GSD Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 We bought a male Pomeranian puppy about a month ago and named him KoKo. He has a very quiet/shy/lazy cuddly type peronality and although my girlfriend dedicated a lot of time looking after him, he could not be left alone at all or else he would be crying. We thought it's not fair for him to be alone and that it would be a good idea to get him a playmate so we bought another male Pomeranian puppy that we named Lou Lou (I'm not too sure about the spelling) and this one had a kind of dominating/very playful type personality. They are both around 8 weeks or so now (Ko Ko is about 2 weeks older than Lou Lou) and ever since they have been together they have been fighting and barking at each other almost all the time except for the times that (surprisingly enough) they sleep right next to each other. At first the problem was toilet training and although we were not succeful at it we managed to allocate a large portion of backyard that is confined by small wooden walls so that if they do their stuff it would not be so hard to clean it and they basically live in that area and have a doggy house in there etc... (The area is covered so sunlight doesn't bother them and they always have access to fresh water) They don't seem to have any problems with where they are but they do seem to have a lot of problems with each other. Either early in the morning or late at night or during the day they bark and fight almost all the time. What should we do? Are those collars that suppress the barking a good idea to at least keep the noise levels down? What is the best approach in this kind of situation? We considered desexing them but it's going to work out very expensive for two puppies and they are not even old enough to be desexed. What can we do? How can we train them to be more friendly and fight less and don't bark so much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EISHUND Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 They are babies, they are playing!!!!! I would definately be desexing these little bubs when they are old enough, it's not "that" expensive, if you're in NSW i can put you on to a good vet with reasonable prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 They should be desexed anyway when they are old enough, given that they probably haven't come from registered breeders and you wont be showing Are they possibly playing? When my two are playing it sometimes sounds like they are fighting, this might be what's happening with your guys. Also, as they mature, two males may fight. It is generally better to have a male and a female rather than two of the same sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSD Posted January 6, 2007 Author Share Posted January 6, 2007 Hmmm I believe they come from registered breeders but I have to confirm that one. Their fights is nothing like playing. I have seen little dogs play and bite each other here and there but these guys are surely fighting. They bark A LOT and they do kind of attack each other and bite etc... Is there anything we should do to at least reduce it? Is it a good idea to feed one before the other to establish one of them as the boss and the other would follow for the most part? Are the collars I mentioned a good idea to supress barking and noise? Yes we do live in Sydney and it would be cool if you could tell us the address or phone number of some vet with reasonable prices. Does desexing solve the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 hang on ... they are both 8 weeks or 8 months ... how old were they when you got them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSD Posted January 6, 2007 Author Share Posted January 6, 2007 I didn't buy them myself my girlfriend did. The first one Ko Ko Just had his second vaccination about a week ago and he is older than the second one by 2 weeks. How old does it make him to be? I believe they are both around 2 to 3 months old no more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissA Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 (edited) Are you REALLY REALLY sure they arent playing? sometimes its really hard to tell We have an 8 week old baby here now - and her idea of playing is launching herself growling really loudly at the adult dogs. Puppies play pretty roughly and they let the other puppy know when they have been hurt by a little squeak, but they continue on pretty much straight away. my stafford boy has a big chuck out of his face from where the baby was play biting him. - and they just keep going Edited January 6, 2007 by MissA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 (edited) ok the ages dont make sense to me. you bought one a month ago and only now it got its second vaccination. A tiny pomeranian puppy should still be with its mother at 8-10 weeks old, I hope that they are older! Pomeranians are people dogs. Why did you buy this breed if you leave them outside in the yard. Plus at that age they are sensitive to the weather, attack from other animals, parasites etc and should be inside. Yes puppies whine but coddling it creates a sooky, clingy dog (especially if it was too young in the first place) puppies play, and make noise. When they wake up, after they eat etc They are teeny tiny doggies how much noise could they possibly make! If you are worried about the hours they play at, crate train them (get a little crate each) and they sleep inside at night in their individual crates. No accidents, no mess and no noise unless they are desperate for a pee. Dont you DARE even think about putting a bark collar on these dogs. They are babies. They are bored and playing with each other get used to it. You should have researched the breed better before going out and getting two of them. Is it fair to have two puppies just sit quietly and stare at each other all day for fear of beign sprayed in the eyes with toxic, stinging citronella? If you DID by them from a registered breeder (which if they were sold at below 8 weeks old they wouldnt be) call them and ask for help as well as breeders know their dogs. And registered as in with the state Canine Council with real papers. Do some searches - Crate Training, House Training - and start implementing them. If they dont learn about it then you will have two dogs you never let inside because they pee everywhere and for poms thats cruel. Also get them desexed (I dont like hearing that too expensive excuse its for your animals welfare) or when they get older you will have dog fights with two entire males. Edited January 6, 2007 by Nekhbet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSD Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 They are old enough to have their second vaccination. So it would be around 3 months or so if I'm not mistaken. The area they have in the backyard is even better than what they would get inside. It is not hot at all since it is under the shade and the building blocks the sunlight. It's a nice cool area that is normally used to have a cup of tea. Perhaps cooler and better venitlated than inside the building. The fence that is around them gives them a large area and they have plenty of toys and fresh water and there are no bugs around to bother them. They are very happy with their place, they would prefer to be there even when we bring them inside. My girlfriend also spends a lot of time with them either playing or training them. Perhaps 5 hours per day and I don't think many people around here are able to spend 5 hours per day with their dogs and it should be understood that you can't be with your pets 24/7 or else not many people would have any pets. We didn't expect them to sit there and stare at each other. In fact we bought them both so that they would play with each other and form a happy small pack. But they are not playing. They bark and attack each other either over toys or a mere bite and it happens almost all the time. How does crate training help to stop them fighting? I'm looking for a way to establish a relationship between these puppies so that they won't fight as much as they do now. I have seen little dogs play but these guys don't play they fight. It is obvious to me since