Santo66

Here is a Channel 7 video for those who may have not seen it

That's actually a very good dog to be able to work in such a difficult environment where the majority of dogs would have backed out of that in the surf and would be an intense dog who could handle that amount of pressure.

When the handler came onto the beach from the water, the dog was lighting up in a big way where the handler was starting to choke him out of the attack to regain composure, there was no simple command and the dog relaxed, he was ramped in fight.

From an earlier thread about supposed protection trained dogs who can bite a sleeve or suit in prey drive and maintain composed obedience, dogs like that won't protect for real outside of a training scenario...exactly what is seen with this police dog is the intensity required in a dog for real protection work that can be relied upon to do the job beyond all else.....unfortunately dogs like that are not the best company at a family BBQ without extreme vigilant management.

I would want the final decision but I would also ask the breeders opinion.

I wouldn't buy a puppy without temp testing the litter first, but I understand why buyers do if they really trust the breeder's opinion or if someone who they trust temp tests the litter for them.

I wouldn't buy from a breeder who assigned pups to homes before or just after they were born. Wisdom is due to whelp a litter just before Christmas and even though we have a lot of interest and some people have been waiting for a pup for over 12 months, no one will be guaranteed or sold a puppy until they are several weeks old and have been temp assessed.

What's the purpose of a tight line breeding 2-2 on Hassan in the pending litter Huski......just interested?

"Santo", there is no point in answering any of your posts when they are always filled ulterior motives.

I am sorry if you feel my posts have ulterior motives, I can assure you it wasn't intentional, my apology :) I was genuinely interested why you would tightly line breed on Hassan what traits he has that perhaps yours didn't have that you were trying to lock into your line?

I don't why people need to mess with a dog's food. It's good to get sit or the dog comply with a command before they are released to eat, but once that's done, leave the dog alone and let them enjoy it. You don't need to stick your finger in the bowl or take it off them to prove a point....that's all a load of crap IMHO. I think many food aggression situations are caused by the owners being stupid, taking dinner away from a hungry dog is understandable it could piss them off......I would get pissed off having a meal out somewhere and the waiter grabbed my plate whilst I was still eating it....It's a no brainer I think.....give the dog dinner and let them eat it in peace.

I would want the final decision but I would also ask the breeders opinion.

I wouldn't buy a puppy without temp testing the litter first, but I understand why buyers do if they really trust the breeder's opinion or if someone who they trust temp tests the litter for them.

I wouldn't buy from a breeder who assigned pups to homes before or just after they were born. Wisdom is due to whelp a litter just before Christmas and even though we have a lot of interest and some people have been waiting for a pup for over 12 months, no one will be guaranteed or sold a puppy until they are several weeks old and have been temp assessed.

What's the purpose of a tight line breeding 2-2 on Hassan in the pending litter Huski......just interested?

I find it is very difficult to pick a puppy at 7/8 weeks in spite of having been a breeder for 37 years.

If possible, I get as much input as I can from the buyer and much prefer them to come and choose for themselves although I also like the buyer to take into account what I think of the various babies.

As i always say "I can be as wrong as anybody else" - and that has been proven quite a few times!!

Great post I was going to say that the breeders who reckon they can choose the right pup for a particular owner are telling lies for the most part unless they have a very good understanding of what the buyer wants in the adult dog.

I'd need to see proof that they actually knew what they were talking about

That's what I do with breeders........why did you breed the bitch, what makes her breed worthy, what does she bring to the table, who's the stud, what does the stud bring to table, why was that stud chosen and how does he complement the bitch, what are they trying to improve etc etc, in fact I have found more breeders who don't know they are doing beyond making puppies....shame about the dud rate

I saw this on the news. It all occurred in the pounding surf and looked like the handler was bitten by mistake in the fray.

It's an example of what can happen in the fray with an operative protection trained dog in heightened fight drive. It was definitely mistake that he bit the handler, but in that state of defence to bring a person down for real, a dog's clarity can become clouded as to who he's chomping on. From another source it was believed that the dog already hold of the offender re-directed as the handler became involved in further subduing the offender in the scuffle. Obviously a very good dog in fight intensity to work whilst encountering the surf environment, an environment that the dog had possibly minimal training to remain focused on the job.

