FANG

Far out, that Ziwipeak sure is expensive! Also, it says on the ingredients that it is "chicory syrup" and on the website ingredients section it describes it as "chicory inulin". I think it's evidence that it is essentially sugar, not fibre. I don't trust it.

Last night I tried feeding them Vets All Natural for the first time, and they threw up a lot of bits of bone. A few of the bits were flat and looked like cuttlefish but they were really hard. I am very unimpressed and will be returning the remaining packets I bought.

I think I might just mix Artemis with meat and yoghurt.

Aside from meat and bones, what does a raw diet entail? Just vegies and eggs? If I bought packets of prechopped vegies and mixed that with meat and eggs, would that get me out of the preparation time? But then what supplements would I need to buy on top of that?

Just in regards to Gillespie, have you ever looked at what Dieticians say about his work?

I don't know what job you do, but I spend a fair amount of time reading scientific articles. Part of why scientists do research is to build a 'body of knowledge' about a particular phenomenon. Each piece of research fits into this body of knowledge, and there will be variation and sometimes contradictions. That's why it's important to look at the body of knowledge developed from many research reports, and understand how their methods and findings fit into what's known about the phenomenon. Picking a few research reports here and there and interpreting them to suit your argument is not a good way to develop a body of knowledge; yet that is what Gillespie did.

Yes I have, but I am yet to be convinced that what he says is wrong (although I am open to the possibility of this). He does also regularly refer to studies that demonstrate the opposite of what he is saying, but he then explains exactly how those studies may be flawed. That's a big part of why I find his argument so compelling.

I've been feeding my dogs on Scotty's Pro Peak natural cooked rolls/ and Boomer working dog kibble for as long as I can remember,from puppy to geriatric,they always have good weight and coats,and have lived to a good age,2 boxers 12 and 14,Scotty's does contain rice and barley which might not suit some dogs,and I don't have a boomer bag at present to check the ingredients,but have a look for yourself on the web site,

I only give my dogs a small amount of kibble at night and the meat in the morning

would be good to hear opinions from others tho? in case theres something I haven't found with it.

Scotty's doesn't have any ingredients on its website, and apparently isn't available in my state.

Boomer Working Dog ingredients:

Wholegrains, meat & meat by-products derived from beef & sheep, grain byproducts, poultry meal, tallow, oil from vegetable seeds, kelp, garlic, iodised salt, vitamins A, B2, D, E, K & trace minerals - calcium, phosphorus, potassium (K), zinc. Manganese & calcium propionate (anti-mould). Natural Prebiotic.

I wouldn't feed my dogs this kibble... The seed oils, vitamin K and by-products are very concerning. It also doesn't specify the kind of grains and it is not a good sign that grains are the first listed ingredient.

Maybe your dogs have really good genes!

Hmmmmmm....there is LOTS of "scientific research" out there. What about the "scientific research" that goes into making a top quality dog food. Scientific Research is a bit like every book you pick up...always titled "worlds best seller". Still don't understand why you don't just collect the road kills down there....they are in abundance & as someone has already said..you don't cook RAW. You are so concerned with your dogs diet, yet you don't cook or yourself..

I don't really know what you're getting at. Gillespie doesn't appear to have an agenda and scrutinises the quality of research that has been published in journals. He doesn't claim to know everything, and in some of his explanations he points out that not enough is known about certain aspects of nutrition.

Just because I live in Tasmania does not mean I live out in the bush...

Cooking... preparing... same thing! Either way it takes more time than I already don't have.

I may not cook for myself, but I do eat reasonably healthily.

Fang, If you are really interested in this stuff it would be better to find proper scientific papers and not rely on David Gillespie.

Try Artemis if it ticks all the boxes. If it doesn't agree with him then I really think you should look into raw.

You don't need time to cook, you don't cook anything - its raw :)

Most of the stuff you need (if not all) can be found at your local supermarket. Variety is the key. Things like hearts, liver, kidneys, chicken feet, chicken necks are all good food for dogs and very cheap.

