morgan Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Sorry morgan.......your theories don't stand up.....NOT desexing is irresponsible. :p Where have I said don't desex? If you remember from previous threads, I am a staunch advocate of surgical sterilisation for those breeds that suffer from adverse effects of juvenile desexing. I firmly believe that toy breed house pets are fine with being desexed around 6 mths - I personally wouldn't have an entire male toy for a house pet, and he would be done before he lifted his leg! :p Believing in informed choice, and recognising that different breeds and different owners have different needs is hardly being against desexing ;) There are so many posts on this forum about adverse effects from early desexing that various members have EXPERIENCED in their own dogs, I would hardly call them "theories" ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 If people are so irresponsible as to fail to house their dogs properly, then I really have to question if they should own a dog at all. Ahhh yes, the crux of the matter. Sadly, although we probably ALL believe that irresponsible people should not own animals, they DO.... and they CAN.... and they WILL.... and there is nothing to stop these irrespnsible people owning animals. Hence the need to find other ways and methods of dealing with the issue of unwanted animals and feral animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working_Setters Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Morgan - thanks for your continuing efforts to educate many people on this board to the numerous considerations surrounding desexing. I find your comments articulate, intelligent, courteous and well researched. Personally I find them both enjoyable and educational. Your patience and restraint in the face of numerous frustrating and provocative posts is both commendable and frankly amazing. I rate you as one of the most experienced, knowledgeable, thoughtful and therefore valuable contributors on DOL. Keep up the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 After a recent conversation with a veterinarian friend I believe that a hysterectomy may not be the viable solution to pet homes either and considering pet homes (as opposed to breeders) make up the greater majority of pet ownership in this country this becomes a major problem. He said it is very difficult to remove all the uterus without leaving some remnants of it at the uterine/cervical stump. Apparently because some uterine tissue still remains, the dog will still display all (including bleeding however reduced) normal signs of oestrus making it a poor option for most pet owners. A friend of his had her dog speyed two and half years ago. The bitch has been coming into season as per usual since desexing. The friend continually complained and had a falling out with her vet. Last month the bitch got quite sick and emergency surgery discovered an abcess on the uterine stump and closed pyometra. One ovary was still intact. So..... What to do? Who and what to believe? Personally, again from a rescue point of view I will continue to advocate early desexing. If this means 8 - 12 weeks then so be it. My own animals (both cats and dogs) have always been desexed at 6 months and I have never experienced any problems. With more than 60,000 dogs euthanased across Australia every year and the fact that this figure is increasing by up to 10% every year, I think that early desexing IS essential and a serious consideration for the future of animal wefare in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 (edited) Understand that surgical sterilisation is not in most vet's area of expertise, especially with bitches. It will take time and experience. Many vets can and do vasectomise ferrets, cats etc. Ok - radical idea here - instead of compulsory desexing of all puppies, why not enforce vasectomisation of all male pups unless going to registered breeders or exhibitors (with recognition of non ANKC breeds). While we're at it, restrict puppy mills' access to entires by limiting the number of breeding dogs they are allowed to keep - and ENFORCE it. With the amount of red tape and inspections etc to police this, why not enforce vasectomisation of all entire adult pets under a certain age as part of their registration renewal while we're at it. As council rangers in many places already doorknock in search of unregistered dogs or "dangerous breeds", it should be possible. Owners that have registered dogs already have their dog's status details available for councils to track down entires. If almost every male dog is vasectomised it will be a lot harder for unwanted litters to arrive, owners can get their dogs desexed at a healthier age of their choosing, or not, depending on what suits their individual circumstances. We are talking major Big Brother here, but the lobby groups of rescuers and the pollies are already trying to bring this about. BTW - I would hate to see the demise of the good old fashioned "mutt" through this, but rescuers seem to want this... Edited November 6, 2006 by morgan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) We are talking major Big Brother here, but the lobby groups of rescuers and the pollies are already trying to bring this about.BTW - I would hate to see the demise of the good old fashioned "mutt" through this, but rescuers seem to want this... Yes, Morgan, your wisdom as usual is astounding. ;) Actually I would feel comfortable in declaring that 'most' rescuers don't give a tinkers cuss whether the dog they are rescuing is pure or mongrel.... wrong group sweetheart, you appear to have confused us with elitist breeders. ;) Actually, rescuers want people to put the welfare of animals first. The welfare of the animal above current breeding practices, above the show ring, above the personal likes and dislikes of dog owners and above the limited, blinkered and selfish views of certain people. Edited November 7, 2006 by Puggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Sorry, should have clarified - meant the rescuer groups that are lobbying the government to bring in compulsory desexing of all puppies except those going to people with breeders permits. Am in a rush, because I have to leave to rescue an unwanted heavily pregnant cat ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peibe Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 I like your work Puggles lol Huffle puff, all those non desexing baby puppies please come up with a solution to my problem Say I have 10 mixed breed pups in foster care, rehoming for $250, they are all large breeds. They all take 8 weeks to rehome due to size etc How do I rehome those same pups for $400 when I have to have a tubiligation done and a vacectomy (please excuse spelling) I do not like desexing babies, but HAVE NO CHOICE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Bloody hell Its hard to just get an answer without all of the opinions and emotions which just confuse the issue. This question is science based . Does desexing alter the height or the coat of a dog. The answer is either yes or no or sometimes. On a scientific level based on our knowledge of what roll testosterone [ or lack there of ] and eostrogen [ or lack there of ] play in the body - Yes ,the growth plates may be affected and yes the coat may be affected . Experience and eye witness accounts tell us that this is the case in some breeds more than others. Answering the question truthfully based on what you know and what you have seen is neither pro nor anti . