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Thunder

Springers And Field Spaniels

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Mercedes   

Congratulations to you and Dare, what a great pic!

Thanks for the info, I will try to get there in the morning to make sure I catch you all. Good luck in the show!

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Thunder   

Go Dare! :thumbsup: She looks gorgeous

do you know whether Dare's brother is going to be at the Perth Royal PC? I was thinking about going for Gundog day next week. Although I looked at the schedule I noticed that there's no "field spaniel" breed listed on the judging programme (although I suppose they might come under "any breed not listed").

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poocow   

Go Dare! :thumbsup: She looks gorgeous

do you know whether Dare's brother is going to be at the Perth Royal PC? I was thinking about going for Gundog day next week. Although I looked at the schedule I noticed that there's no "field spaniel" breed listed on the judging programme (although I suppose they might come under "any breed not listed").

Yes Giddy will be there :)

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Leah82   

thanks for the field spaniel cuddles today steph :D Moo and Dare are gorgeous and I think we've convinced the OH that field spaniels are the way to go (although we still might have to throw in a cocker to keep him happy)

and if you ever need a break from Dare feel free to send her our way for a holiday :p

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Mercedes   

I think I dropped past at the same time you were there Leah82 :) Didn't want to interrupt you and Steph though, so I had a good chat to Georgie. It was lovely to see Moo and Dare do so well, congratulations Poocow!

The Fields were all so beautiful...

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poocow   

Home from Melbourne :)

Thanks for dropping by to say hi Leah - I should have left Dare with you, shes so naughty laugh.gif

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ncarter   

question for you guys. Im seen some English springers being referred to as American type. What are the main differences between the traditional English springer type and this American type?

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Thunder   

For those not on FB - Moo and her kids Dare & Logan

10522439_10154637326630521_1100738675669852847_n.jpg?oh=c1a2c0e37cb91cc4544ff7b77caee385&oe=54C939FE&__gda__=1417883923_c194c6df87c4e011e217401ce813b69c

My girls <3

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aaw, I can't believe they were so small at the start of the year- they're all grown up! You can tell Logan was the yellow pup- the ridge that runs up his nose is a dead giveaway. Unfortunately I didn't get to go to the Perth Royal, so missed seeing Giddy :cry:

and Moo looks as beautiful as ever :love:

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Thunder   

question for you guys. Im seen some English springers being referred to as American type. What are the main differences between the traditional English springer type and this American type?

ncarter, it's a bit like a granny smith and a golden delicious- very much a personal preference thing, although every now and then breeders start talking about whether the breed should be separated into two breeds- the english springer spaniel and the american springer spaniel (in which case, the working english springer spaniel would need to find its own niche as well).

As the names suggest, the 'type' of english springer spaniel bred in America (show-wise, because field-bred english springers are different), is different to the english springer spaniel bred in England.

American type springers tend to have very little spots, a 'blanket' marking (eg. a solid liver or black 'blanket' on their back), and their head shape is quite different- tends to be a bit more refined and flatter on top.

a couple of examples: http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=63296

and http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=3907

and http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=52782

I was told by an american type breeder that she felt they were more elegant

in contrast, the english-type springer tends to have a more classic 'english head' which is rounder and softer, they can have a blanket marking, but just as many have a more broken pattern, and they often have a lot more spots

a couple of examples:

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=32162

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=43432

and http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=60441

there are also a few in Australia that are a bit of both, although most breeders tend to have a preference one way or the other.

hope this helps :)

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ncarter   

another question. How do you guys view tail docking in springers? If it was still legal here would you still practice it?

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poocow   

I can answer that in regards to Fields - I have 2 girls both with broken tails. One I got amputated it was so bad the other was left as it was not causing her pain. Our dogs were docked for a reason and if I had the option I would prefer to dock them because breaking a tail is so painful. An amputation once the nerves are developed and the blood flow is increased to the tail is a much more serious operation than docking at 2 days. Just my opinion though I don't see us ever getting back the option to dock.

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another question. How do you guys view tail docking in springers? If it was still legal here would you still practice it?

I have a field bred ESS who competes in gundog trials and has been shot over. I have never had a problem with her tail except that it wags a LOT :laugh: She has low tail carriage and it is of a good length and I trim the feathering back to the tip to limit the amount of blackberry etc it picks up. I had another pup for a bit that I did some training with before it went to a working home - his tail was pretty long and ended up getting medically docked later on as he kept smacking it on the pen. The problem is that no one has selected for moderate tails for so long so the gene pool is highly variable. Field-bred ESS are traditionally left with longer tails than other Spaniels after docking. I was chatting to a mate from Ireland who has hunted over ESS and GSPs a lot back home and he said the main thing with the ESS was the heavy bramble and prickles they were diving into to flush game. He reckons undocked tails would end up just embedded with prickles. If you've ever seen an ESS working their tails go ballistic - fast and furious wagging. There are also issues with working dogs that are penned.

My Dally has a whip of a tail and he's been taught not to wag against walls with some rear end awareness work - that fixed the bleeding tip issue.

Would I dock? No. Probably not. I know it doesn't hurt them at a conscious level if done very early on as the nerve centres are not well developed but research using electroencephalograms (EEG) strongly suggests that the brain still recognises the pain and that it can cause sensitisation to pain later in life if appropriate anaesthetics are not used. I'm not sure that a local is sufficient.

Edited by The Spotted Devil

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Thunder   

I don't really mind either way- some dogs seem much more aware of how long their tail is than others- Chuck is very aware of his tail and has never damaged it, while Mav (cocker) has hurt the tip before (you can tell too, because the hair grew back white). We also had another Cocker before Chuck, who was undocked long before the no-docking rules came into place(we got him at about 2 years old, I don't know why he wasn't docked as a puppy when it was very normal to do so then), and he banged his tail on everything, but managed (thankfully) not to hurt it.

My cousin's Boxer cross has a long whip tail and he constantly damages it while wagging it around- it's not uncommon to see the tip bleeding.

I wouldn't choose either as a preference personally, after 15 years since my first spaniel with a long tail, I've gotten pretty used to it, but I would be just as happy with a docked tail too. As long as the rest of the dog is healthy, structurally and temperamentally sound, I don't really care what kind of tail it has.

One advantage I've noticed of Mav (Blind cocker) having a tail, is that he actually uses it to navigate now that he can't see. When we're out somewhere in the open it wags normally, when we're in tight spaces he waves it in large slow arcs that go all the way from one side of him to the other. He can then feel anything around him, so when he turns around his head doesn't hit anything behind or to the side.

TSD, what's your opinion on dew claw removal? They're normally done at the same time as docking, and presumably would have the same nerve centre response?

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Another conundrum Thunder but a great question that is always about balance...I've seen dew claws tear away and make an awful mess but there is another way of looking at it which is: legs can get broken but we don't chop those off at birth. There is a lot of discussion around front dew claws in agility dogs at the moment - that they give them balance and should not be removed (think of those awesome slow mo videos). My Dally's front ones are gone and they do look "clean" whilst Em has hers and they cause no problems - I'm not 100% convinced either way to be honest. Still grasping for some concrete evidence. Whilst I haven't made my mind up I would consider removing any hind leg dewclaws (lesser of 2 evils perhaps?) but wouldn't remove those on the front legs.

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