GreatDanz Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 (edited) Looking through the archives of this and other doggie discussion board, I see a theme. Gas, diarrhea, hair loss, rashes, obesity, dry skin and coat, yeast and staph infections, low energy...... I personally have dealt with rashes, staph infection, and chronic diarrhea in my dogs. I know that many of you are skeptical, but hear me out. I speak from my own experience and years of experience from other dog owners. Diets full of grains, sugar and chemicals can be the root cause for many of these conditions, they most definitely were with my boys. First some facts about canines: Taxonomy - Dog Kingdom - Animalia Phylum - Chordata SubPhylum - Vertebrata Class - Mammalia Order - Carnivora Family - Canidae Genus - Canis <-- Scientific Name Species - domesticus Notice that Domestic Dogs and Wolves are of the same species, Canis lupis and both are in the Carnivora (Carnivore) family. Genetically, the domestic dog's closest cousin is the Gray Wolf, dogs and wolves share 99.8% of their mitochondrial DNA. Dogs and wolves can freely interbreed and produce fertile offspring--even little dogs like Westies and Chihuahuas are capable of this. Now everyone go look at your dog's teeth. You'll notice that their mouth is full of large, sharp pointy teeth. See how none of their teeth are flat? They are all designed to rip, tear, and scissor their food. The canine digestive system is comprised of a smooth unsacculated colon and a short small intestine. Canines do not normally produce the necessary enzymes to digest starch, cellulose (encases nutrients in plant matter), and carbohydrates. In order for these items to digest, they must spend some time in the digestive system fermenting, the canine digestive system is simply too short for this to happen. So what does this all mean? Based on the above scientific facts, a domestic dog is naturally designed to eat and digest meat food sources. Their teeth rip, tear and crush through meat and bones, their digestive systems are designed to digest meat, and years of evolution have resulted in an animal almost genetically identical to the modern Gray Wolf (exclusively a carnivore). No go over to your "super premium" bag of kibble. What do you see? Claims of healthy 'human grade' meat sources, fresh vegetables? What about all those OTHER ingredients? Rice, wheat, corn..... Well, I've already shown you that scientifically dogs cannot digest these. So why are they IN there??? Because they are cheaper filler than meat. What about home cooked diets, those are healthy too, right? Wrong. Cooking alters the minerals, vitamins, proteins and fats in meat. Your dog has a greater chance of suffering from a deficiency on a home cooked diet than any other diet. Besides, if you don't cook the meat, you don't have to spend more $$ on supplements that must be added back in. As long as meat AND bones AND organs are fed, you have a completely balanced canine diet. Just ask the Wolves! So here's my challenge to you. Put away your kibble, supplements and veggies. Feed your dog a diet of raw meat, bones and organs for JUST TWO MONTHS. Challenge the kibble company's claim of "healthy 'human grade' meat sources, fresh vegetables", why not just feed those food sources yourself. Why must we render, overcook, and overprocess these food items before we can feed them to our dogs? I can guarantee that the majority of you will see a significant decrease in the ailments listed at the very beginning of my post. Your dogs will be healthier, happier and more energetic than you've ever seen. You'll be able to do away with putting your dogs under anesthesia for teeth cleaning, raw fed dogs have the benefit of Nature's Toothbrush. Did you know that more than 85% of kibble fed dogs have periodontal disease by the age of 3? [Penman, S. and P. Emily. 1991. Scaling, Polishing, and Dental Home Care. Waltham International Focus. 1:3 2-8.] If you cannot let go of feeding veggies, make them a small part of the diet and puree them into a liquid. Remember, dogs cannot digest cellulose, and unless it is pureed they will not derive any nutrition from veggies. Anyone willing to take my challenge? Edited July 27, 2005 by GreatDanz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabrador Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Can I ask why raw, pulverised veges are not to be fed but just meat? Are you saying that the BARF type diets of raw meaty bones and some meals of raw veges are wrong? I agree with so much of what you are saying - but I am curious to know the full story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatDanz Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 It's not WRONG per say, but not necessary. Naturally, dogs have no way to pulverize their own veggies, humans can with their flat molars and grinding motion of their jaw. Not only do dogs not have flat molars, but they can only move their jaws up and down, not side to side. Does that answer your question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 What you have written seems to make sense, however... All the documentaries that I have watched on wolves, shows them eating the stomach and intestines of their prey first... As they usually choose herbivores as prey, it would be safe to