It can happen in the fray with any dog and any handler in lots of situations..

Redirection isn't an uncommon trait in dogs.

Correct it can and when people are protection training pets and teaching them to fight, their vulnerability for suffering re-directions in the fray is much higher than the average pet owner who's dog may only encounter a serious scuffle once in a lifetime if at all.

The point of reference is for people in belief that protection training dogs means super safety, clarity and control where the dog is supreme in discrimination. As in this case, a dog trained in protection who can do the job when keyed up to fight are dangerous, they can re-direct, they can bite the wrong targets, they can get out of control quickly in the fight.....protection training pets needs to be met with extreme caution is what I am getting at.

I saw this on the news. It all occurred in the pounding surf and looked like the handler was bitten by mistake in the fray.

It's an example of what can happen in the fray with an operative protection trained dog in heightened fight drive. It was definitely mistake that he bit the handler, but in that state of defence to bring a person down for real, a dog's clarity can become clouded as to who he's chomping on. From another source it was believed that the dog already hold of the offender re-directed as the handler became involved in further subduing the offender in the scuffle. Obviously a very good dog in fight intensity to work whilst encountering the surf environment, an environment that the dog had possibly minimal training to remain focused on the job.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-21/police-dog-bites-handler-during-beach-scuffle/5107264

Here is a good one after a recent thread where people were discussing the safety of protection trained dogs, what type of character in the dog is required for the job and how they should behave. In this instance the dog re-directed off the offender and onto the handler in an apprehension fight These people training working GSD's and Malinois who are essentially pets in personal protection thinking it's cleaver and safe and bragging about their ability to do so, need to take a reality check of what there are creating

I think expecting people to research before getting a pup that could be a restricted breed is kind of like expecting people to research before buying a loaf of bread. There are millions of them. Everybody has them. They never had a problem previously. Most likely they never even heard the faintest rumor of an issue they might have with it.

For most people, it never occurs to them that their dog might require more of them than a cup of biscuits a day and a rag in some backyard to sleep on.

Some dogs are lucky to get a dog house and I know dogs who survive entirely on food scraps (including cooked chicken bones and similar no no's).

To a lot of people, a dog is not a huge part of their life, not to mention their thought process. Everybody's got one but only very few people actually think beyond that.

That's what happens I agree, but my point is that it's no good blaming the government for their own poor choices and they need to take some responsibility for their own actions as no one forced them to get a restricted breed look a like?? Then there is the blatant "I am having or breeding Pitbulls regardless of the law and they can get stuffed attitude".....just register them as crossbreeds or what the white collar non conformists in the breed did by running Pitbulls off falsified Amstaff paperwork....albeit probably the cleverest option to make a Pitbull comply??.

Whether or not a Pitbull is a threat to the community is a separate debate, but the point is, they are restricted along with assumed crossbreeds of and people need to ensure that their dogs comply otherwise grief will be the obvious outcome if caught with dogs of questionable breed.

On a side note: A niece of mine earlier this year against my better advise bought a Staffy X Lab puppy......a prime candidate to fit the restricted breed criteria, however she said it's not a Pitbull X it's a Staffy cross because they told her that at the pet shop where she bought the pup.......good luck with the ranger on that??

I genuinely feel for people who's dogs are subject of these laws, but what I don't understand is that BSL and restricted breed laws have been around for many years and any time over those years, dogs that may resemble restricted breeds are vulnerable to having restrictions placed upon them. Regardless if the laws were ever policed in the past to any great depth, the laws were still in place so is that too hard when making a decision to get a dog especially an unpapered dog or crossbreed to actually check the laws which all the councils publish to determine if the dog you intend to get complies with laws in place?

Is it too hard to check the laws out in your council area prior to getting a dog, that is you are supposed to register the dog with council anyway and abide by council law and coming across the restricted breed list and having a think gee whizz, I wonder if the Bully pup I want to get is a Pitbull or may look like a Pitbull when it grows up and then because a Pitbull is a restricted breed and getting a pup who's breed is difficult to identify, could getting this Bully pup cause me some grief?

