeding methods, it's about my challenge to anyone here to try a raw diet for two months. I stand by my convictions. I have provided scientific data on how a raw diet is best for a domestic dog. How is that 'down your throat'? I have asked for one scientific study, one NOT funded by kibble companies or non-scientific drivel, to show that raw is detrimental to your dog's health. Still no takers to my challenge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhoundangel Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 I still stand by what I wrote under another thread, all dogs are different...you need to find the best way to feed 'your' dog... Mel, your link doesn't work. All dogs may look different on the outside, but on the inside they are very much the same. Providing your dog with the "required" care and providing your dog with the best care are two very different things. This thread was not about discussing different feeding methods, it's about my challenge to anyone here to try a raw diet for two months. I stand by my convictions. I have provided scientific data on how a raw diet is best for a domestic dog. How is that 'down your throat'? I have asked for one scientific study, one NOT funded by kibble companies or non-scientific drivel, to show that raw is detrimental to your dog's health. Still no takers to my challenge? Here's the link again: http://secondchanceranch.org/training/raw_meat/ Hopefully it will work this time On the inside one would hope that all dogs are the same, but when it comes to how their 'insides' function, genetics, environmental factors etc you can't treat them all the same... I know what the thread is about, but I feel that there are a few that feed BARF that do have a 'down your throat' approach...If you are going to challenge someone to try a raw diet then you are going to then be challenged from others with different ideals... For my dogs it is a mixture of raw and kibble...due to the way my dogs 'insides' function, this has been the best method for them... We've had so many dogs and I think about all the different methods of feeding we have used, and especially working with a racing animal, and I can honestly say that not one method has 'stuck' out more than another, again it came down to what worked best for that dog... Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 *shakes head* you don't listen before you respond Dane. There are plently scientific studies, do a google search. Learn to listen before you respond, it's a great trait to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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