Itchy Puppy

[persephone]

I use CALCIUM ascorbate powder (dogs and hoomans)...just mix in food...in several small doses. It has a slight bitter taste, but is well accepted:)

[babushka]

poor little pup...

do they think that the vomitting and itchiness are related?

Luca (groenendael) has also had itchy skin all her life (she's nearly 6) - basically from the day I brought her home - it got really bad a couple of years ago - exactly as you are describing - esp on the backs of her back legs, armpits, and esp under the chin, to the point of it becomming infected with all the constant scratching and biting - she also gets an itchy vaginal area sometimes, but not sure if this is related

We have tried all sorts of things - currently she is pretty good - the only thing she still does all the time is rub the under-side of her chin - on anything from your knee if you are sitting down, to furniture and even the door frames... ultimately i think what has helped her the most is lots of swims in the ocean, and her diet, which is now no red meat (apart from the occasional bone), high quality dry bikkies (skin and digest blend), + supplements including calcium ascorbate, fish (tinned sardines at least once a week), fish and olive oils over her food, yoghurt, and 1/2 cortesone tab for a few days if it flares up, as well as aloe vera and inflamol directly when nec...

would be interested to hear if the phenergan helps - haven't heard of this being used before

It is going to be a long process I feel, and am sorry for your poor little pup, as well as you - it is so hard to watch them - I am constantly telling her to stop chewing on her feet, or scratching etc - i think it becomes habitual as well...

IMHO, I don't know that it is an environmental thing, as we have lived in different areas, some with grasses, some without, but I do think that the sea and sea air has really helped - I have heard of other belgians with the same problem - but not saying all will have it of course...

good luck

[spikey]

Thanks for your post Babushka, good (well, not really, it's no fun having an itchy dog!) to hear from someone else with an itchy Belgian! The breeder has told me she has never heard of any Belgians with allergies / itchy skin. The vets never said anything about the itchiness and the vomiting being related. Glad to hear that your girl seems to be doing OK at the moment - I feel so sorry for poor little Rex, I also have to keep telling him to stop scratching all the time! Only problem is, once his stitches are out and we are both back at work fulltime (my BF and I are each taking time off work this week to look after him while he recovers), there will be no one there to stop him from scratching. I was giving Rex fish oil capsules prior to his illness, so once I'm sure his tummy is OK, I will start giving them to him again.

We live near the ocean here in Perth too, so maybe I should take Rex down for his first swim! Having said that, I was worried that the sand / salt etc might dry his skin out and make things worse? I always completely rinsed my dogs off after having them at the beach but you know what it's like trying to get everything out of those long coats!

He is on Hills Science Diet biscuits - the problem is the biscuits for sensitive skins etc are not made for puppies and I'm worried about giving him an adult blend during this critical growth stage. He also doesn't get red meat except for (very) occasional bones. I will ask the vet for advice before using Phenergan or another antihistamine, so I can (a) make sure it's safe and (b) find out the correct dosage. I will have to give the calcium ascorbate a try, as several people have recommended it. And I assume you would just given them plaint yoghurt? I use Neocort cream on the really bad areas (usually under his armpits) and aloe vera gel on other places that are itchy but not yet red/inflamed.

How often do you wash Luca and what shampoo do you use?

[Shoelace]

Spikey

I've PM'd you.

[babushka]

>>>once his stitches are out and we are both back at work fulltime (my BF and I are each taking time off work this week to look after him while he recovers), there will be no one there to stop him from scratching.<<<

you may have to get him looked after maybe if he is still really bad - he could do a lot of damage scratching all day

>>>And I assume you would just given them plaint yoghurt?<<<

yep, just plain - she has two or three spoonfuls with me every morning - i have no idea if it helps, but she has been having it for a long time now...

