Triangle Of Temptation

[Steve K9Pro]

K9, just wanted to say thanks so much for the program! We've been using it for only 3 weeks on our now 13 wk old Vizsla and have seen MASSIVE improvements!!

K9: Thanks for the kind words and I am glad its helping, it can be great fun with a new puppy.

Just wanted to ask some advice on whining and vocals. We have a very vocal pup (im sure they all can be) and saw that this can be a good program for a dog that whines. Once he's tied up he begins and settles down after a few minutes but has settled to a quite whine is this acceptable?

K9: Technically no, no whining is acceptable as it will likely build because it is being reinforced by the release to the food. However, sometimes the whining will also stop once you start moving more forward in the program and the dog knows what to do. Knowing what will buy the food most times stops the dog from becoming frustrated and the whining goes.

What I would do is release the moment you have even a break in the whining, this will hopefully expend that time further apart.

We've progressed to a sit/stay with the back tie off for 5-10 seconds with good eye contact but lately he has been backing away from the food, while in a sit, sometimes almost turning circles, while sitting, seemingly with excitement any clues to combat this, or if its ok. He isn't breaking the sit/stay to get food just a little crazy!

thanks again for the program, im amazed how well its worked on a puppy, was thinking it would take a lot longer to get where we are!

K9: You may have too much reward pressure on him and he is trying desperately to control himself ( ), so move the food a little further away and also reduce the time for now, 2 seconds of silence perhaps and release. Then when you have that solid increase the time.

He needs to increase the calm focus not the time just yet.

It works well because it means you have control of all resources / assets and the program ends in reward every time :D

[Kitteh]

Hi K9 :rolleyes:

We've been doing the TOT and the 9 week old bichon x, sits well and looks at me, but as soon as i say "YES!" he starts to pull, whine and basically go nuts.

Am i doing something wrong here? Any advice? TIA

[Steve K9Pro]

Hi K9

We've been doing the TOT and the 9 week old bichon x, sits well and looks at me, but as soon as i say "YES!" he starts to pull, whine and basically go nuts.

Am i doing something wrong here? Any advice? TIA

K9: It is a common problem when starting to use markers in training that the dog releases on any word it hears. Sometimes it can be helpful to use a slowly released marker like "gooooooood" rather than the abrupt "YES!".

Once the dog understands that the release command is "ok" stability comes back in.

[Kitteh]

Same thing still happens, regardless of how or what I say. Keep working at it I guess.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Yes by using the back tie this will stop your dog gaining success by releasing on the marker and not the release cue.

So have your dog back tied, when you get the dogs attention you say very softy and slowly, "goood". If your dog gets up and runs for the food, you wait, when the dog gets to the end of the line it will fail to get rewarded. Wait a good ten seconds, start the program again.

Your dog will get to learn that the marker is not a release

[Kitteh]

K9: Yes by using the back tie this will stop your dog gaining success by releasing on the marker and not the release cue.

So have your dog back tied, when you get the dogs attention you say very softy and slowly, "goood". If your dog gets up and runs for the food, you wait, when the dog gets to the end of the line it will fail to get rewarded. Wait a good ten seconds, start the program again.

Your dog will get to learn that the marker is not a release

Thanks Steve. Will give it a go at lunch, and report back.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Kitteh

[mumof5]

our goal today was a 60 sec stay............ at 43secs (i just count in my head) the bloody cat came running accross the deck........... much to my amazement she didnt even flinch - i was more distracted that she was.... i got to 60 secs said OK and off she scrambled.... not bad ey!!!!

Now if i could only get her to stop pooing on the deck

Edited March 25, 2011 by mumof5

[Kitteh]

Sorry I didn't write back straight away, I've been dog tired.. Any who, I digress.

He did quite well at lunch and the following meals. This morning i just held his collar gently and he settled, let go just slightly and as soon as he looked at me i said "OK!". So he's getting the idea..slowly.

Does it make a difference that he can see me preparing his meals? The kitchen overlooks the back deck, and he's back tied on to the table.

mumof5, nice work!!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Great work guys!

[stonecutter]

Ok - so a really stupid sounding question - but I'm trying to figure out if I've back tied correctly.

We can't do the TOT outside in our back yard because we have an open fence and people walk past on the walking track all the time. So we're doing this in a big open indoor space.

I'm tying pup's lead to an anchor point, when I release her, I'm simply unclipping the lead from her collar. Is this correct? I understand later when we get to adding distance I'll need a long line - but right now, it's a standard 1.2m lead.

We started last night because pup is with me most days and doesn't seem to listen to OH - so he was doing the TOT. A marked improvement between dinner last night and breakfast this morning.

Also - Ziva is used to hand feeding (to get her used to people, and NILIF so she works for every bit of food she gets - whether obedience or working on a treat toy) - so putting a bowl of food down means nothing to her - she just looked confused. Instead we put a handful of kibble on the ground and actually worked the exercise 4 times to finish her dinner. Is this ok?

[Steve K9Pro]

Ok - so a really stupid sounding question - but I'm trying to figure out if I've back tied correctly.

