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pampa

Maybe Not Rat Bait ?

199 posts in this topic

Oh Pampa, i cant believe this is still happening after 3 weeks!! Im glad your taking her in earlier to get blood tests. Still thinking of you and will pop in again later.

Goodluck

Gottalovealab

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Erny   

Pampa .... :cheer: - thinking of you. Presume you had the bloods done today? When will you have the results?

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sidoney   

Hi I can't really offer constructive advice but I will offer my support like everyone else ... I soooooo wish for you all that she will get better, I can't imagine what this must be like for you.

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pampa   

Dogbesotted, I recieved your precious PM and are printing some of the info off for my vet. They don't seem to have much comprehensive info here. Thank you so much for taking the time to corrolate the info and give your expertise AGAIN.

My dog is not on any other medication so it would appear that IMT can be ruled out :cheer:

Yes Erny, we have just got back from the vets. We have taken blood and we will have the results on Thursday. My vet is really stumped and needless to say, quite worried because whereby dogs showing external bruising as she is, normally show other symptoms too such as lethargia, anaemia, refusal to eat, blood in urine and stools and quite often, nose bleeds, my girl is showing NO OTHER SYMPTOM WHATSOEVER and even the rather big cut on her foot is not bleeding more than any cut on any "normal" dog. It is really weird and totally illogical. If her blood wasn't coagulating correctly, the cut on her foot would bleed profusely and without ceasing, whereby it only weeps when she runs on it.

My vet only asked for 2 x 2 seperate tests to be done on the blood drawn today, the problem is that there are over seventeen different possible "problems" related to the immune system and to the supression of platelets which indirectly causes the bruising, that can be tested for and any combination of these seventeen elements can cause the bruising she is showing... We obviously can't test for the indefinate number of things it may or may not be :cheer: . (please excuse my very simplistic explanations, I don't know enough about this to give any detailed info.

Anyway, depending on the results, we may have to undertake a marrow test which would mean taking cells out of her bone marrow under a general anaesthetic. The poor sweetie.

I guess if we take the marrow, we will be testing for the "C" word :thumbsup:

The vet is now wondering if she was in fact poisoned by rat bait because logically, if she didn't die in the first week, the symptoms should have gone by now.

Thank you all again for your concern.

Anyway, enough ramble for now, I'll post again soon.

Edited by pampa

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Oh geez, I do hope the vet can get to the bottom of this. Sending the best of Darwinian vibes to you, Pampa.

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gemibabe   

Oh my gosh Pampa :thumbsup: I've only just seen this thread. What a traumatic time for you :cheer:

Are there any side affects with too much Vit K I wonder?

Sending good vibes your way. Wish I could do more to help :cheer:

Kylie

x

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Labsmum   

Sending you and doggy some white light. I'm sorry I do not know doggys name or if it is a he or a she but feel it has a very strong spirit. Please tell us name, gender and breed again if I missed something. I sent you an email pampa. Will be thinking of you both in this difficult time.

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Pampas,

Check this out: drug allergies and reaction. Right down the bottom of the list it mentions Vitamin K ( poisoning or overdose) causing purpura which is the bruising ( petechiae are small purpura are larger).

http://www.labbies.com/drugallergies.htm

I dont really think this is relevant but worth noting I guess.

I assume that your dog is on Vitamin K1(Phytonadione) as Vit K3 is not effective against rodenticide poisonings.

also modern rodenticides remain in the body for up to six months so Vit K should be continued for six months

"Anticoagulant rodenticides (Vitamin D3, brodifacoum [d-Con® Mouse Pruff II, Enforcer® Mouse Kill, Havoc® Klerat®,Ratak Plus®, Talon®, Volid®], bromethalin[bromathone®, Contrac®, Hot Shot® Sudden Death®; Ratimus®, Tamogen®11, warfarine [d-Con®]) Vomiting, abdominal pain, bloody stool, lethargy. If ingestion has occured less thn 12 hours you may induce vomiting; give activated charcoal slurry. Follow-up care: Vitamin K treatment by veterinarian. The new generation of rotenticides can persist in the body for up to six months, as the liver keeps changing them to another form of antioagulant, therefore treatment should continue for at least six months" from

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0175.htm

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pampa   

Wow Dogbesotted, that is really interesting... My vet told me that there is absolutely no possibility of overdosing on vitamin K1, but that WAS the day I noticed the problem and I guess his reasoning was "overdose possibility" compared to "rat bait poisoning" :cry: I will bring it up with him on Thursday...

I have an appointment with Frances' leading canine behavioural specialist on Saturday (for a totally unrelated issue) who, by chance is a renowned canine dermatologist also. She rang me yesterday to confirm our appointment and I told her of the problem we have here. She asked me to take the blood results with me so she can establish whether is may "simply" be a skin related problem as my girl is showing no other signs of illness at all...

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Great that you have an expert available now. Keeping fingers crossed for a simple explanation.

I dont really think it is Vit K toxicity..but was amazed to discover that info. Good to tuck away for future reference.

when my boy Morris had thrombocytompenia..they initially thought it may have been rat bait and tested his blood coagulating time. apparently that was in the normal range. so the vet suspected Thrombocytopenia so blood was driven ( by me) to the lab on the saturday. The needle prick where they took his blood from would not stop bleeding and he developed a haematoma the size of a medicine ball ..it was scary. he had his first blood transfusion that night. Morris was an acute case and I could see him deterioriate by the minute. It is possible for the thrombocytopenia not to be severe or acute...in which case other symptoms may not be present.

I am keeping you in my thoughts.

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pampa   

Wow DBS, poor Morris, poor you... It must have been very traumatising.