they growl and bark really loud and then attack each other. Fortunately they don't hurt each other but the fighting has to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadia Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Still sounds like play to me. I have been known to get up at 2am and dole out chicken wings to a litter of pups that have been rough housing so loud it is incredible. Pups will stand back and bark madly at each other before launching at each other and scruffing each other around it is normal puppy behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Are you planning on taking the puppies to a well run puppy school for training and socialisation? It is not the length of time that you spend with them that is most important, it is the quality of time- if you spend 5 hours practicing the wrong things- the 5 hours means nothing except you've furthered a problem. If you got one of the pups at under 8 weeks of age you need to get some professional help now to ensure that this puppy doen't have social problems now and later on. Desexing is far less expensive than the problems that can be associated with sntire dogs that do not belong to breeders but NO it is not a magic pill that will solve all your problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Male poms can be very fiesty blitters & i wouldnt have brought 2 males but its already done. Poms whilst being a toy breed & cute & fluffy still need to be treated like any other dog.Spoiling them (the biggest problem with this breed is people try to create little humans & creat monsters) spending 5 hrs a day means nothing if that time is spnet creating bad habits. If they where brought from reg breeders i would suggest you from the breeder up & ask there advice. My friends breed/exhibit poms & i have handled them for many years & a fiesty pom is a rotti in a little body & it sounds like you need help understanding each dogs nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoilt lab lives here Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 They sound like normal playful puppies to me. Ramses will get really rough with sasha to the point where his hackels are raised and he looks like a hyena. At that point i say a firm no and he stops all together but thats because he has played like that from day one. Even with his litter mates. Bark collars for 2 little pom pups would be the biggest waste of money for you at the moment. You are better putting that money into the pups desexing and obedience training at a well run club. Training and desexing is the most important thing for these 2 pups ATM, they are too young to be attacking each other they will learn their limitatins of each other as they grow older and develop pack structure. For the meantime it is better to let the play and learn THEIR OWN limitationns within each other without human intervention. As they get older and you still think they are fighting then would be the time to start reprimanding the "attacker" (the puppy who instigates the fighting). Enjoy your pups while they are babies as they only get older Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rascalmyshadow Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Sounds like very normal puppy behaviour if they are not drawing blood then let them sort it out, they will probably be starting to work out who's boss. I would like to know why you would get two puppies if you can't afford to desex them especially if you are thinking of wasting money on citronella collars etc. If you are having trouble toilet training them now you are going to end up with a lot of problems later if you think the answer is to lock them outside, two adult intact males with no proper toilet training are likely to cock their legs on anything and everything inside the house everytime you let them in. The best advice has already been given find a good dog trainer/obedience class and get as much information/help as possible. Good luck hope it works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSD Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 I highly doubt that sending them to a puppy school will solve the problem of them fighting. They may get toilet trained but I think their fighting has much to do with the breed's temperament that is rather hostile towards other dogs (http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/pomeranian.htm). The fact that both of them are male causes doesnt help either. It is the dominant/playful puppy Lou Lou that starts most of the fights. He goes and bites Ko Ko's tail or growls at him or takes his toys and thats when Ko Ko who is normally quiet gets pissed off and the fights starts (Thats a typical scenario but there is more to it. They even fight over nothing) We would like to establish the pack structure so that the less dominant puppy (ko ko) becomes the boss and the other follows him. Does feeding one before the other help to establish that structure or there is more to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Umm the way pack structure works is that the more dominant dog is the boss . . . not the other way around. You cannot change their temperament like that - they determine it not you. IMO it doesn't matter WHO is dominant, what is important is that there are no problems because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitaowner Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 there have been some good replies here. I too believe they are playing - i dont know Poms but i had 2 pups at my place for a while a couple of months back and they play/rough house all the time - i tend to assume if there is no blood drawn it is PLAYING - puppies have to learn how to act around other dogs and this kind of 'playing' makes them aware of the size bite strength etc. I would suggest that you may like to start to seperate them for periods of time tho as suggested with crates or puppy pens - this gives them a break from each other and makes sure that U will be boss not either of the pups. 2 puppies can be very difficult to raise together - as often the bonding between the 2 is stronger than the bonding with the owners which can cause obedience/seperation problems later. And as said aove you cannot determine who will be 'boss' they will decide between themselves and if you dont desex them i expect you will see some nasty fights as they reach maturity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 These links go to videos of playing pups http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP0LtfcDys0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgie_cat Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 We would like to establish the pack structure so that the less dominant puppy (ko ko) becomes the boss and the other follows him. Does feeding one before the other help to establish that structure or there is more to it? You need to let them chose who will be the dominant and by the sounds of things the other is going to be the boss in the long run (even if he is 2 wks younger) and then feed and pet according to the pack order THEY choose (top dog gets first pats and first feed) Also - everyone claiming that they are playing does not seem to be helping the OP... GSD is the only one actually seeing these pups and maybe they really are having disputes. How can everyone be so sure without actually witnessing the behaviour? I dont know what to do if they are fighting - but maybe someone else on here will come give some good advice - hopefully that wont hurt the pups relationship with each other if it is just playing... (would perhaps distracting the pups with toys or chew things work??) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSD Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 These links go to videos of playing pups http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP0LtfcDys0 No they are much rougher than that. Much much rougher. Thats nothing for these guys. They bark, growl and launch at each other as if it's a dog fight ring. No blood has ever been drawn but they are rougher than what you call as play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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