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 BTW - I would hate to see the demise of the good old fashioned "mutt" through this, but rescuers seem to want this... Sorry, should have clarified - meant the rescuer groups that are lobbying the government to bring in compulsory desexing of all puppies except those going to people with breeders permits. And how are they doing this? They haven't said "ANKC Breeder's Permit", they've said "Breeder's Permit" which implies to most (and is confirmed by my discussion with the petition starter) a local council issued "breeder's permit". These council "breeder permits" are not only given to ANKC breeder's (some council require this, not all). The petition people have just as much issue with ANKC breeders doing the wrong thing as they do with accidental and purposeful cross bred litters. So the petition starter, plus I'd say the majority of other rescue groups are most definately NOT trying to dispose of all mutts. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toohey Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Answering the question truthfully based on what you know and what you have seen is neither pro nor anti . Thank you Steve ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauBo Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Why it is not politically correct for responsible, informed owners to keep entire dogs in secure premises is totally beyond me. My entire dogs and bitches have never produced an accidental litter in over 30 years - it can be done, and I'm fed up with everyone assuming that ALL entires are responsible for the unwanted dog problem. If you have 30 year old dogs still producng pups then you should sell that formula. You'd make a fortune. Edited November 7, 2006 by BeauBo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Border Lover Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 It is true that if you desex a dog before puberty ie 6 months of age then its growth plates do not close and you do end up with a longer legged dog. If you desex female dogs too young, incontinense can become and issue when they are older. If you desex your bitch after its first season then you have the risk of pyometra (uterine infection) and if they have phantom pregnancy and come into milk then they have the risk of developing mammary cancer at a later age. The best age to desex is around 6months of age, and they cope better with an anaesthetic at that age, rather than younger. If you do not use your dogs for breeding purposed then I think you should have them desexed. There are risks of cancers, prostate problems, infections, unwanted pregnancies, wandering, aggression and lots more. I am all for desexing if it is done properly and at the right age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Forget it. ;) Edited November 7, 2006 by molasseslass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Morgan - thanks for your continuing efforts to educate many people on this board to the numerous considerations surrounding desexing. I find your comments articulate, intelligent, courteous and well researched. Personally I find them both enjoyable and educational. Your patience and restraint in the face of numerous frustrating and provocative posts is both commendable and frankly amazing. I rate you as one of the most experienced, knowledgeable, thoughtful and therefore valuable contributors on DOL. Keep up the good work. ;) This thread is interesting. Some people with limited experience with such firm beliefs. The whole coat and height debate has become confused. I think we are talking about desexing young here. In some breeds they will get a thicker, fluffier coat when desexed eg. cocker. Some breeds left entire will get a bigger coat eg. border collie. It all comes down to the individual breed with the coat. I dont think short haired dogs class as "coat". If a dog is desexed at 3 years, of course it is not suddenly going to grow taller. There will probably be a coat change though, if it is one of the breeds affected. The great thing about this forum is that you can always learn something. No matter how much experience and how many years you have or havent been involved in dogs, you never know everything. I find it interesting to read everyones views and think them through before keeping or discarding them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peibe Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 It is true that if you desex a dog before puberty ie 6 months of age then its growth plates do not close and you do end up with a longer legged dog. If you desex female dogs too young, incontinense can become and issue when they are older. If you desex your bitch after its first season then you have the risk of pyometra (uterine infection) and if they have phantom pregnancy and come into milk then they have the risk of developing mammary cancer at a later age. The best age to desex is around 6months of age, and they cope better with an anaesthetic at that age, rather than younger. If you do not use your dogs for breeding purposed then I think you should have them desexed. There are risks of cancers, prostate problems, infections, unwanted pregnancies, wandering, aggression and lots more. I am all for desexing if it is done properly and at the right age. The only incontinent bitches I have had from desexing rescues are ones that are done over 4 years old When it comes down to it, does it really matter that a desexed PET DOG, is hairyer or taller? Sounds snobbish ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toohey Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) When it comes down to it, does it really matter that a desexed PET DOG, is hairyer or taller? I suspect the OP was interested in finding out whether or not it is true or not, and NOT whether or not it matters. With my dogs, the coats bulked up a few months after they were desexed, i believe the age they are desexed was irrelevant. Edited November 7, 2006 by Toohey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 When it comes down to it, does it really matter that a desexed PET DOG, is hairyer or taller? No it doesnt matter at all to pet owners. But the OP was asking our opinion on the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working_Setters Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) I would feel comfortable in declaring that 'most' rescuers don't give a tinkers cuss whether the dog they are rescuing is pure or mongrel.... wrong group sweetheart, you appear to have confused us with elitist breeders. ;) What an interesting comment, given that the rescue group you choose to promote, Pug Rescue Sydney, clearly gives a great deal more than a "tinkers cuss" about a dog's breeding when determining if that dog's life is worth saving. This from the opening page of Pug Rescue Sydney's website: Pug Rescue Sydney is devoted to the Pug breed and understands and appreciates their unique nature. It sure sounds to me like they care about breeding a great deal. Edited November 7, 2006 by Working_Setters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) What an interesting comment, given that the rescue group you choose to promote, Pug Rescue Sydney, clearly gives a great deal more than a "tinkers cuss" about a dog's breeding when determining if that dog's life is worth saving.This from the opening page of Pug Rescue Sydney's website: Pug Rescue Sydney is devoted to the Pug breed and understands and appreciates their unique nature. ;) How arrogant of you to assume that you know anything about my rescue services. ;) Perhaps I should give your pathetic and petty post a little pictorial help that is self explanatory........ Edited November 7, 2006 by Puggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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