David Gillespie provides references to the scientific papers that his books are based on!

Thank you for the advice. I am going to look into trying out Artemis and Vets All Natural... I think the best thing will be a mixture of kibble and raw food.

I feed mostly BARF (it makes up about 90% of their diet) but I do give the dogs a small amount of dry in the morning. I feed Artemis and it doesn't have any of the ingredients you mention.

Good luck in your search!

Thank you, Artemis looks like it has good ingredients! It seems to have a lot in common with Eaglepack Holistic and Canidae though, which didn't agree with Tyson's stomach so well. And it's not available in Tasmania, but I will enquire about having it shipped!

You don't need a lot of time or money to feed raw , IMO, it need not be a science project :)

A variety of meats/bone/offal , and in the case of dogs, a small amount of veg, plus eggs, yoghurt and some cereal if you want .

The breeder of my dogs said that one should add heaps of vitamins and minerals and stuff to ensure their diet is balanced, and that it does end up being really time consuming and expensive. I don't have time to cook for myself, so I also don't have time to cook for my dogs. I am always burning the candle at both ends, as it is.

I've become aware that scientific research indicates that polyunsaturated seed oils cause cancer and heart disease in humans.

Really? Thats interesting.

If you want more details, check out Toxic Oil by David Gillespie.

polyunsaturated seed oils cause cancer and heart disease in humans.

may I be so bold as to suggest that the AMOUNT and the carriers of oils may have a lot to do with it ?

Someone who uses small amounts of these oils on salads, or to quickly cook meats , and someone who eats deep fried foods, baked pastries ...Hmmm now which one of those may be ingesting too much /rancid/chemically changed oils and risking their health??

The scientific research has taken these things into account, and the results of these studies indicate that saturated fat is not the cause of heart disease; polyunsaturated fat and sugar is.

If what the OP claims is true, then there must be an awful lot of sick dogs out there. I Googled Yucca Extract & couldn't find one claim against, it. Why would manufacturers put Yucca Extract & Inulin in their food if it is going to poison our dogs?? I cannot understand, why, if the OP is so paranoid about things in dry dog food, why she doesn't just feed RAW Lots of people have differing opinions on these things, so to be sure...why not just feed Raw. It doesn't make sense that she doesn't have the time to feed raw & it certainly doesn't have to be expensive, compared to premium brand dry.

ETA...if I lived in Tassie like the OP does I would be feeding road kills, as there is no lack of them down there....a good source of fresh free meat. :)

http://www.aspca.org/Pet-care/poison-control/Plants/yucca.aspx

Yucca is meant to make animals' faeces smell less foul, that's why.

http://sweetpoison.wikidot.com/inulin

Let me put it to you that sugar and polyunsaturated oils have been added to human foods for over 100 years because they taste good and they are cheap. They do not kill humans immediately; the process is very gradual. Now, consider that there are preservatives and meat products added to some dog foods that are banned from human consumption (such as Menadione Sodium Bisulfate). If you put a minute amount of bleach in someone's food every day, it'll take a long time for them to get sick, but they will get sick eventually.

Feed dry for over 30 yrs all dogs live a very healthy long life.

We deal with alot of dogs in the kennels who are diabetics & it isn't due to the dry but all the crap people feed.Schmackos,pigs ears & the list goes on

The current fad we are seeing is people feeding barf but most have no clue what it is ,The buy the cheap stuff.the dogs are severely underweight & so unhealthy looking .

There isn't a cheats version but it isn't hard to do it right.

The problem is these same people then feed treats that totally counteract the point of barf ^ they don't get it

I tried it on one of my dogs & it was a total disaster & wouldn't feed it again unless it suited .

.

The best for me is what suits that dog & what one feeds as a whole package .

People should feed what suits each dog & sometimes it may be something that goes against your ideals.