>>>How often do you wash Luca and what shampoo do you use? <<<

She hops in the shower with me (!) just for a rinse after swimming at the beach, and i wash her with Derma Care Aloveen Oatmeal Shampoo every couple of months - not too often

[spikey]

Had our appointment with the dermatologist (Sharon) at Murdoch today. It was such a relief to talk to someone who was so knowledgeable about itchy/allergy dogs after all the waffle I've had from various vets about the subject, especially with my GSD several years ago.

She said poor little Rex's itchies are most likely due to sarcoptes or demodex mites (did scrapings for both, no sign of either but sacroptes/scabies often don't show up from these scrapings), atopic allergies or possibly a food allergy. He is on Interceptor for the next 6 weeks to kill any scabies and is also on an elimination diet (Hills Z/D Ultra - hell, that stuff's EXPENSIVE!) with calcium supplement for 6 weeks. The only treats he can have is fruit, not something I've ever even tried him with, so that'll be interesting when it comes to our training sessions! Have to try all sorts of different fruit until I find something he likes. Any suggestions anyone?

He also has some bacterial infection in his "armpit" areas from where he has been scratching, so anti-bacterial cream twice a day and also use Neocort cream if he scratches and reddens those areas (sometimes he nearly breaks the skin). Have to wash him weekly with Episoothe and also have another "leave-on" lotion from the same range that can be used daily to soothe itchy areas.

Then we go back for a revisit in 4 weeks, and if no significant improvement, they will then look at intra-dermal testing. So, an expensive day **sigh** but at least they know what they are talking about and have given me some options to work with to try and sort out what is causing the itchiness.

Fingers crossed that we'll have some success!

[zayda_asher]

I am so glad you got to see the Derms! Sharon is our derm too, she's wonderful isn't she?

A lot of dogs like apple, anything nice and sweet... some like dried fruit like apricots. Mine love crainsins (dried cranberries). Becareful of grapes / sultanas /raisins as some dogs have a toxic reaction to these.

I'm not surprised he has the infection from the scratching... The Epi Soothe is really good and I'd say the lotion is the resichlor which I find bloody brilliant!! What is the infection? Yeast or Staph I would imagine... let me know which as I have some other herbal treatments for them too

They are expensive, but it is worth it totally!! I empathise with the expense... my two keep me nice and broke with their allergy treatments!!!

Take care and good luck

Dan

[Erny]

The only treats he can have is fruit, not something I've ever even tried him with, so that'll be interesting when it comes to our training sessions! Have to try all sorts of different fruit until I find something he likes. Any suggestions anyone?

Good on you for your efforts in working towards a solution for your pup.

When I adopted my girl, she wasn't particularly fussed/keen on vegetables and there was no way she'd eat them unless I mixed them with her meat.

Over time, it seems she has acquired a taste, because now I can give her vegies (crushed) on their own, or she even licks up the occasional spill when I'm preparing her food parcels.

Perhaps if you crush up the fruit (so there aren't any big pieces for your pup to easily pick out) and mix them with his main food (assuming he likes that) and an 'acquired' taste might develop for the fruit in the same way my girl's appetite for vegies developed?

Of course, you might also find your boy simply likes the fruit after first investigation.

Another way of encouraging them to like something they're not familiar with is to eat a piece of it first (with your pup watching), and then offer what's left. Make it a fun event. Good luck and hoping the skin allergies clear up soon. ;)

Edited April 10, 2006 by Erny

[Tassie]

On the fruit thing - my problem is stopping my Border Collies picking and eating their own! My boy picked, brought in and ate 3 apples in a row the other night. And I learnt to keep my fruit bowl out of dog reach after my previous BC boy would steal, peel and eat bananas.

The idea about sharing with your pup is a great way to start. Apples are good - maybe cut into thin slices or cubes. Bananas go down well (except they're not getting them at a gazillion dollars a kilo.) I guess you're just going to have to experiment - you'll get to eat lots of fruit. Even if pup spits the fruit out at first, keep trying - sometimes they just need to try for a bit longer.

