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Steve K9Pro

Triangle Of Temptation

415 posts in this topic

Hi, just a few questions.

In your instructions, you say to go inside while the dog is eating. Why is that? I like to supervise Jyra while she is eating, just to make sure she doesn't choke or anything.

So, if the dog doesn't mind being on a tie out, you can do the TOT without a tie out?

What do you do if there is no viable distance where the dog is not going to lose a bit of interest in the food. Jyra wouldn't lose her interest unless the food was 100 metres away I reckon, and I've only got about 10 metres now! As I increase the time, Jyra begins to whine and howl in frustration and makes an awful racket. Would it be better to do it with small food treats rather than her meals?

About the issue of not eating food, putting it down for 10 minutes and taking it away if they don't eat it, I have done that with Jyra for several days with both raw turkey and raw fish, and she still wouldn't eat them. When I seared the turkey, she ate a little then vomited it back up, obviously didn't agree with her and she knew it!

Edited by Purple Julie

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Also, you say "yes" and then "okay", is it alright if the dog is not still looking at you when you say "okay" and when you increase the length of time, is it the length of the look that you are increasing, so that by the end of it the dog is looking at you for the whole three minutes?

For me, I find it quite clumsy undoing the back tie and releasing Jyra, the timing just doesn't work. What sort of back ties does everyone use? Maybe mine is just backwards.

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PJ: In your instructions, you say to go inside while the dog is eating. Why is that?

K9: This being the generic version of the program, it is to cover many different types of dogs, but I like to leave the dog in peace to eat, lower pack members eat when the Alpha has left...

What would you do if she was choking? Who watches you eat? lol...

So, if the dog doesn't mind being on a tie out, you can do the TOT without a tie out?

K9: you could but there isnt any reason too... Best to follow the program as per the instructions rather than modify it.

The back tie becomes a positive thing for the dog, it stops you having to stop the dog breaking sits or stays with either Alpha pressure or physical pressure. It keeps the dog in drive...

What do you do if there is no viable distance where the dog is not going to lose a bit of interest in the food. Jyra wouldn't lose her interest unless the food was 100 metres away I reckon, and I've only got about 10 metres now! As I increase the time, Jyra begins to whine and howl in frustration and makes an awful racket. Would it be better to do it with small food treats rather than her meals?

K9: No, do it as per the instructions.. Your telling me what you "think" the dog will do... Just give it a try, or of course, dont...

About the issue of not eating food, putting it down for 10 minutes and taking it away if they don't eat it, I have done that with Jyra for several days with both raw turkey and raw fish, and she still wouldn't eat them.

K9: Im a little confused, above you say you will need 100 metres because the dog will go nuts for the food, but niw you say the dog wont eat?

Something in your description is amiss...

When I seared the turkey, she ate a little then vomited it back up, obviously didn't agree with her and she knew it!

K9: not allowing dogs to free feed (ie removing food after 10 mins) is not a technique used to get dogs to eat things they dont like, its to stop them being picky...

You wouldnt start this with something they had never ate before?

Also, you say "yes" and then "okay", is it alright if the dog is not still looking at you when you say "okay" and when you increase the length of time,

K9: yes thats fine...

is it the length of the look that you are increasing, so that by the end of it the dog is looking at you for the whole three minutes?

K9: if you have the need for a 3 minute attention from the dog yes... if you dont no...

For me, I find it quite clumsy undoing the back tie and releasing Jyra,

K9: practice..

the timing just doesn't work.

K9: I guess you mean your timing... practice makes perfect...

Edited by K9 Force

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What would you do if she was choking?

Panic! Try to help her, call the vet.

K9: Im a little confused, above you say you will need 100 metres because the dog will go nuts for the food, but niw you say the dog wont eat?

Something in your description is amiss...

It's Jyra that is amiss! She is excited about all food and eats her chicken, beef, lamb and pork, etc. But she won't eat raw fish or raw turkey (or spleen or intestines! Would you? :laugh: ). I could take raw fish out for her and make her wait for it, and she would get all worked up and excited and then once she is released to eat it, she'll just give it a lick or two and leave it.