I now die hard barf feeders whose dogs are always sick so im not a believer in it being the best .

Yes there are food to avoid or feed in minimal amounts

What's wrong with pigs' ears?

I just wonder if the average lifespan of dogs could be increased if we perfected their diet...

I have two Boxers and two cats. I have recently been investigating various kibbles since discovering that the Nutro dry food I've been feeding Tyson has sunflower oil in it. After reading one of David Gillespie's books, I've become aware that scientific research indicates that polyunsaturated seed oils cause cancer and heart disease in humans. I assume it would be the same story with dogs, and since I know Boxers are prone to cancer, I am very concerned by this. It turns out that most dry foods contain either soya oil, canola oil or sunflower oil, which is a real worry.

I have also read through this website: www.dogfoodproject.com . I am not entirely sure if the information is trustworthy, but it seems to be. Most of the kibbles that don't contain polyunsaturated seed oils seem to fail based on the website's recommendations of what to look for. The only kibble that passes is Eaglepack, but I am concerned that one contains inulin and the other contains yucca schidigera extract. Inulin is a fructan, which essentially has the same effect on the body as fructose (the part of sugar that cause heart disease, diabetes, dementia, obesity, cirrhosis of the liver, kidney disease, and most of the other lifestyle diseases we're faced with in the western world). Yucca is a plant that is poisonous. Obviously the poison is in the dose, and the yucca schidigera extract used in many dog foods clearly doesn't have any immediate toxic effect, but I am a bit worried about what the long term effects might be.

I am now really unsure what to feed my dogs and cats, as I really don't have the time or money to feed them BARF. Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions?

I have a 2 year old white Boxer. He is allergic to most sunscreens and although I did eventually find one that his skin doesn't seem to react to, he always licks it off anyway, so I feel like there's no point putting it on him.

For the last month or so he's had these strange scabs on one side around his mouth area. I think they may have started after I fenced off some trees in the backyard, because I think he tried to get through the chicken wire and I'm guessing that's why he ended up with scratches on his face and head.

Anyway, I am pretty worried about these ones on his face, because they have been there for some time now and I would have thought they'd be healed up by now. I have been putting petrolium jelly on them at night and telling him not to lick it off (for some reason, he seems to listen to me a lot more when it's petrolium jelly than when it's sunscreeen). This seems to be helping a little bit, but I still think they're taking a long time to heal.

I am sorry this photo is really poor, as my camera is only 5 megapixels. I know I should just go to the vet, but I am a uni student and I'm really stressed about money right now. I will definitely take him if it's serious, but I thought I would post on here to try and find out if it is first.

So can anyone who knows about this stuff tell me: does it look like cancer to you? If not, is it something else that's serious or can it wait til his check up in May? Are there any guides for what to look out for with regards to skin cancer? I know this is something I need to be on the look out for, so I am always feeling paranoid but kind of helpless about it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

I'm just wondering if anyone has any suggestions about how I could stop my white Boxer from licking sunscreen off his pink nose? He is normally very obedient and he knows what "no licking" means, but it's almost as though he can't help but start licking as soon as I apply sunscreen to his nose... It makes the whole exercise seem kind of pointless! I am really worried about him getting skin cancer. I would be most grateful if anyone has any ideas or suggestions. Thanks

Okay so antibiotics got him totally back to normal... We haven't had any more accidents and he lasts the night. I recently had him in to redo his blood & urine tests, and they came back normal, so the weird liver function value was nothing to worry about. Yay!

Fang,

I had similar symptoms with my old boy Luigi. He was 12 when he first started drinking heaps of water and having accidents overnight, gradually getting worse.

Multiple blood and urine tests all came back normal. The vet thought is was diabetes but it wasn't. He then thought it was bladder cancer. But it wasn't. We tried propalin (sp) and it seemed to work and then it didn't. We finally ended up at a Vet Specialist.

It turned out that Luigi had a tumour on the adrenal gland (his left adrenal was 4 times larger than his right one).

