MonElite Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 New question. Dogs learn most in the drive initialisation. lets imagine the dog is in defence drive initialisation and we issue a recall comand that the dog completes, than receives a reward. What has the dog learned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 K9: very hard to give an answer to a hypothetical situation. What is the trigger, what is the trigger doing? Why is the dog in defence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Trigger - person/dog walking by. dog alert watching the person walk by in the distance, hackles up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 K9: the dog would already need rto have been trained using the drive techniques. You recall the dog with the command that the dog thinks will earn the prey item. The dog recalls you give the prey item. The dog learns leaving the defence trigger after a recall command will earn prey item... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 so it isnt a completly bad thing if this happens? and the dog does reinforce the recall? If dog on a long line and you needed to give it a reminder by a slight pull? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 K9: I wouldnt be doing it on a long line, I wouldnt be doing it if the dog needs a reminder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 is it bad, that was my real question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 (edited) K9: I cant tell you the outcome, I wasnt there... It isnt the ideal way to train.... There is a lot of room for error. Like the other scenario, I try & put together programs to take the guess work out, when you experiment, you put the guess work back in & you may get results that vary from excellent - undesireable.. Edited October 9, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 K9: I think what were getting at is, you dont leave the training round with a declaration, just like every time you speed in your car a fine dont appear... :D :D ;) .... now I think you understand where I was comming from. my only problem was that half the rangers/coppers/etc...would use any excuse to come around for a cuppa! so I HAD to be Ms "prim & proper!" BTW I only said the "magic word" once (years after training) and I had him on lead at the time, he remembered it, & saved me from a very nasty situation (walking at night) after that particular incident, he would automatically "assume the position" just waiting for the word when a threat made itself known & thank goodness I never had to use it again & thank goodness I never had to take it further & release him from the lead (phew!) his stance & warning glare seemed to be as effective in a non-working encounter to those that tried. people would laugh as they thought they knew Daims...and declared that he was so sooky la-la that he'd lick someone to death, rather than step into protective drive...until they saw him in a REAL threat scenario....after that they agree with what I told them, he'll never start it, but if lines are drawn & hints/warnings aren't acknowledged & respected..he'll finish it. He was one very loyal & very patient companion, but if I was in real danger....he responded to breed type. The point is....you can get away (sometimes) with speeding on the odd occasion, but if you do it regularily, or obviously in a public setting, your odds of getting away with it are rapidly diminishing Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 the situation was I was training in drive on the golf course. Didnt see anyone but obviously there were people about, a guy walked by in a fair distance my puppy stopped and stiffen up watching him, hackles up growl. as she was on line I called her and gave a bit of a tug and rewarded with the ball wich she took and immiediatelly droped, she still watched the guy but no hackles and no growling so I moved away and called her again she came happy got the ball and decided the fun with me is better than watching the guy. As she was in the defence drive initialisation I was thinking about what is she learning and how to utilise the drive she is in, not that I want to do it, jsut at the time. Although I attempt to set up situation I can not control everything at all times and this is a prime example of what is out of my control at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 K9": what you did was good, there is no doubt about that... We cant always control every aspect of life.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 basically she stopped being interested in the ball (went out of prey drive and gone into defence drive) as she was in initialisation I thought she must be learning now so lets use it to my advantage. hence the question was can another drive be used to train, its undesireable but if it happends rather than ignoring it can it be used. No Im not planning to put her in defence on purpose to train her recalls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Then let the dog solve the problem, jumping on me wont solve it, following the command will...Dogs can be quite smart when they are allowed to think for themselves... have to agree with this 100% ...