The vet was worried that my girl would bleed or bruise from yesterdays blood-drawing so they bandaged the site a bit more firmly than they normally would, which I removed an hour after getting home, as per instruction... There was only a teeny-weeny spot of blood on the cotton swab and this morning there is only a really small bruise where the needle went in... She did however scratch behind her ear last night which has led to a big purple blotch on her head... All very puzzling :cry:

I religiously read the threads you PM'ed me which were very interesting but I think I can rule out any tick related illnesses as it is winter here (4 inches of snow today :cry: ) and due to the cold, I haven't seen a tick since November. On top of that, my kids are regularly treated against external parasites with Frontline which repels / impeaches the ticks from biting in the first place, as oposed to other treatments that kill the parasite only AFTER biting the animal.

I hope the Dr Monique BOURDIN will be able to help shed some light on Saturday.

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Erny   
I dont really think it is Vit K toxicity..but was amazed to discover that info. Good to tuck away for future reference.

Dogbesotted - it amazes me how you seem to know how to look up this information to begin with. In otherwords, how you even think to know what "condition" to look for.

I am in awe of your breadth of knowledge in relation to these things. :cry:

Pampa .... I'll 'speak' to you on Monday. In the meantime, more warm feelings for some sign of recovery for your girl. Was thinking about her again earlier today.

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Wishing you all the best for your dog's recovery, seems you've been dealt a tough hand with this one, just to let you know you're in my thoughts and sending special good vibes.

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Dogbesotted - it amazes me how you seem to know how to look up this information to begin with. In otherwords, how you even think to know what "condition" to look for.

I am in awe of your breadth of knowledge in relation to these things. :cry:

How embarassing! :cry: I have only picked up some smidgen of knowledge through bitter experience. Morris and Miss Sophie both ate rat bait twice! Morris had thrombocytompenia, bladder stones ( thanks to the predenisolone for the thrombocytopenia) and then developed lymphoma. Miss Sophie lived with joint problems and brain damage for her 11.5 years. Jake had typical pitbull allergies which were a constant battle, squamous cell carcinoma of the prepuce, and finally Dilated Cardio Myopathy, Casper was classic hypothyroid, Lucinda has Mast Cell tumour and earlier had uterine cysts. Oscar had a bowel blockage from eating stones and has some prostate enlargement- about to use suprelorin implants to treat that. Keeping my fingers crossed that the others have simple and uneventful health futures LOL. One of the "joys" of having so many dogs is that I think I have kept my vet in business.

I have found it helps to join specific canine health lists - esp for the immune problems etc. Its a great start for searching out information and sharing ideas etc.

I have two great vets who are extremely patient and take time to explain in detail whatever is going on.

Cheers

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pampa   

Modesty will get you nowhere DBS, we know that the "smidgen" of knowledge you claim to have is absolutely worth its weight in gold :( Your dogs certainly have put you through the mills and I hope it calms down somewhat in the future, but I imagine your vet loves you :D

I'v got part of the blood test results back from the vets... In fact, the tests were screwed up because the Laboratory forgot to tell my vet that the blood needed to be frozen for 24 hours prior to being transported and the laboratory hadn't sent a special container to keep the serum frozen during delivery...

SO, for the moment we only have one analysis back which shows that my girl doesn't have nearly enough platelets and that she is apparently not manufacturing them fast enough. In the links DBS posted there seem to be many reasons as to why she may be lacking platelets, now we just have to narrow down which cause relates to my girl...

We are going in on Monday to draw more blood for the "frozen" blood test...

To be continued...

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ReXy   

pampa i am always thinking of u u poor thing how long does this have to go on for... this is just awfulll that rotton bloody stuff just so lucky u got to the vet in time tho, some one told me that it is not that deadly and that the dog would just be sick for a short time i have since re educated them and told them of all the troubles some have had... and to think your boy may of only had a small amount is there any way of telling how much he had to cause this much damage?

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suezija   

I've just come onto this thread and send thought and prayers for your furkid.

I do understand what you are going through as my husband bought some Talon and put it under the floorboards of our house (an old Queenslander), somehow one of the packets was dislodged and garbageguts found it. The only reason we didn't lose him is because the next day (Sunday) found bright green poo and knew straight away what it was.

I called the poison hot line and got a very helpful woman who found out what she could and so began a hunt around south east Queensland looking for a chemist with vitK1. Plenty of them had vit K3.

Threw those in to him after weighing him and then called the vet for a blood clotting test. Didn't pass, even though at this stage it was probably only 12-14 hours since he ingested the pellets.

He went onto vitK1 for ten weeks and we tested the clotting time every two weeks.

I also used Swedish Bitters to help build up his blood. I cooked him up "stews" of liver and pasta and soaked his dried food in it so as not to caused any bleeding in the mouth, oesophegus and stomach.

He totally recovered and has had no ill effects since then.

It is very scary and each time he failed a blood test it was very worrying.

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pampa   
He went onto vitK1 for ten weeks and we tested the clotting time every two weeks.

I also used Swedish Bitters to help build up his blood. I cooked him up "stews" of liver and pasta and soaked his dried food in it so as not to caused any bleeding in the mouth, oesophegus and stomach.

He totally recovered and has had no ill effects since then.

It is very scary and each time he failed a blood test it was very worrying.

Wow, suezija, this too is really interesting information... You say he needed 10 WEEKS treatment !

My vet is amazed that she still has bruising after 25 days :)

Goodness, 10 weeks of vitK1 must have cost you a fortune :(

Maybe my girl simply needs longer to recover :D I'll try to get some more info on that...

Thanks for your post.

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