This was diagnosed by ultrasound because none of his blood or urine samples were ever abnormal. The worst that they were was a little bit on the dilute side of normal.

The water drinking compensated for the effect of the tumour but made him pee more which led to accidents when he was asleep.

The tumour produced adrenaline in spikes so the levels were never constantly elevated and as a result his drinking was not constant.

The specialist commented that a lot of animals that have this sort of tumour eventually die of stroke - the sudden rise in adrenaline causes the blood pressure to spike.

It was a major operation to remove the tumour but Luigi had a good life until he was almost 16 when old age caught up with him.

Wow, thanks for telling me this!

I just spoke with the vet and there were some abnormalities in the blood and urine:

Liver function is 350, whereas normal is 10-120. Apparently it is mainly a concern if it goes above 400, but it's still outside the normal range.

White blood cells are 370 and normal is 0-20. Red blood cells are 90 and normal is 0.

The urine culture had bacterial growth, so he has a UTI.

He is going on antibiotics for a couple of weeks and then the tests are to be repeated again in a month... hopefully the liver function will be back to normal then. I will let you know how it all goes.

Do you fill his water bowl in the mornings and leave it all day, and then he only drinks it at night?

My dog has re-occurring hormonal incontinence. I find it mostly re-occurs when she has been drinking excessive amounts of water. So I tend to fill up her bowl during the day when necessary, then in the evenings after her last wee (at @7pm) I will only put a small amount in her bowl. Its usually still there when I go to bed, but gone in the morning when I fill her bowl up again. It has helped enormously with reducing any nocturnal accidents.

There was a thread in General recently about withholding water from dogs. It generated quite a robust discussion, but I personally believe that minimising water intake just before bed and during the night should not be an issue, considering they will get most of their intake during the day and should be sleeping at night.

Just like humans. ;)

Yes, I notice very little water intake has occurred during the day and it is usually in the evening that he drinks most of his water. I think what you're doing sounds very reasonable. Would you by any chance be able to provide a link to the thread about withholding water?

Then I just can't imagine it's as dilute as you think, because as I said, it's not physically possible for a dog to be polyuric without being polydipsic - they go hand in hand.

Well that would be the logical thing, which is why I am confused! His urine is not always really dilute. I have just noticed that when he's had his accidents, it rarely has any colour to it at all and it's been quite clear from his behaviour around the time of the accident that it has happened because he has needed to pass a large amount of urine. As I said in my previous post, he urinated for almost a minute and a half just six hours prior to his most recent accident.

Normal water intake for a dog is approximately 100ml per kg. That's the easy calculation. There's a bit of give and take. As it's winter less water intake would be expected, but less intake would mean that it isn't dilute (as it still is removing salts so therefore is more likely to be concentrated if they aren't drinking much). I know that Em was tricksy with her water intake she was always locked in the house with 1 water bowl when we did a water test as she would drink from every pot plant, bucket, puddle she could find!!!!

There is definitely no other possible water source in the house. I know this, because my cats are obsessed with water and will take any opportunity they can to drink from a source that is not their own, even if it's dirty dishes left to soak in the sink! I am 99% sure the only other outdoor source would be the birdbath, but as I said before, it was definitely empty when I started monitoring his water intake. I just checked the weather for last week and it rained 4.0mm on Tuesday and 2.8mm on Wednesday and has been raining every day since then, so I guess that explains why he drank almost 1.5 litres in the first 24 hours and then only about a litre a day since then. I will try emptying it again when it stops raining and see what happens.