& it's hilarious to watch some of the lateral solutions they come up with in testing out what works & what doesn't!!! I've been away from here for a while (due to studies) but thought you all might like an update on how Zillah's going...he's a very different dog from when I first got him (2 or so months ago)..but still a long way to go! like K9 force says...he's learning by testing what works & what doesn't..ie: a demanding bark, or jump on the window will not get him inside, but a soft wuff will he knows it, because he always ends up giving the correct response, but he's still testing what he can get away with! hahaha (dobe families will understand what I'm saying) typical teenage dobe that he is...he'll test every boundary that you set & you'd better be consistant in your response, because give a dobe an inch & they'll take a mile! ;) although I haven't had alot of time spare at the moment (final essays & swatting for exams) Zillah is now consistently heeling on lead (4 training sessions), ignoring most distractions, sit stays good....drop stays pretty good, but still need more work (only time he doesn't break is when food is on offer), recall improving but inconsistant when the pup next door is yapping behind the fence! ...so as soon as exams are over, we are going to do some solid recall training (can't wait until the day I can let him off lead outside the back yard!.....race track runs here we come!! ) he also learned on Sunday that even though he already knows that bones are not allowed inside....if mum & dad are distracted by something like the final 5 mins of bathurst...then a bone can be snuck inside, but when mum & dad spot it I have to take it back out ASAP!...doesn't stop him from trying to do nonchalent walk by's to see if we're watching & he even attempted the drop it at the door, then go back later & try to sneek it in backwards!! :D (bummer, that one didn't work either! spotted!!) hehehhehe...Daim's taught me NEVER to underestimate the ingenuity of a Dobermann! Dobes aren't just smart when they're allowed to think for themselves.....they're downright cunning! ....but harnessing that drive/cunningness makes them pretty easy, ...well relatively easy to train as long as you remain more intelligent than they are ....which is an on-going test of wits for quite a number of years in my experience. Just when you think you've got 'em licked....they'll push the envelope! if you're prepared for that..then they're like putty in your hands until you relax your guard! :D but they're so adorable, you can't help but love 'em! Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I dont remove the reward at all? I said move the ball higher, not get intermitant with the reward. Ok now I get what you are saying. I like to use a saying, make it the dogs problem & it will solve it.I would have put this Lab into high food drive, then make it the dogs problems to get the food, I would help by offering a hint (command). That was the problem she was thinking too much, at a million miles an hour, I needed her to be calm, she was learning a new training concept as well as a new behaviour. She was in too much of a frenzy to think clearly and take the hint, as she had no idea what I wanted. She had been taught that the food didn't need to be present to get the reward/drive satisfaction as it would come eventually, from somewhere, so I had to feed her before training also to reduce her drive. When I reduced her motivation she became calmer and learnt MUCH quicker, not saying this was always the case, when teaching her something but for this "trick" and concept to be grasped she showed me that what I did, was the way to go with this dog. The other dogs I did this with it wasn't an issue as they didn't have her drive. cheers M-J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Bump....just cuz I refer friends to this thread and I'd like to keep it easy to find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 I apologise if this has already been asked in this thread, but is there a trick to building up interest in toys outside of the house? My boy is a huuuuge fan of his toys inside the house and I've managed to get him interested in them in the driveway to an extent, but the second we step out into the street he completely switches off. This has always been an issue and clicker training failed for similar reasons (0 food drive). I want to perservere with the toys though as even doing training in the house seems to have boosted his confidence, obedience and focus which is exactly what he needs. He seems to switch to largely defense with a little bit of prey outside, whereas in the house he's almost all prey and pack so he's very easy to work with then. So is there something I can do or is is just a case of depriving him of toys and building it up 3 mins/3 times a day and hoping that it'll affect him all the time? I'll have to attend a K9 Force session one of these days, it's just a matter of being available and cashed up at the right time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 19, 2006 Author Share Posted December 19, 2006 (edited) K9: dogs with nerve or socialisation problems will have problems going into an positive drive, such as prey, food, pack, play etc as survival often outweighs them... Some more bonding, switch off playing with toys at home now, only play with them in the park & see if the absense of play a home inspires your dog to experiment & go into prey drive.. There is a whole drive building stage, teaching focus & communication tha is part of my program that helps with all of these problems... Edited December 19, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 sasjeep are you reading? This last two posts would be related to you IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 K9: dogs with nerve or socialisation problems will have problems going into an positive drive, such as prey, food, pack, play etc as survival often outweighs them...Some more bonding, switch off playing with toys at home now, only play with them in the park & see if the absense of play a home inspires your dog to experiment & go into prey drive.. There is a whole drive building stage, teaching focus & communication tha is part of my program that helps with all of these problems... Thanks K9, that makes a lot of sense I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but next time you're in Victoria for a seminar I'll come along...just hope nothing comes up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 I was reminded today, after receiving a Volume, of Journal of Veterinary Behavior, that you have to be careful of what is typed on the web. This particular thread was the current issue's Editorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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