We can't do the TOT outside in our back yard because we have an open fence and people walk past on the walking track all the time. So we're doing this in a big open indoor space.

K9: yep perfectly fine, as long as the dog is used to that place.

I'm tying pup's lead to an anchor point, when I release her, I'm simply unclipping the lead from her collar. Is this correct? I understand later when we get to adding distance I'll need a long line - but right now, it's a standard 1.2m lead.

K9: Yep fine too!

We started last night because pup is with me most days and doesn't seem to listen to OH - so he was doing the TOT. A marked improvement between dinner last night and breakfast this morning.

K9: Great!

Also - Ziva is used to hand feeding (to get her used to people, and NILIF so she works for every bit of food she gets - whether obedience or working on a treat toy) - so putting a bowl of food down means nothing to her - she just looked confused. Instead we put a handful of kibble on the ground and actually worked the exercise 4 times to finish her dinner. Is this ok?

K9: Yep absolutely, the strong benefits are in the dog learning to self control, work for the reward, seek advice from the leader, the bowl side of things doesn't matter really. Good work though!

[kirst_goldens]

is it ok to crate rather then tie out a puppy?? im not a huge fan of tieing dogs if she is needed to be restrained i crate... so instead could we use a crate and then open the door when she is released?

[Steve K9Pro]

is it ok to crate rather then tie out a puppy?? im not a huge fan of tieing dogs if she is needed to be restrained i crate... so instead could we use a crate and then open the door when she is released?

K9: The tether is the better option for a number of reasons. One I dont like the crate to be seen as confinement or that the dog is being held back from something it wants, I train dogs to choose the crate. Two, you dont tether the dog and leave it, it is never really out of sight. Tethering helps the dog get comfortable being tied out which pays dividends later in life, outside the coffee shop perhaps.

Dogs that have never been back tied and have to be back tied later in life, often panic and bounce off and on the line, meaning you have to run back and get them, this is a bad lesson to learn.

A lot easier done in the control of your own yard.

But the crate will work if those other two elements don't concern you.

[onetonne]

hi all. if my dog is still whining after 10 minutes do i just keep waiting?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Do you mean whilst your preparing the food?

[puddles]

sorry if this has been asked already... am trying to get my head around the tot method! How does this training relate to improving heel work?

thanks!

[Kiara&Heidi]

K9: My Staffy is food OBSESSED. I have tried doing sit and wait exercises with her food in front of her - she will wait but she gets very stressed out and trembles uncontrollably, whinges, makes grunting noises and her eyes bulge etc. When she is waiting she looks like she is trying to restrain herself because she sort of moves around in different positions. My problem is, as far as I know there is no amount of time that I can wait until she stops this behaviour if there is food in front of her. I have tried waiting up to 2 hours (sometimes eating my dinner while she waits for hers) with her food in front of her and I am worried that it is unhealthy for her to be in this state of stress for so long. When she finally does get her food she eats it so fast that she usually has to regurgitate it and chew it again (she is raw fed so her food is in large pieces, not kibble)

I would really like to get her food obsession under control because she often starts whingeing if she hears someone preparing food and won't stop for hours.

Also I feel I should mention that she is not food agressive at all and will let anyone put their hand in her bowl or touch her while she is eating, but if she is waiting for food and someone goes near her or or the food her level of stress seems to accelerate because she thinks her food is going to be stolen.

Do you have any advice?

[Steve K9Pro]

sorry if this has been asked already... am trying to get my head around the tot method! How does this training relate to improving heel work?

thanks!

K9: I develops the reward system and a marker or communication system that can be used to train just about anything, including heel work.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: My Staffy is food OBSESSED. I have tried doing sit and wait exercises with her food in front of her - she will wait but she gets very stressed out and trembles uncontrollably, whinges, makes grunting noises and her eyes bulge etc.

K9: Of course I haven't seen her but many of the symptoms your describing are that of drive,m not stress.

When she is waiting she looks like she is trying to restrain herself because she sort of moves around in different positions. My problem is, as far as I know there is no amount of time that I can wait until she stops this behaviour if there is food in front of her. I have tried waiting up to 2 hours (sometimes eating my dinner while she waits for hers) with her food in front of her and I am worried that it is unhealthy for her to be in this state of stress for so long. When she finally does get her food she eats it so fast that she usually has to regurgitate it and chew it again (she is raw fed so her food is in large pieces, not kibble)

K9: Move the food further away and monitor the changes, teaching a dog self control will help the dog in its life and yours, you will not do any harm if you follow the program.

I would really like to get her food obsession under control because she often starts whingeing if she hears someone preparing food and won't stop for hours.

K9: Yes again, I really think that she is not stressed at all lol, but if she can make you think she is, well that will work.

Also I feel I should mention that she is not food agressive at all and will let anyone put their hand in her bowl or touch her while she is eating, but if she is waiting for food and someone goes near her or or the food her level of stress seems to accelerate because she thinks her food is going to be stolen.

K9: And this can lead to undesirable behaviors, so the TOT will be helpful for you, Training in drive with food as the motivator would help too!

[Kiara&Heidi]

Ok thanks, I am trying it. I'll post to say how it's going in a few days.