Em seemed to have slight incontinence (presented as periodic incontinence maybe a couple of times a month when I first got her as a 9yo) so we put her on Stilboestrol. That worked brilliantly for about 12-18 months. She was always a big drinker, got her bloods done early when she first came to live with me - no problems at all, perfect!!!! The Stilboestrol stopped working (apparently this is not uncommon), so we changed her on to Propalin. Again worked really well, then I started seeing a few accidents again. Did urine and bloods early 2010, came back with nothing. Started looking into testing for Cushing's as that testing was more complex and also discussed testing for diabetes insipidus. Did a water test for her (she drank 2.3L as a 17kg dog = 500ml too much). So then did urine again in April 2010 (after her incontinence was getting worse) not long after the water. Came back with really high sugar in her blood. Immediately did a spot BGL and it was high, within a week she was on twice daily insulin. Apparently in dogs diabetes can often show up in this way - out of the blue, not many symptoms leading up to it and not necessarily showing up clearly in early tests. Anyway she did really well until the October, then went completely blind within 2 weeks from diabetes induced cataracts. We had surgery to remove them. Lots of complications followed. She also had a bug in her lungs and developed pneumonia in April this year (diabetics are exceptionally susceptible to infections). This then caused her to become hyperglycaemic and we spent 3 months trying to battle getting her BGL back to what it should be. Then 12 July she was not good, thought it was due to incorrect insulin dose, was actually kidney failure and she was PTS that day (her kidneys were totally shot and there was no course of treatment that would have ensured her any quality of life). She'd had bloods done maybe a month earlier and everything was great, then everything fell apart.

So a huge trail of issues, and I was doing blood tests every 6 months on her and very regular urine testing. Sometimes things just come up suddenly and you just do what you can.

In all honesty through all of this it also came down to me trusting my gut. There were times when I kept up with following up little hints that something wasn't right and I do have a very supportive vet who would always recommend appropriate testing and do whatever testing I asked for - it served us well in her treatment and diagnosis. But the 2 biggies - diabetes and kidney failure - took all of us by suprise because she wasn't presenting as having typical symptoms of those until the day of diagnosis.

Thank you for sharing. I am sorry for your loss... it sounds like a very painful experience for the both of you.

I spoke with the vet yesterday and he agreed that full blood work and urine analysis would be a good idea, so it was sent off this afternoon. I will post again when I have the results.

No, the vet didn't say his urine was dilute, that's just been my observation whenever he's had an accident.

It's possible he was drinking from the birdbath... I did empty it a week ago, but it rained a few days later. So I know that for the first few days he definitely wasn't drinking from it and there are no other water sources aside from his water bowls.

Okay so I have been monitoring his water intake for a week now, and here is what I have observed:

- The most he's had to drink in a 24 hour period is 1.5 litres. He weighs 25kg, so I think that is a normal amount to drink.

- He does seem to not drink for a long period and then drink most of his water for the day in one go.

He has had a couple of accidents again, despite me waking up to take him out at least once during the night. The most telling example occurred this morning. Last night I took him out to pee at no earlier than 10:30pm. I watched him while I listened to the clock ticking and he urinated for almost a minute and a half. Then at 4:30am I woke up because he rang the bell. I let him out and checked his bed. There were a couple of drops of urine on it and a reasonable sized puddle on the treadmill next to his bed. When I cleaned it up I noticed there was very little colour, so it was very dilute.

When the vet examined him, she said he was well hydrated. I don't understand how he can be producing so much dilute urine when he is drinking a normal amount. I am waiting for the vet to call me back.

I'd be getting a second opinion on that and quickly.

I'd suggest you get some help for his behavioural issues also.

I have tried getting help for his behavioural issues, believe me! He is actually very well trained and obedient, but he just gets immensely excited around people and other dogs. The vet said that it's normal for a Boxer of his age.

I'd be looking for a second opinion. When Em was incontinent we discussed "Psychogenic Polydipsia", but it was recommended to do other testing as it is not often that is the only issue going on. Given what I've gone through in the last 18 months with medical issues with Emma - and all of it stemmed from the symptoms of drinking a bit much and having incontinence - I would strongly recommend making sure every other problem is ruled out. Full bloods should cost you less than $200 and compared to what it could cost if it is a bigger underlying problem I'd say it could be some of the best money spent even if only for peace of mind.