assume that they are eating vegetation in the stomachs of their prey (and as the vegetation is in the stomach, would it also be safe to assume that it is partially digested (cooked)??? I have a stafford that has a genetic problem in which he cannot eat a diet high in protein or he forms oxalate kidney and bladder stones, so I guess I will not be taking up your challenge at this time... It will be interesting to see what results people have with their dogs if they follow this idea... For those that take up the challenge, I hope you post any changes here so we can all see them. Cheers Jodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 So you're saying that carnivores don't eat the stomach and contents of their vegetarian prey thereby eating vegies that have been pulverised and partly digested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatDanz Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 Wolves do not eat the stomach contents of their prey. With small mammals such as rabbits they might, but that is only becuase it's not worth the effort of trying to remove the contents. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov20...87753.Zo.r.html http://www.dogaware.com/wolfpark.html http://www.kerwoodwolf.com/HUNTING&MEALS.htm http://onibasu.com/archives/cl/86.html Raw diets are generally much lower in protein than kibble. For example, here is the nutrition information for a chicken back with skin: Water g 58.1 24 0.82 Energy kcal 319 0 0 Energy kj 1335 0 0 Protein g 14.05 24 0.19 Total lipid (fat)g 28.74 24 0.75 Ash g 0.64 24 0.03 Carbohydrate, by difference g 0 0 0 Fiber, total dietary g 0 0 0 Sugars, total g 0 0 0 The first number is value per 100 grams of edible portion, the second is number of data points, and the last is the standard error value. A chicken back is 14.05% protein, which means that per 100 grams, 14.05 grams are protein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Dogs are on raw - still have some of the above problems... diet is grand but its not a cure all genetics is genetics and some problems such as allergies have their genetic component too.... Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatDanz Posted July 28, 2005 Author Share Posted July 28, 2005 Dan, do you feed your dogs raw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 (edited) Sure do.... But I also happen to have two dogs with severe allergies (one with food and atopic and one with atopic, contact and chemical / preservative sensitivities)... Obviously the raw diet is great and helps them stay healthy... IMO its the easiest way to feed dogs and keep them in good weight / shape and let them feel like they are getting a good feed... Asher's chemical / preservative sensitivites are obviously helped by raw feeding as he gets none in his food... but the atopy, food and contact allergies are only helped through them having a good, healthy system from the diet... If they get something they are allergic to it will still effect them... Which is when things like the staph infections start.... You need to treat the allergies to look at dealing with this... I would NEVER feed my dogs kibble... but I also know that raw is not a miracle cure that will fix all their health concerns.... Dan Edited July 28, 2005 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhoundangel Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 I always believe firmly in feeding the best diet that works for 'your' dog... Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirra_Bomber_Zeus Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Dan I feed both my dogs raw too and although it has lessened Kirras allergy problems significantly - and I would never feed anything else again - she does still have some allergies! Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatDanz Posted July 28, 2005 Author Share Posted July 28, 2005 Sure do.... But I also happen to have two dogs with severe allergies (one with food and atopic and one with atopic, contact and chemical / preservative sensitivities)...Obviously the raw diet is great and helps them stay healthy... IMO its the easiest way to feed dogs and keep them in good weight / shape and let them feel like they are getting a good feed... Asher's chemical / preservative sensitivites are obviously helped by raw feeding as he gets none in his food... but the atopy, food and contact allergies are only helped through them having a good, healthy system from the diet... If they get something they are allergic to it will still effect them... Which is when things like the staph infections start.... You need to treat the allergies to look at dealing with this... I would NEVER feed my dogs kibble... but I also know that raw is not a miracle cure that will fix all their health concerns.... Dan Yup, you got it. The raw diet will assist in improving their immune systems, and in turn, there will be a signifiant decrease in ailments such as allergies. "Obviously the raw diet is great and helps them stay healthy... IMO its the easiest way to feed dogs and keep them in good weight / shape and let them feel like they are getting a good feed... " I agree 100% "I would NEVER feed my dogs kibble... That's WONDERFUL! "but I also know that raw is not a miracle cure that will fix all their health concerns.... PHEW, it's