Are you allowed to give vegetables? My dogs run to the kitchen when they hear me with carrots - they love them, as do a lot of dogs. Green peas are a hit too (mine eat them frozen or frozen/cooked). I wouldn't have thought of trying that until I saw a friend using them as training treats for her little German Spitz.

Good luck.

[babushka]

On the fruit thing - my problem is stopping my Border Collies picking and eating their own! My boy picked, brought in and ate 3 apples in a row the other night. And I learnt to keep my fruit bowl out of dog reach after my previous BC boy would steal, peel and eat bananas.

The idea about sharing with your pup is a great way to start. Apples are good - maybe cut into thin slices or cubes. Bananas go down well (except they're not getting them at a gazillion dollars a kilo.) I guess you're just going to have to experiment - you'll get to eat lots of fruit. Even if pup spits the fruit out at first, keep trying - sometimes they just need to try for a bit longer.

Are you allowed to give vegetables? My dogs run to the kitchen when they hear me with carrots - they love them, as do a lot of dogs. Green peas are a hit too (mine eat them frozen or frozen/cooked). I wouldn't have thought of trying that until I saw a friend using them as training treats for her little German Spitz.

Good luck.

yep - frozen peas are a hit with luca too - and corn

the other thing she LOVES is dried dates - not sure that these would be on your list tho, with the high sugar content...

[zayda_asher]

You have to be very careful with vegetables!!!

Corn, legumes (peas / beans), potato and grains are all tops on the allergies list for suspects... Any veg they have eaten in the past they cannot eat as they will need to be tested on it.

Run veg ideas past your dermatologist for clearance.

Dan

[spikey]

You have to be very careful with vegetables!!!

Corn, legumes (peas / beans), potato and grains are all tops on the allergies list for suspects... Any veg they have eaten in the past they cannot eat as they will need to be tested on it.

Run veg ideas past your dermatologist for clearance.

Dan

They actually said all vegetables are fine, except for corn and onion (which you wouldn't feed to a dog anyway because they can make them VERY sick). Rex actually hasn't eaten anything in the way of vegies because he's been on biscuits and raw chicken wings / necks, so hadn't given him any table scraps to date. I will be emailing Sharon today to ask her a couple of things, so will check about the vegies.

I tried Rex with strawberries and banana the other day - he loved both! Typical, he likes the most expensive fruit I will try him with apples and pears as well and also have some fresh pineapple. Just trying him with little bits to start with, don't want to upset his tummy.

[zayda_asher]

They actually said all vegetables are fine, except for corn and onion (which you wouldn't feed to a dog anyway because they can make them VERY sick). Rex actually hasn't eaten anything in the way of vegies because he's been on biscuits and raw chicken wings / necks, so hadn't given him any table scraps to date. I will be emailing Sharon today to ask her a couple of things, so will check about the vegies.

Ah, probably because he hasn't had them then, we fed veg so we had to test all of them and legumes are common allergens if exposed... The corn is a killer though.... My girl is allergic to it ;)

Try getting a pack of crainsins they are not to expensive and the dogs love them... look in the section where they have the dried fruits for cakes and stuff...

Dan

I forgot to say: May girl has throwing up episodes that seem to be related to her allergies. The corn allergy and her mould spore allergy make her hediously motion sick in the car and there are times where she just seems to digest badly and get the hurls when she is having a bad reaction....

[babushka]

so i won't be feeding luca corn anymore - thanks guys

Edited April 12, 2006 by babushka

[spikey]

Great idea about the craisins, Dan, I'll have to look for them!

I emailed Sharon with a few queries (she's great, I got a really comprehensive answer to all my questions almost straight away!), and she confirmed that vegies are fine except the corn, onion and potato as well. She also said to discontinue his fish oil capsules for the moment in case there is a fish component to his allergy. I would like to still keep some oil in his diet for his coat and skin - is something like olive oil OK, do you know?