The vet said that the urine tests showed his kidneys are functioning properly and the glucose result was normal too, so she said it wouldn't be diabetes or a problem with his kidneys. She also said that he seemed very well and that it was therefore very unlikely to be diabetes. I am worried about him, but the vets explanation makes sense to me and I am really stressed about money at the moment... :/

Thank you everyone for your responses.

I took him to the vet this morning and she examined him and tested his urine. She said everything seemed perfectly normal and there was no need to do a blood test. She diagnosed Psychogenic Polydipsia, which is when a dog will drink too much but for no good reason. She said it is common for neurotic dogs (he is very; whenever I leave the house or have people over he goes berserk) to drink too much just for something to do. It also helps to explain the inconsistency of the problem. She said I should try to measure exactly how much he is drinking every day for the next five days to be sure.

I have a male Boxer who will be two years old on 10 November this year. He is toilet trained, though initially I had some problems because he would never tell me when he needed to go, but after I installed a bell at the back door and taught him to ring it, that issue was resolved.

Sometimes he drinks too much water, goes to sleep and then doesn't wake up until he's already urinating. There will then be urine on his bed and a trail of urine to me or to the door. The urine is always very dilute and usually without any colour at all. Recently this has been happening more frequently. It has happened three times in the last week; it happened once a few weeks before that and then once about a month before that. Prior to that he hadn't had an accident in many months. About a year or less ago I had his urine tested due to this problem and was told there was nothing wrong with it.

I am hesitant to restrict his water supply, but I don't know what else to do. The vet suggested I take him out in the middle of the night, even though he has almost always lasted the whole night for well over a year now. This morning at around 3am I got up and woke him up to offer him to go outside but he showed no interest. At around 4:30am I was woken by him coming into my bedroom and urinating everywhere... again with a trail of urine from his bed.

Does anyone have any advice? Needless to say, I am really frustrated!

Yeah I thought the way it was written was very unscientific and dodgy... the concept made sense though.

What happens if a dog gets too much calcium? I didn't realise that could be bad...

http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/dog%...%20Saponins.htm

These are really common ingredients in dog foods. The article's claims are rather alarming, but I am sceptical given that it is clearly written in a sensationalist way to promote a product. So what do you think? Are we all poisoning our dogs or is this just propaganda?

I got mine last week for my cat. He didn't like it, but I think that it was because he didn't like me forcing him to be still, not because it was hurting him. It worked just like the videos show, but only time will tell whether or not it has a significant effect on shedding.

I got it off eBay for about $35.

Yeah, I'm definitely planning to do lots of research before getting a puppy. I want to get it right next time. This time has been very painful for me.

Thanks for your advice. Sorry I misunderstood your other post!

I seriously don't leave the house very often! I have a couple of classes at uni each week and grocery shopping and occasionally appointments and errands, but that's about it. I think that's why I managed to keep Ivy for 2 months and initially didn't even realise there was a problem!

Where are your dogs located and what breed are they? After my experience with Ivy, I'm very wary about getting an adult dog again. I'd rather wait until I can afford to buy a puppy from a really good breeder and ensure that I can raise it properly. The problem with getting a dog as an adult is that one has no control over its genetics or its previous environment.

I would, but I'm not sure a Rottweiler is for me. I think I'm going to have a bit of a break before I get another dog. I'm really sad because I just want Ivy back

Hehe! I think people get sick of me talking about dogs so much as well. It's lucky we can come here, isn't it?!

I don't think my place would be suitable for a large Doberman... I live in an apartment with a small courtyard, and I can only commit to walking the dog for half an hour each day...

No, Erny, and she didn't offer for me to buy one at all. I guess I should have asked, but I just wasn't sure if it was included in the price of the consultation and I was just generally feeling really overwhelmed by everything so I forgot.

Thank you for sharing your story, blissirritated.