jaybeece Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Well tonight was a crappy walk day. I'm sure you've all had at least a few before where everything goes wrong so you'll understand. We started out trying a martingale collar because I'm scared of what kind of damage the choker is doing to my dog's neck. It's not that he's allowed to hang on the end of it or that I've giving overly rough corrections, it's that when he lunges at other dogs I can't help but think he's really damaging his throat. Anyway, the martingale is an official failure. Not only does he not give a crap about it's presence, but I also have to yank hard on the damn thing to get any kind of correction out if it. Kind of defeats the purpose of a more throat friendly collar. Added to which he had a go at a dog he's usually 100% fine with because the other dog was holding a stick in his mouth. Possessiveness was something I thought we had ironed out months ago, turns out that ain't the case. Then as I'm trying to have him calm down another dog started harassing him who's owner has probably never heard of the phrase "effective verbal control" which made things 10x harder. Oh yeah, and he pulled like a bastard the whole walk, partly due to lack of choker and partly because I think he was just in a pullin' mood. 40kg of pulling dog vs 60kg of me makes for a difficult walk. Now I've been sitting at home feeling miserable because my dog is broken and I can't take him any of the fun places I want to (ie. the beach, markets, friend's homes) and I just felt the need to vent :D What do you guys do when you feel like this? I'm trying to focus on the fact that he's improved overall, but it's not really helping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 I really symathise with you...this can be soo frustrating and when things are like this. Thing is that there seem to be sooo many people around that just don't realise the kind of struggle that you're having and exacerbate the situation by coming too close with their dogs. The choke chain was not an option for my girl too. I had her on a show choke at a show one time, she saw someone coming that she wanted to greet, lunged towards them like a cannon ball shot, hit the end of the show lead, (a short one) flipped in mid air and come crashing down on her back. The jolt she got meant absolutely nothing to her cuz she got up and did the same thing again. She was delivering a check to herself that I couldn't have mustered the strength for, but it didn't slow her down one iota. So I don't use the check chain because I know that she will cause damage if she hasn't already. I'm persisting with the martingale until K9 is up this way to show me how to use the prong. Thing is she is potentially dangerous to both herself and me unless we can get this problem under control, and I want us both to be able to enjoy our walks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share Posted August 2, 2006 I'm persisting with the martingale until K9 is up this way to show me how to use the prong. I think this is going to be my solution as well, it's pretty much the only collar we haven't tried yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Is your martingale all fabric or leather? We have a fabric and chain one so still has the harsh correction sound to it from the chain, and though it doesn't stop them the noise is just a little more effective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berly Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Why don't you try a halter? I weigh 40 kg, my dog 50kg (60kg for a while when he was younger)- makes for an interesting walk. I bought a Gentle Leader years ago and it was the best thing I've ever bought! Although he always paws at it when I first put it on, he adjusts really quickly when he figures out its walk time and doesn't pull at all and when he does lunge or have a go at something I have total control of him with a gentle pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share Posted August 2, 2006 Is your martingale all fabric or leather?We have a fabric and chain one so still has the harsh correction sound to it from the chain, and though it doesn't stop them the noise is just a little more effective I've got the same as you specifically because I hoped the chain sound would remind him of the choker. It did for about a block before he saw through my plans :D Why don't you try a halter? That's what he ended up on today because I got so sick of struggling with the martingale. I always carry a Halti with me as it's really great for situations where I need extra control over him (like at the vet's or in crowds). It's ultimately not so great for walking him because he's utterly miserable wearing it and doesn't enjoy himself at all. I'm working on building his confidence and having him relax more so keeping him happy is very important right now. The other thing that worries me is that if he was to lunge suddenly it could hurt his neck pretty badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamby Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 My little black dog was and still is to some degree a nasty pastie. She would have a go at any dog big or small, it made no difference to her. When on or off lead if she saw a dog she would lunge. I used a halti which made a huge difference then I found a Ezy Walker and that was wonderful too. Then one day I was out trying to trick her into jumping the 570mm height for the Agility class. I had jumps set up on the bike track at all different heights and a mountain of food to reward her when she did what I wanted her too (still wouldn't jump the 570 jump) anyway, she took off on me, I turned around and here were three dogs, off lead walking on the bike track with their owner. I immediatly thought that it was going to be her last day on this earth. I called her back to me, rewarded her, she ran back to the dogs (thank God they were well socialised dogs) I called her again and she came back wagging her tail, she was rewarded again and then she would run out to say hello to the dogs, turn around immediately run back to me etc. She did this a number of times and I thought this is good. Now days she isn't quite as bad on lead and brilliant off lead and will tell the dog to buggar off without being a nasty pastie and go off and do her own thing. By looking at the photo you'd think butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. Little Black B..... Some you win, some you loose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Ah ok! They are better than the plain ones but not good enough! lol I use those collars and