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Triangle Of Temptation


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I was thinking specifically in the context of my latest battle which is teaching a UD directed retrieve. I taught Ness to watch me when her food was placed down and this inadvertently carried over to her DB retrieves where she looks up at me before I send her. Now we battle to get lock in and focus on the gloves because she thinks she needs to look at me before I send her. This is one situation where I want her looking at the glove and not at my face.

I was thinking about agility Ness, where I never want eye contact from my dog, other than the release from the start line. I am just thinking about starting to train Shine & want ZERO eye contact from her right from the start. With the little we have done, she is only being rewarded for forward focus, never for looking at me, so I am wondering if this would be at odds with the TOT program?

Could also apply the same idea to herding, but I don't think I will ever get any eye contact there from Trim :laugh: regardless of what I do. I have seen other dogs though whose checking in with their handlers is a problem & can even be a danger.

K9: I guess the problem is your trying to do it all with one program in its basic version, when really its a foundation program that yo build on..

I would need to arrange the steps to align it with your specific goals.

I have never had a situation in which checking in with me was anything but a sure way to keep the dog under my guidance..

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Like I said as far as the DB retrieve for obedience its not been of a particular concern. She is straight out and straight back with the article. But when you add extra possibilities into the retrieve equation that you have when you have the 3 gloves out its easy for them to forget.

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So far I haven't found eye contact to be a problem in my other areas of training, although we haven't really gotten far enough in agility and herding to know if it will in the future. I doubt there will be a problem in herding - Kaos is VERY keen and we are still working on a reliable Stop :laugh: I think it is more likely to be a problem in softer temperamented dogs.

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I haven't read this whole thread...only about half so far...but have a question. If you are training/competing in activities where you specifically Do NOT want your dog looking at you directly but rather peripherally, how would you go about following the program without encouraging direct eye contact? or would you be able to follow the program without it having an impact

during the activities where you don't want eye contact?

Hope this makes sense...I'm not quite sure how to phrase the question (and may well find the answer once I have read the whole thread)

K9: once the basic version of the program is installed, its quite easy to teach the dog only to check in with you throughout the excercise, not watch you all of the time...

Thanks, I think I understand. Could that checking in become peripheral rather than direct? and how would you go about making it so?

K9: It happens naturally & you can advance it by using a few hand signals or verbal commands depending on if you want more or less eye contact.

The program isnt designed to keep the dog looking at you, the first step is to look at you only, in fact when I want to train the attention I train it in two steps which is a step in training the dog the formal heel...

If I dont in a case have a need for the formal heel I dont train the attention step either.

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Like I said as far as the DB retrieve for obedience its not been of a particular concern. She is straight out and straight back with the article. But when you add extra possibilities into the retrieve equation that you have when you have the 3 gloves out its easy for them to forget.

K9: what do you use for a reward for the retrieve?

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Nope never do that but I do place food behind her when I do a change of positions and expect her to drop or sit or whenever I feel like rewarding her before I release her to the food.

We do the same with heeling. Food containers on the ground will heel with me and then I'll release her to them.

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I would need to arrange the steps to align it with your specific goals.

That makes sense. So it's possible with some modification. I understand that the eye contact is only part of the program & not it's purpose, but just wanted to make sure that fading it is achievable if your goals are different.

I have never had a situation in which checking in with me was anything but a sure way to keep the dog under my guidance..

I guess agility is a bit different. At the lower levels & for certain types of dogs, checking in is essential & for some the only way to achieve this is with direct eye contact. At the higher/very high levels, when you're running obstacles & the distance between them at nearly 6metres/sec, checking in is something to be avoided, there is simply no time & a glance from the dog for 1/20 seconds can mean the difference between the right & the wrong course/obstacle. There is also a new refusal rule where dogs can actually be penalised (depending on the judge :rolleyes:) for checking in with you. Unfortunately the faster you are going, the more likely you are to be penalised, since the motion of checking in is so much more obvious at that speed. It would be fair to say that most of the well handled dogs are run using verbal commands & peripheral recognition of physical cues.

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V: That makes sense. So it's possible with some modification. I understand that the eye contact is only part of the program & not it's purpose, but just wanted to make sure that fading it is achievable if your goals are different.

K9: Yes, the easiest thing you can get a frustrated & secured dog to do without guidance is look at you, so its the first step, teaching the dog that you have the answers to success, your not part of the problem stopping the dog achieving what it wants...

V: I guess agility is a bit different. At the lower levels & for certain types of dogs, checking in is essential & for some the only way to achieve this is with direct eye contact. At the higher/very high levels, when you're running obstacles & the distance between them at nearly 6metres/sec, checking in is something to be avoided, there is simply no time & a glance from the dog for 1/20 seconds can mean the difference between the right & the wrong course/obstacle. There is also a new refusal rule where dogs can actually be penalised (depending on the judge :rolleyes: ) for checking in with you. Unfortunately the faster you are going, the more likely you are to be penalised, since the motion of checking in is so much more obvious at that speed. It would be fair to say that most of the well handled dogs are run using verbal commands & peripheral recognition of physical cues.

K9: oK this is where the confusion is, I dont want or expect or teach the dog to look at me or for me in the middle of a know excercise, but look to me at the end, or if learning an excercise look to me for guidance.

This is what I mean by a foundation program.

Some dogs find AG very rewarding because "intrinsically", they are rewarded. This leaves them open to running the course the way they find it the most fun, giving us little control.

I use a reward system that makes AG fun too, in other words, as well, secondary to my reward, which is why I start all dogs on the TOT. I have the ultimate rewards & the dog looks to me after the excercise is complete to get the ultimate reward..

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Hi,

What would be the easiest way to calm a dog down when he sees you first thing in the morning and is very hyper active,

it happens one by one as each person gets up during the day (except my dad for some reason) so it happens about 3 times during the day and when we get back home from work he jumps all over the place too. not on us just around us,

how would we calm him down??? we just don't want him to jump all the time as he ios 15 months now and want him to be calm especially cause when he is older he will be harder to control

Do you watch the Dog Whisperer at all? if so, what do you think of him??

Cheerz,

Jayakita

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Hi,

What would be the easiest way to calm a dog down when he sees you first thing in the morning and is very hyper active,

it happens one by one as each person gets up during the day (except my dad for some reason) so it happens about 3 times during the day and when we get back home from work he jumps all over the place too. not on us just around us,

how would we calm him down??? we just don't want him to jump all the time as he ios 15 months now and want him to be calm especially cause when he is older he will be harder to control

Do you watch the Dog Whisperer at all? if so, what do you think of him??

Cheerz,

Jayakita

K9: I am sure your dad has ignored this hyper active behaviour & the others in the house havent, this is why the dog skips the behaviour as it has discoved that there will be no reward in it for the dog.

I would by all means prescribe the TOT, the people who are getting this reaction from the dog at one time or another should be part of it too.

You all need to learn to ignore behaviours that you dont like, & reward ones that you do....

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  • 2 weeks later...

when you are increasing the distance and you have the tie in your hands, is the tie attached to the dog :rofl: how do you stop the dog from getting to the food if you leave the food on the ground. im tired its probably obvious

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