Because of the restricted breed list it's possible that an unidentifiable Bully pup could cause some grief, is it not too hard to be on the safe side well within the law to pass on the unidentifiable Bully pup or crossbreed and buy a papered Amstaff or Stafford from a registered breeder or another breed that looks nothing like a Pitbull instead?

But those haltis sure make me uncomfortable watching the dogs in them

The Halti was designed by someone as a money making exercise.....it's the most stupid and useless dog training tool I have ever encountered and just because someone put it in the market place for sale, shouldn't mean that it needs to be accepted as a valid training tool in any dog training facilities when no dog needs a Halti in order for it to be successfully trained. The whole concept of the thing is wrong from a training perspective exceeding the goal of easier management of an untrained dog whilst it's on the dog's head. The quicker training facilities ban those stupid things the better IMHO

We have the great benefit of a large semi-rural off-leash area.

So often I see other dogs bounding up to mine and their owners yelling their heads off to try and get their dogs to come back. I don't particularly mind over-exuberant dogs and it gives me an opportunity to test my own training skills with my dogs. However, when those other dogs do eventually return to their owners, their owners invariably give them a good thumping.

Does anyone have any advice for these owners?

Return to handler of their own accord should always be a pleasant experience for the dog regardless of what the dog did previously as they live in the moment. Punishment applied is at the wrong end, if they are going to apply punishment is when the dog attempts to bolt with a leash correction then reward for not bolting. A dog is not willingly going to recall to face a good thumping although plenty do it, it's a stupid practice for attempt at training recall.

What are your thoughts about Haltis?

A halti is a management tool for people who want to manage their dog and not train it......I can't understand why a "training" club would use a halti as a compulsory collar which makes no sense at all A halti is a constant aversive whilst on the dog's head....even if they are aversive training with corrections, you need a collar device that can switch on and off........if they are training motivationally.....what's a head collar achieving

"any dog can be capable of biting",

but all breeds can bite.

DOGS ACTUALLY HAVE TEETH AND SOME WILL BITE

Very true I totally agree, but what I don't get is when professionals require a dog to bite and cause some damage in a working role, why don't they use just "any dog" on the basis that they all have teeth and they can all functionally bite? Why do they use specific breeds and character types when the ability to bite is said to be not breed and character specific?

Yeah I don't see many real Bullmastiffs around. Can count on one hand the purebred ones I have seen. And that would include a couple of french ones.

I don't see many (any) pitbulls either though. Maybe it is were I live. Just a couple of not well breed staffies.

I have never seen two dogs labelled Pit bull's that look the same. One I know and believe is a genuine Pit bull was quite a small female aside from the red nose could be anything to the untrained eye really? I guess when someone is intrigued by a long coat GSD's "unusual colouring" for a Husky, breed identification isn't healthy

This is my theory - right or wrong - no idea but a theory. Mastiff has became the label for large x bully breed dog. Five years ago they were pitbulls for the slightly smaller bully crosses and mastiff for the larger ones. But the 'considered bad' pitbull name is dropped off a bit and any shorthaired, big headed cross dog is a mastiff. BUT 10 years ago, or so, these dogs were called BULL ARABS - a large shorthaired bully cross designed to chase and catch pigs. NOW the BULL bit is added to the MASTIFF bit by mistake and so becomes the BULL MASTIFF. Most, probably all, people who use this term don't even know what a real bull mastiff even looks like and I don't think many of these dogs even have it in their parentage at all.

I used to have a large black dog (pet shop special from my husbands first family). He looked like a very tall/large lab with straight back legs. He was always referred to as a lab*mastiff. I doubt he had any actual bull mastiff in him but something short haired and big. BULL ARAB type dog I expect.

Not a bad theory Pepe......probably is in the ballpark.

There are heaps of these sort of dogs around here. Most of them have a small amount of white on them. I've often wondered if they came from the same petshop. They aren't super friendly either.