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cassie   

Hi Steve,

I have just found and read this article, seems great so am going to start it tonight! I just have a question as to how this TOT could relate to other training? I have already taught my 18 month old male Bernese Mountain Dog this basic procedure (without the tie-back, which I will introduce tonight), and he is very solid in waiting for me to give him the "OK" before he can eat. But can this same method somehow be used to make him give me more attention (or ANY attention) when out on walks and around other dogs? Because at the moment I am getting little to none. He is VERY distracted by other dogs. (By the way he is not desexed.)

Thanks for any info, Cassie

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I just have a question as to how this TOT could relate to other training?

K9: one major way is that it confirms to the dog that the command is an opportunity to earn a reward... One of the most important training rules...

and he is very solid in waiting for me to give him the "OK" before he can eat

K9: make sure your using the verbal marker...

But can this same method somehow be used to make him give me more attention (or ANY attention) when out on walks and around other dogs? Because at the moment I am getting little to none. He is VERY distracted by other dogs. (By the way he is not desexed.)

K9: Intro a key word for attention, then build it in the triangle, the dog just wont stare at you all the time if you dont use a command & if he has a pre existing dog problem...

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Okay I have just started o do this with my dog so I hope Im not asking any questions that you have answerd already.

I will place the food on the ground (Far way from her becasue she will hurt herself trying to get to it if its to close) then I walk to her right side, she still trys to pull and jump to get the food so I say her name and she looks at me for a seconds which in return I say good and ok but before I finsh saying good she is already trying to pull and jump in hopes of getting the food.... So with that said do I have to keep her focus long enough to tell her ok and finsh the word good?

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I will place the food on the ground (Far way from her becasue she will hurt herself trying to get to it if its to close) then I walk to her right side, she still trys to pull and jump to get the food so I say her name and she looks at me for a seconds which in return I say good and ok but before I finsh saying good she is already trying to pull and jump in hopes of getting the food.... So with that said do I have to keep her focus long enough to tell her ok and finsh the word good?

K9: you cant call the dog to look at you, the dog thinks its controlling the triangle, & it is.

The dog has to look at you after making the decision to... Otherwise the dog is only learning to act up to make you help... Move the food further away...

***********************************

Neither Texas or Chester will wait in a sit for even 2 mins ... they go into a down or shuffle backwards or stand up ... I've been repeating the "sit" and then if they break it too many times (I haven't calculated how many times exactly, sometimes just a couple, sometimes I've been more tolerant) I just go and take the bowl away, and get another dog and try again later. It's taken Chester on his 3rd attempt to sit (stay sitting) before he's gotten dinner.

Am I correct in asking for the time (3 minutes) before I move off from their side a step or two (distance)? I'd say 'yes'

K9: yes, but you may be moving to fast for the dogs...

and

Am I correct in asking for the time (3 minutes) before I move onto another command (down)? I'd say 'yes'

K9: yes, of course if you want a 3 minute stay...

and

which one do I do first the new command or distance, after (if) I get the time? I'm guessing I'd ask for distance yes?

K9: yes time before distance before distraction...

And

am I asking for too much time too soon? remembering I have been doing this for 3 weeks and they were able to wait for 10 minutes (so technically they should be capable) before ...

K9: yes but not in drive...

Can I help them stay in the sit? Like talk encouragingly?

K9: yes of course, using the yes word is very good...

Or if I see them start to unsettle repeat or give a hand signal? Can I use "wait" which I know they understand to hang out, and might help them stay in a sit and wait for the length of time I'm asking?

K9: yes, anything you do to show the dog success after they have given you attention is fine...

Texas, too, is bouncing off the end of the lead when I say "yes", before I've said "okay" ... what are we supposed to do here?

K9: you slow down your yes, show him that diesnt get hium let off the leash to eat the food but ok does...

I would suggest moving food away further from all dogs...

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CM : Yep, cool ... the drive is obviously high

K9: & we know that is good...

Um ... I'm kinda running out of room

K9: in extreme cases, you can either, feed small meal in morning & use triangle in afternoon, to reduce drive or use a blind to put the food behind.