She also suggested using something like dried venison treats and said most City Farmers stores stock them. Well, not exactly ... Balcatta store said "used to stock them as a promotional item, haven't had them for ages", 3 other stores had NO idea what I was talking about (one even asked "what's venison?") but finally tracked them down at the Joondalup store so had to take a hike up there after work today. I thought they might be better (and easier) to use in the show ring than fruit! Mind you, the craisins would probably work well too!

Tried Rex with apple today, he gobbled it down, so at least I'll have a few options for training sessions at home and at the park, so I can give the poor little bugger a bit of variety!

Interesting what you said about your girl's throwing up sessions with the allergies. Wonder if Rex's bout was caused by a similar thing?

The skin infection is a "moderate superficial bacterial infection" and am using Bactroban cream for 2-3 weeks - as well as all the other creams/lotions/etc!

[zayda_asher]

Yep, Sharon is great!!

The craisins work well and I am sure you could chop up dried apple as well... Another alternative is to get whatever meat you will be feeding as the novel protien: if its mince roll it into little balls and cook in the microwave, they go like meat balls and you just pull apart as you use. If it is in a steak form just boil it lightly til just cooked through and chop up... these are excellent treats, they love them!

Well Evening primrose is good for all the omega oils, and it is meant to be good for some skin itchies (my dogs don't seem to respond, but I know people who have had success with it) so I'd check with Sharon first, but that may be an option. Olive oil will keep the coat shiny, but wont help with the omegas. Avoid flax, many dogs get the itchies from it.

The throwing up sucks! It could quite possibly be the same for Rex.

Ah, we are on Bactroban atm too! Are you using the one you put in the mucus cavities (nose / mouth)? You could also try Pau D'Arco, its a "herbal antibiotic". I do first day 2 tabs morning and evening and then second day one tab morning. That has really worked for Asher with his Staph infections (until we had a really bad run recently...)...

Feel free to PM me if you want too... We are around the same area by the sounds of it, so if you are looking for treats etc. I might know some places that are good... Balcatta city farmers are normally good at ordering stuff too...

Dan

[spikey]

Hi Dan

Thanks for the info re oils. I might check with Sharon first to see what (if anything) I can give him that won't muck up the elimination diet trial!

The Bactroban we are using is a cream that I rub into the "armpit" area where he has the superficial bacterial infection, do this 2-3 times a day.

Unfortunately I'm not using a novel protein source at the moment - Rex is solely on the Hills z/d biscuits - Sharon wasn't happy about putting him on a home-cooked elimination diet as he is so young and it would be difficult to get the nutritional requirements correct given the restrictions of the diet. I was going to get some kangaroo to cook up and use for treats, but then remembered that Sharon had said the diet may need to be repeated at a later stage when Rex was older (as testing with young dogs sometimes gives false positive/negative results) and I would use the home-cooked diet then. If I used kangaroo this time, then I could not use it next time and it's the easiest novel protein to get hold of! Maybe I should try getting some camel/horse/donkey or something. Murdoch gave me a list of suppliers where I can get those, although none near here I don't think!

[zayda_asher]

Thanks for the info re oils. I might check with Sharon first to see what (if anything) I can give him that won't muck up the elimination diet trial!

Definitely check first, I'm not sure if they have any info on allergies and EPO. Hopefully you can work something out

The Bactroban we are using is a cream that I rub into the "armpit" area where he has the superficial bacterial infection, do this 2-3 times a day.

Well I am glad you are not having to do the up the nose thing!!

Unfortunately I'm not using a novel protein source at the moment - Rex is solely on the Hills z/d biscuits - Sharon wasn't happy about putting him on a home-cooked elimination diet as he is so young and it would be difficult to get the nutritional requirements correct given the restrictions of the diet.