It's unfair that dogs are incorrectly labelled as breeds they are not, but we can't ignore the fact that some of these Bully X breed concoctions can have some serious aggression....the worse dog aggression with serious intensity to hurt another dog I have seen are generally from these type of dogs. A lot of different breeds and mixtures bark and jump around at other dogs and flex a bit of muscle but most with a good "piss off" command will move them on......I don't know why "piss off" seems to work so well, it must be the tone or Cesar Milan whisper perhaps :laugh: but I don't like getting charged at by these Bully type dogs....they make my heart thump harder in that position than other breeds how I am going to handle the situation and try to protect my dog if this dog descending on us at a great rate of knots flashing teeth is a real goer

They are obviously offering good money for existing practices, but I don't see as an operator or franchisee any benefits for a vet to run under Greencross other getting ripped off on franchise fees and sharing income with them. Vets are usually a local thing that sells service and gains reputation....having Greencross written on the front window will probably cause avoidance if they are ripping people off....what does a Vet chain have to offer anyone

Lots .... on paper. Why does any franchising organisation exist?

Not everyone is cut out to be a business man or woman, but they might want to, ostensibly, run their own business and be self-employed.

Of course, it depends on the franchise operation, but they generally provide advertising, sometimes an existing clientele, business training, commercial support, backup, etc etc etc.

Just because someone trains to be a vet, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are good with people, staff, animals even.

What they don't factor into any franchises is the amount of extra clientele it takes to pay the franchise fees. There won't be too many vets in any one area and doesn't take too much for a private practice to be a bit cheaper, provide a better service for a franchised practice to loose business. I see that a private practice would be more profitable for the owner than a franchisee after the franchisor has taken their cut off the top?

Overheads have a lot do with it too. Our vet told us off the record their rent on their premises was 8K per month......the ripping off begins from above unfortunately and gets passed down the line in many cases.

Not that this has a lot to do with anything, but afaik, Greencross is owned by some vets, and is not franchised. But that information is a couple of years old, so it may have changed, but the idea was not to franchise the clinics.

Some are franchised, but their main aim is to just buy vet practices and take them over (they also do joint ventures and mergers).

They are obviously offering good money for existing practices, but I don't see as an operator or franchisee any benefits for a vet to run under Greencross other getting ripped off on franchise fees and sharing income with them. Vets are usually a local thing that sells service and gains reputation....having Greencross written on the front window will probably cause avoidance if they are ripping people off....what does a Vet chain have to offer anyone

I don't think there are enough Bull Mastiff's around in the BYB system to be producing all these cross breed dogs. It appears anything of a Staffy X origin larger in appearance than a staffy is wearing a Mastiff label? There are heaps of Staffy X's in the BYB system to be further crossed with larger dogs to produce these dogs labelled Mastiff is what I am thinking?

I don't get it, why aren't they allowed to state that it was a bull mastiff now?? If it actually was a bull mastiff then what's the problem, if they reported that it was a lab or a cocker spaniel no one would be jumping up and down. They can't just change what breed it was to make it more acceptable to those are worried about BSL...

I bet it wasn't a properly bred Bull Mastiff from a dedicated breeder......it will be another BYB concoction probably run off aggressive dogs in the first place.

Exactly Alison. My son can be overly boisterous with the dogs at times as he's still learning. When he's like that though I seperate them from each other. Dogs get to lay on the bed (which is a treat for them) and I have a quick chat to my son about how we must be gentle. After he's calmed down we all play together again. He's being taught to not approach dogs at the moment. He has to ask me first, I will ask the owner and we proceed from there. Toddlers have no fear and it's my responsibility to ensure he doesn't invade a dogs space without permission.

How nice it is to see a parent providing good dog education to their children......sadly few do these days which doesn't help children avoid the consequences of improper handling of a dog. I had a woman not long ago going off her rocker at me for telling her child that my dog may bite her when she ran over to me trying to cuddle my dog. She ran up from behind me and didn't see her until she was almost on top of us, mother is standing their watching her little daughter approaching a strange dog, but telling her daughter he may bite is scaring kids of dogs.......good.....it might prevent her head getting taken off approaching the wrong dog.