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Griffo   

am I asking for too much time too soon? remembering I have been doing this for 3 weeks and they were able to wait for 10 minutes (so technically they should be capable) before ...

K9: yes but not in drive...

So if Ells is laying down waiting for the duratin of 3 minutes, i guess she isnt in drive? is this oaky for her to do while she's waiting for so long? or should she be in drive the whole time?

She only remains in drive for about the first 20 seconds of waiting.

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I just want to say I have introduced the TOT and it's great. In under TWO WEEKS my dog who is very food driven and would dive right in there, now sits and does not even BOTHER to look at the food anymore, her eyes are on my eyes the ENTIRE TIME waiting for my yes. She sits immediately when I go out. I normally make her wait reasonably short lengths of time (30sec) so now I'm going to increase the price of poker. I have never had to tie back the dog either, I dont know if this is an essential part of the program, I interpreted it to be more to stop the dog just diving to the food but my dog has never done that due to my voice command of telling her to sit and stay prior to putting the food down. She's about 2metres from the food each time.

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no, it's not clear as mud lol, sorry.

If the dog isn't diving for the food and is waiting for my command why does she need a tie. To me it just makes the reward delayed and further away from the yes I'm so happy you are a good girl response while I tend to releasing. I'm no expert, heck I have no idea lol, just thinking out loud. Interested to see what K9 has to say. I hope I'm not rehashing I am not up to speed on all the responses.

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Griffo   

i think the tie back is only there to get your dog used to being tied up and happy to be tied up

if they wait for your okay without it and are fine being tied out for a period of time without whinging then i don’t think there is any need for it

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Alibear   
I just want to say I have introduced the TOT and it's great. In under TWO WEEKS my dog who is very food driven and would dive right in there, now sits and does not even BOTHER to look at the food anymore, her eyes are on my eyes the ENTIRE TIME waiting for my yes. She sits immediately when I go out. I normally make her wait reasonably short lengths of time (30sec) so now I'm going to increase the price of poker. I have never had to tie back the dog either, I dont know if this is an essential part of the program, I interpreted it to be more to stop the dog just diving to the food but my dog has never done that due to my voice command of telling her to sit and stay prior to putting the food down. She's about 2metres from the food each time.

As Rachelle has said, I'm pretty sure that the tie back is there to teach the dog that being tied out is ok. So for instance if you wanted to eat in a cafe or pop into the corner shop for a few minutes the dog will learn that being tired out is ok and will not be bothered by this and won't bark and whine while you are not there.....

If you don't have problems with tying out your dog and your dog will sit and wait for your verbal marker when using the TOT then as far as I'm aware that would be ok.

I know when I started this with my boy he was just a puppy and hated being tied up or left somewhere for any period of time (ie outside shop etc), but I have absolutely no problems anymore. Fixed them in just a couple days to be honest.

But K9 is the best person to clarify this for you, what do I know, I could be completely wrong :mad

Edited by Alibear

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K9: the back tie has its merits in a few ways..

1. its stops the dog self rewarding. (running & eating the food)

2. It stops you from being the one saying to the dog you cant have the food, the back tie does that & you van say when the dog can have the food... Your saying yes not no...

3. You dont have to use verbal control. this can drop the dog out of drive.

4. The dog makes its own decision to look at you, nothing to do with your voice control..

5. It adds a positive attachment to the back tie...

6. It takes the concern away from the handler if they think the dog may break...

So, I guess its important...

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Bindo   

I've been trying this with Lucy over the past few weeks and it's going really well - she is now happy to be tied up without whinging or pulling and she's getting better at staying longer before the command to eat.

Just one question for K9 if possible:

You mentioned earlier to introduce a verbal command into the triangle so that the dog will undertstand this for other situations, such as carrying on when out on a walk (ie the 'look at me' command)

K9: Intro a key word for attention, then build it in the triangle, the dog just wont stare at you all the time if you dont use a command & if he has a pre existing dog problem...

But in the last post, you said that the dog has to make its own decision to look at you, nothing to do with your voice control.

Perhaps I'm having a blonde day here, but am slightly confused? Thanks in advance for any advice. :)

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