treats as they just don't react to correction :D But I'm a fan of treat training! And my two will do anything for the smallest treat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Why don't you try a halter?. I actually did try the halter on my girl, but when she lunges its soooo powerful and sudden that her head was snapping back towards me in such a way that I was waiting for a sickening crack to tell me that we'd done some really awful damage. Ever seen those movies where someone sneaks up behind someone else and snaps their neck....thats kinda what it looked like. I use those collars and treats as they just don't react to correction But I'm a fan of treat training! And my two will do anything for the smallest treat I'm totally with you on that one shoemonster...our issues started with two separate incidents. First up, when my girl was a puppy, she was healing sooo well, but she started to anticipate the treat. One day she came up to get the treat as I was leaning down to give it to her...she hooked one of her baby canines into the pad of my finger and in one foul swoop I had 16kgs of pup hanging off my little finger. With the sudden pain, I shook my hand rather violently to get her off, and in the process gave her a hell of a fright. She screamed an ran away from me. For a while for her, walking beside me was not safe. It took a little work to get her over this. :D At around about the same time I started taking her to obedience club where some of my friends go. As she was trying to avoid being beside me by either pulling ahead, or walking wide of me, friends would greet and treat. What I didn't see then was that she was getting randomly rewarded for a) pulling against me and b)staying as far as she could from me whilst on lead and hence relieving her fear of being next to me. I really didn't see where all this was going to head because I was happy that she was otherwise a very friendly and social dog and wanted to meet people and their dogs. Hard way to learn, eh? Bottom line is, I'm in the position where I have to take another step. She was 4 months old at the beginning of these incidents and she is 19 months old now...whilst she no longer has the fear of being beside me....she still lunges hoping to get those treats. 15 months of work on this has only slightly improved her lunging when she sees another person or dog that she knows. I'm must admit though, I'm also a little disappointed that those who would make themselves out to know so much about training dogs in obedience could continue to contribute to the problem without seeing where it was heading. I've come to the conclusion to be wary of what people tell you they know as far as dog training at obedience clubs go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickyp Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 I know exactly how you feel, jaybeece. I've had walks with my kelpiexacd girl where I've come home in tears of frustration or having hurt my back trying to control her pulling. She only weighs about 20kg to my 70-odd, but when she throws herself at the end of the leash she might as well weigh 100kg. I can't use a correction chain on her because I just don't have the muscle to correct hard enough to get through to her. My OH can, but I worry about the damage to her neck and throat from it. I tried a martingale, thinking, like you, that the noise might do the job and it would be easier on her neck, but it lasted 5 minutes before she had it sussed out. I've tried head halters (Halti & the Blackdog one), but she stills pulls - although not as hard - and she hates them. I only use them when we're in a situation where I know she goes going to be particularly excitable because it gives me at least a little bit of control. When she has a head halter on she whines constantly as well, which really grates on my nerves and winds up all the other dogs around. The only thing which has worked for me - and it doesn't work all the time - is using a flat collar and just stopping when she lunges or starts to pull. I tell her to come back or to heel and if she doesn't respond, I start walking backwards slowly and drag her away from whatever she's focussed on. As I said, it doesn't work all the time but, for me, it works better than the correction chain, for now. I'm waiting for K9 to come to Ballarat, so I can talk to him about a prong collar, or whether training in drive might help by putting her focus more on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillian Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Hey jaybeece, We had (love the fact that I can use the word "had" and not "have") the same problem with our fella not too long ago. The right tools and the right trainer make all the difference - where about are you? Suggestion to all those having trouble walking your dogs (and this is what we did before we met our trainer) is stop taking him out till you see a trainer. Every time your dog does something you tell it not to do and gets away with it, it diminishes your status to the dog and this will probably cause more issues. We thought it was horrible not to take our dog for a walk but sometimes it is the best thing till you get some help. Our trainer is fantastic :D and she got Harley walking nicely in the first session. Cheers Gillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffles Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Now I've been sitting at home feeling miserable because my dog is broken and I can't take him any of the fun places I want to (ie. the beach, markets, friend's homes) I know exactly how this feels. I go through it almost everytime I have Loki out in public. It has almost gotten to the point where I wont take him out, I let my OH do it because I cannot deal with the crap. Definately seek the advice of a good behaviourlist (sp?) and trainer. Chin Up... he'll be fixed in due time I'm sure :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted August 3, 2006 Author Share Posted August 3, 2006 Thanks for the responses guys I'm feeling a little better today, just looking into those big sooky brown eyes reminds me how much of a sweet heart my boy can be. Shoemonster: I've tried getting him to work for treats and he really doesn't seem to care. He's not the most food motivated dog, hell if I'm coming past with a full water bowl, he'll move back from his dinner and let me pass. Very polite of him, but I wish he cared more about food! I've tried skipping his brekkie to make him more food motivated, but I think I'd need to starve him a week to get anything enthusiasm out of him. popsicle: I did start trying the flat collar and