a good thing I never said that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilypily Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Well I must have 3 very strange dogs. None of them will eat raw meat of anykind. They give it a quick sniff and look at me as if to say Ewwwww. I tried things like chicken wings and mince when they were pups, so it's not a case of being used to commercial 'store bought' food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 (edited) Lily sometimes they need a bit of help... try searing the meat on the outside (not cooking - just enough to get the smell out)... this seems to help somedogs make the transition... it needs to be made enticing for some dogs! I agree with greyhoundangel - what ever works for the dog and its condition... there is at least one person on here who's dog with allergies did worse on raw than on kibble... if it doesn't work for an individual it doesn't work... My dogs think it is a small slice of heaven Dan Edited July 28, 2005 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 All the documentaries that I have watched on wolves, shows them eating the stomach and intestines of their prey first... They do tend to eat the internal organs and large meaty sections such as the rump first, and while they will eat the stomach itself and the intestines, they generally shake most of the contents out. I saw this myself when working with wolves in the US. This was also confirmed by David Mech (considered the highest authority on wolf behaviour) last year when he conducted a seminar on the diet and feeding habits of the wolf from birth to death (as organised by a friend of mine in the US). He was particularly asked to clarify this point and stated equivocally that wolves avoided eating the stomach contents. Doesnt mean a few veggies every now and then are going to do any harm though! I simply wouldnt be concentrating too much effort on that part of the diet, but rather concetrating on other factors. My own dogs (as many of you may remember - I have spoken enough about raw diets and what I feed here ) get veggies and other healthy leftovers whenever I happen to have them or when I am getting rid of stuff in the fridge but I never really go out of my way to make special veggie meals and havent done so for many years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Shepherd mom Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 If dogs don't eat vegetable matter of any kind in the wild, then why do our dogs eat grass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 I never said they don't eat vegetable matter of any kind - just that they only eat a very small proportion as part of their diet and usually not on purpose for reasons of sustenance, but as a consequence of other things they are eating (they are not, for example, going to remove the contents of the stomach of smaller prey such as rabbit as they generally eat them relatively whole wheras the stomach and intestines of large ungulates is generally shaken out before eating. they will still get some vegetable matter clinging to them, but the largest proportion is left on the ground (I know because I have nearly stepped on it more than once ) As for eating grass, most suggest it is a form of self medication. Sometimes it is used to assist with vomiting, for example, and sometimes it passes through to assist in 'cleanout'. I once saw a dog who was insistent and determined to eat grass later pass the grass as a clump along with a number of tapeworms. There is a book called 'Wild Health' that deals with the issue of self-medication among animals that you may find interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prydenjoy Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Hi GreatDanz It's true that different things work for different dogs, however I have found that most dogs do best with at least some veggies in their diet. I was on the meat bone and offal diet for some months... well my dogs were at least I found that when I gave them veggies again their coat improved, as did their energy etc. If you think about it, humans probably started off eating a bit of meat here and there and a few veggies, possibly grasses/seeds/berry's etc, however, that doesn't mean that herbs etc don't enhance our health. Sure, we CAN live without them, but they can still work wonders. The more variety of things we get the better, and it is probably the same with our dogs. As long as we do not make a significant part of their diet, more than 20% - 30%, vegetable matter than they can receive the health benefits without missing out from all the valuable nutrients etc from veggies. My my 2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Hark, is that the voice of reason i hear? I think you are preaching to the choir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 But dogs are not wolves. Wild dogs do not form big packs and go off hunting large animals. They live on their own or in small groups and feed off our waste. They do not have the motor skills to capture enough prey to survive on. Why do people always start off raw food comments with 'well the wolf...' ? We don't base our diets on what apes eat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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