Hmmm, interesting, from memory Z/D doesn't actually have much in it either (we had Zayda on it young too)... very hard for most dogs to put weight on with it. Zayda maxed out at 18 kilos until we could get her off the z/d, then she filled to her adult weight of 24 kilos - big difference! In the long term raw feeding or home cooked does make it easier with allergies, and once you have learnt nutrition is quite easy to manage. Check out Carina McDonald's Raw Dog Food. I can Also send you the link to her Yahoo group if you want. I know there is also a good home cooked yahoo group, which I could find out the name of for you.

as testing with young dogs sometimes gives false positive/negative results

Yup, it can do! Tricky for us that have dogs that manifest allergies so young... Zayda was about 4-5 months when we started the elimination diet and we waited until after 6 months and gave her the time to get over her spey surgery before we did the intradermal skin testing.

Maybe I should try getting some camel/horse/donkey or something. Murdoch gave me a list of suppliers where I can get those, although none near here I don't think!

That would be A & D Pet Foods out at midvale? I've got to go and get some camel again! Oxford Pet Supplies (414 Oxford St, Mt Hawthorn 9444 1220) sells goat and horse, I think you are North so that should be easier. Check with Sharon, but maybe you could use the horse or goat for treats and save the roo for the elimination diet.

Here's Zayda when she was on the Z/D (bottom thumbnail photos)... See how skinny she was Zayda also had generalised Demodex, and that combined with the allergies meant she lost a lot of fur, which grew back in white... The other two photos show the yeast infection on her chin and the patch on her head where she constantly scratched. It was winter, and she would get very cold as she was missing so much fur...

Good luck

Dan

Here's Zayda Now for comparison (you can still see the white regrowth on her tail and thighs):

Edited April 17, 2006 by zayda_asher

[spikey]

Well, Sharon said EPO would be fine, as well as safflower/sunflower oils. I went and bought some venison today so will be cooking that up to use for treats.

I'll see how Rex goes on the 6-week trial with the Hills Z/d, I certainly wouldn't be happy about keeping him on it for much longer than that, not at such a critical growth period in his life, so I would certainly need to look into the natural/ home-cooked type diet for the longer term if we can't pin down what's causing the itchies!

Poor Zayda, she did go through a rough time! She looks lovely now though, you've done a great job to get her looking so well - and that must have been a long hard road as well, as those of us with allergy dogs know only too well

[zayda_asher]

Well, Sharon said EPO would be fine, as well as safflower/sunflower oils. I went and bought some venison today so will be cooking that up to use for treats.

Great news

Zayda loved the venison when we got some, but I have to retest her on it as she had a reaction to something else at the same time and we couldn't tell what was from what!

I'll see how Rex goes on the 6-week trial with the Hills Z/d, I certainly wouldn't be happy about keeping him on it for much longer than that, not at such a critical growth period in his life, so I would certainly need to look into the natural/ home-cooked type diet for the longer term if we can't pin down what's causing the itchies!

No, its not good to keep them on for long if you can help it! Esp, as you say, when they are young... Its so hard, but worth it in the long run!!

Let me know if you want any of those group links for the other diets, if they have food allergies home prepared is great as you know exactly what they are getting and you can limit chemicals / preservatvies.

Poor Zayda, she did go through a rough time! She looks lovely now though, you've done a great job to get her looking so well - and that must have been a long hard road as well, as those of us with allergy dogs know only too well

Thank you, we are proud of her and we did have a very rough ride! This last 6 months has been hard though as both the dogs have been right off with this awful humid weather we have been having, Zayda started reacting by getting hives... First lot I came home and she was covered in golf ball sized lumps, looked like she'd developed an extra spine and other bones - really horrifying!! Well we are working on solving this issue now... With the return to cooler weather we have had no more hives, but a return in itchies... so I am starting to wonder if she is going to manifest different symptoms in the humid weather (seeing as how we normally don't have such weather here for such a prolonged period!)... We're off to see Sharon next Wednesday with both of them... Asher broke out in Staph with this weather too... Hopefully it will stay cool for a while and we can sort out some more things to put in place for the next bout of humidity!!

Its still a long hard road, and they trip you up just when you think everything is going like a well oiled machine, cheeky buggers!! But you gotta love 'em!!

Take care and keep us up dated!

Dan