My parents (dog people) taught us that dogs can bite and how to approach and handle them and didn't do me any harm knowing the truth of what can happen and it definitely didn't affect my love for dogs, however it taught me to respect their space.

You can only build on what the dog has there genetically to harness, but it doesn't need to be super high drive dog to respond well to rewards/drive work.

However, IMO if you want to be competitive you are best off seeking a dog with superior genetics and temperament, Daisy can still work in drive but her actual drive "tank" is small so she could never work as hard or as long as our Malinois. There is a reason most competitors select high drive working breeds. That doesn't mean other dogs are write offs or not worth the effort :)

Correct absolutely

I really think it's a bit rich to say that Beagles would be well trainable in Obedience.

If they were well trainable in obedience why aren't they there? Why do they have a reputation for being difficult to train?

Well, what I have seen of them in detection roles and obedience in that role, there are pretty good :D

Out of interest, what type of work and/or competition do you train for?

Protection/security/apprehension, tracking/search and rescue

As the majority of us are not professionals nor do our dogs 'work' for a living, we don't 'wash out' or rehome dogs which prove more challenging, or don't have as much drive, or are independent, or more easily distracted, or motion sensitive etc. Sure I try to do my research on breeders, bloodlines etc but in the end you work with the dog you have, they all provide challenges.

Of course we work with what we have, I am not suggesting that we don't, but my point was in regard to washouts and professional trainers selling programs based on their own dogs performances....they are selling training programs not dogs to be mindful of....breeder will say they bred an awesome dog, trainer will say their training is awesome...what's the truth

What I was talking about from the onset of this discussion to get the best performance out of what you have what ever that may be, there is no one training program that will work equally as well on every dog. I have seen in commercial training and clubs, high drive dogs dangling on choke chains for misbehaviour because the club can't use drive to train, same as clubs with low drive dogs applying high drive programs etc etc.....a lot of trainers out there working methods not training dogs is what I am getting at.....what method or training tools are best depends on the dog and owner. Just from my own experience with different dogs, I have used as many prong collars as I have used treat or toy reward exclusively, it just depends??.

One of mine was trained in tracking a lot with an ecollar.....the other is no good on an ecollar at all, he get's aggressive and looses drive for the scent.......so if someone asked me if an ecollar is good for tracking......it may be depending on the dog, it may not either :)

She is not talking about Beagles in scent detection roles She has had great success with her own pet Beagle in obedience, great job!

Beagles adapt extremely well to food reward and are generally high in food drive being the method used in the detector dogs......so I could imagine a Beagle well trainable in obedience using the drives they have?

That is what I like about her, she stresses that even professional trainers have challenges with their dogs, the same challenges that everybody else faces. They do not automatically have perfect tugging dogs which give them focus in the face of high distractions.

That's a very simple thing to determine how much focus a dog has in the face of high distraction and many professional trainers wash dogs out that don't measure up.....they even sell their washouts to Australians who don't know the real reason they are for sale. Commercial trainers always make out their champion dog was crap by nature and their training program made a silk purse out of sows ear...it's how they sell training programs, didn't you know that When the training program purchased doesn't work because the dog doesn't have the right drives to support it, they tell the owner they are not applying the program properly :laugh:

Can positive training ever really work for everyday amateurs like myself in terms of giving as high an obedience level as possible or will i always be worrying that something is more interesting to him then me?

Back to the OP's original question above........IMHO success depends on the dog's genetic aptitude to adapt to handler induced reward above all else :D

Your foundation work in engagement has helped your newer dog to seek to engage in the handler. While having good drive makes this easier, having high drive is not what has done this, the training is. A high drive dog without such training would not automatically seek engagement with the handler. You still have to put in the work.

While Susan Garrett has Border Collies, she also has JRT, and has a journal of how she transformed a rescue JRT that showed no interest in a ball or toy of any kind and no interest in engaging with the handler into a flyball champion. Not all of her students have super high drive Border Collies either. She is committed to helping students bring out the best in their dogs.