he's very good for the most part. I do feel like he needs a correction collar of some kind though because he can be incredibly pig headed at times! If he pulls I stop which makes him sit, then I tell him to heel and we don't continue until he's sitting nicely next to me. Works well apart from when he's having an off day Gillian: Congrats on sorting out your boy I'm in Melbourne and we've been attending obedience for some time now and have had some great results. He's been charging up classes and if it wasn't for his dog aggression he'd be kicking arse in offlead work right now. You're definately right about not letting them get away with poor behaviour, and it's not something I allow. It's just hard going when he wants to work against me for a whole walk! Ruffles: Thanks I'd dearly love to have a behaviouralist look at him, but at $200-$300 per session I just don't have the money right now. We are definately making progress and I can read him pretty well, but I think a behaviouralist could really help refine how I handle him and speed up the process. I know one day he'll be "fixed", but some days it's hard to be positive about it. Gamby: you're right, she is a picture of innocence ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Now I've been sitting at home feeling miserable because my dog is broken and I can't take him any of the fun places I want to (ie. the beach, markets, friend's homes) and I just felt the need to vent What do you guys do when you feel like this? I'm trying to focus on the fact that he's improved overall, but it's not really helping If your dog behaves well at obedience and does this elsewhere then he's learned to particularise his good behaviour to a given situation - you need to expand it out wider. Your dog CAN learn to walk on a loose lead, come when its called and behave - perhaps you just need some very experienced person to help you achieve your goals. Don't get sad - take action!! No kind of collar or non-pulling gadget will substitute for a good trainer who will tell you that it takes TWO to have a dog pull on lead - dogs don't pull offlead now do they? They only pull because we let them and they can learn to pull on anything... Sporn Harness, Halti's - whatever. I wouldn't take another step with him pulling.. can you use a clicker? I've seen dogs grasp the concept of "we don't go anywhere when the lead is tight" in about 5-10 minutes. The challenge after that is to be consistent and NEVER allow the dog to pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 My heart goes out for you jbc, I know what you are talking about as I also had a serial puller. that is a 4.5 yo puller... I had him on all sorts of equipement with some results but still pulling me unless I yelled at him.. I have had a prong collar given to me by a friend from overseas but was affraid to use it. I went to see K9 Force and voila this is how we are now I was shown in one lesson what to do, did it at home as told and you can see for yourself. BTW Rex isnt that good in this video, he was tired after a huge run and training and was lagging a bit, but yu can see that I change directions, speed etc and he is just walking with me not pulling. He isnt to heel, he is to walk on loose lead (in case someone wants to comment that he isnt close to me on the turns) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted August 3, 2006 Author Share Posted August 3, 2006 poodlefan: I know where you're coming from, but he really is quite good majority of the time! I don't tolerate pulling and he's actually very good at heeling wherever we are because I've made sure he understands that heel means heel regardless of the scenario. The times he does pull are when he's released from any commands and gets excited about something, whether it's another dog or something nice to sniff. Even then he's usually pretty ok. It's just last night he just seemed to be away with the pixies. I am relying on training first and foremost when working with him, a pinch collar sounds like it will make things a lot easier though. myszka: great video! Looks like he's doing really well I'd really like to see K9 next time he comes down to Melbourne anyway to see how he gets dogs working so nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 myszka: great video! Looks like he's doing really well I'd really like to see K9 next time he comes down to Melbourne anyway to see how he gets dogs working so nicely. he is doing a lot better than this video this was filmed to show someone what type of corrections are required when using a prong collar - this was an original purpose od the clip. BTW you can always fly up to Sydney to see K9 - many people do..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted August 4, 2006 Share Posted August 4, 2006 And I drove to see Steve last weekend for our second lesson. No more bad walk days for me Bella is a pleasure to walk now and can get past birds which were her greatest distraction. The best thing that came out of this training in drive is the confidence I now have in what to do which is reflected in Bella's confidence in me. We still have a few things to fix but they are negligible compared to where we came from - a serial bird lunger You'll have it sorted soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted August 4, 2006 Author Share Posted August 4, 2006 Thanks for the words of encouragement I've caved and booked an appointment with a behaviouralist next Tuesday. I really can't afford it, but something needs to change quick smart. He lunged at one of the cats this morning which has been an issue for a little while, but provided he's not around her and food everything has been ok. She always eyeballs him and he really doesn't handle it well which I think was the reason behind his lunge at her today since there was no food around. He's totally fine with the other cat, because the other cat knows better than to challenge a dog that's 50x bigger than him! Silly animals After this I definately won't have the money to fly to see Steve, let alone putting petrol in my car to drive anywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 4, 2006 Share Posted August 4, 2006 I suggest that you check with the trainer if they 100% guarantee that the dog wont pull after the lesson. Steve guarantees and eveyone that has been to him knows how easy it is and that it can be guaranteed. If your are going to spend $$$$ on whoever and only maaaaybe get results, you might be better off flying up here. Once you are shown its a piece of cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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