I think everybody understands that high drive dogs, and dogs with certain temperaments are easier to train up to higher levels. Why else would we choose certain breeds and research breeders and bloodlines and look carefully at individual pups? Nobody is disputing that.

But understanding how to build value for working with you, how to get the dog to engage with you, and play with you for whatever reward, is also very beneficial to dogs without high drive. You may have to work harder for it and experiment more and have some lateral thinking, which you may not have to do with a dog that has high drive and biddable temperament. But that does not mean it can't be done.

A JRT is an extremely high drive breed, in fact if they were bigger, they would be almost in Malinois country.....I have trained some JRT's and they are a super little dog and very intelligent. It could be an environmental effect or previous issues with Susan's JRT why it didn't have drive response initially, but it still amounts to the genetic drive within the dog to extract it.......you cannot make a ball crazy dog out of a dog low in prey drive.....if a training regime extracted drive, the drive was there in the first place :)

High drive dogs are more work as a general pet I have found where higher level training becomes a necessity as they can easily become a pain in the arse to live with :laugh: My younger GSD is laying on the floor snoozing.....when I move from this chair, he will be up ready for action bouncing around in my face "what are we doing, are we going to play"......we will probably do a focused heel into the kitchen to stop him ramping up too high and smashing into the furniture High drive DOES present other challenges I can attest to that!!

My beagle is moderately driven and I put a lot of work into harnessing her drive and channeling it into working for me. It was hard work but enjoyable and we got pretty awesome results. I have a before and after video somewhere if anyone would be interested in me posting it I will dig it up :)

We find we have great results with our training in drive program with a range of dogs, not just dogs with high drive though obviously they do really well with that style of training.

I think as much as people look at really high drive dogs and see how awesome they can work, it's not as easy as you might assume and handling dogs like that comes with its own challenges.

When I went from my beagle to our working line Malinois I thought awesome, this is going to be so much easier. It's not easier overall. It's just different and you face challenges with both types of dogs.

There are some pretty awesome Beagle's out there in scent detection roles trained in food drive, but like all working roles, the dogs are individually selected based on the drives best suited in these roles and adaptability to the training that achieves it :)

I find it interesting Santo that you keep wanting to blame the dog. The dog is what it is. Our job is to get us working well as a team and work towards whatever our goal is.

All of your training problems will not be fixed by having a high drive dog lol.

Ok let me explain:

My youngest GSD (working line)has food drive, will leave food for a ball, will leave a ball for a tug toy, will leave a tug toy for a bite sleeve in that order. The dog has learned the game in foundation training from a puppy, but the drive intensity to earn those rewards is in the dog......training merely extracts it.

My older GSD in comparison although he didn't have the foundation training the younger one had, he has food drive to a point, will chase a ball twice then tires of it, will bite a tug toy once or twice then tires of it, would rather sniff and mark territory than engage with a handler where the younger dog is almost painful attention seeking in drive to engage with the handler, all he wants to do is play and indoors most of his training is teaching to remain in a relaxed state......I understand fully why dogs like this are often kennelled, bought out for training then put away as the drive intensity and handler focus is off the wall and is hard to control and maintain composure.

Because of the drive, the intensity for handler engagement and to earn reward which is in the dogs genetics, using that genetic structure in training and primarily the drive training was from the Ivan Balabanov tapes and some of Mike Ellis, the genetic drive is channelled into use to gain a behaviour which will not work to this degree with a low drive dog, not even close in fact. These professional people are NOT using low drive dogs including Susan Garrett......they are using the drive in the dog to get the performance

This misconception is this:

I mentioned earlier in this discussion about a working line GSD desexed female pet out of control and relegated to the back yard.....she was of similar bloodlines to my younger male and she had no foundation training whatsoever. Within seconds of waving a tug toy in her face, she bit it instantly and tugged like an old pro.....she had never seen a tug toy previously in her life.....within 30 minutes we were getting a behaviour and release for reward.......my older GSD will still not produce over 6 years what this girl did in 30 minutes.......that's in the dog, not the training :)