Graeme

The dealings have been very odd with this breeder, that has interested others.

The contract is for the bitch to have a litter and I receive my deposit back, she is not returning my deposit back due to the fact I had advice that no one would travel to WA to have pups and return after a Caesar within such a short period of time, it was suggested I contact others this is why she is not returning refund due to a date of a call made at that time.

Sorry for the confusion

The original deal was that you paid a deposit. The bitch returned to the breeder for one litter. Then you were to receive your deposit back.

Right? YES

the breeder told you the bitch went to WA, had a caesarian, and was returned to her home state soon afterwards NOT TOLD BITCH WENT TO W.A

You were rather amazed about that, and were discussing it/asking questions about it. You didn't believe the bitch was sent to WA? Were your querying that? OTHERS WERE

I don't understand "she is not returning refund due to date of a call made at the time" CORRECT

By "call", do you mean phone call? CORRECT

Is she not refunding because you asked questions about the bitch going to WA to whelp? NO

If your contract says nothing about where the bitch should whelp, the breeder, legally should refund your deposit. CORRECT

Are you being punished for asking too many questions maybe? CORRECT

Was the bitch returned to you in good condition? Do you have any concerns about the care the bitch received? Is your main problem not being given a refund? BITCH OK ... REFUND YES

Unless the contract stated otherwise, the breeder could send the bitch to Alaska to whelp if she wanted to, without breaching the contract, or giving you any reason for complaint.

If the contract stated that your deposit would be refunded when the bitch had a litter, you are entitled to a refund. CORRECT

and I know quite a few people who sent bitches to WA to either be mated, whelp, and have the pups legally docked, and returned to their home state, without incident. I know a couple of breeders who did exactly the same thing, except it was to NZ. Now that docking is no longer legal in WA, many more will send bitches to NZ to whelp, and the bitch and pups to be returned.

Many breeders are vehemently opposed to their breed not being docked. And if they feel strongly enough, and can afford it, they will send bitches away so they can have docked pups.

I am strongly against some previously docked breeds not being docked. However, I did try it. I now have 2 undocked examples of a previously docked breed, and I am ok with that. Not happy, but ok. I have done the same with the other breed, so I have 2 undocked examples of that too. The second breed is a disaster with a tail, and as I will not be flying dogs to NZ, I will not breed that breed again. When I want another one, I will import one pupm, probably from NZ, as many breeders/exhibitors are doing, and will continue to do.

Why are tails docked?

The dealings have been very odd with this breeder, that has interested others.

The contract is for the bitch to have a litter and I receive my deposit back, she is not returning my deposit back due to the fact I had advice that no one would travel to WA to have pups and return after a Caesar within such a short period of time, it was suggested I contact others this is why she is not returning refund due to a date of a call made at that time.

Sorry for the confusion

OP, are you even positive the bitch actually went to WA to whelp?

I do not know if the bitch went to W.A ....

Who do you report a breeder too? Are there governing bodies? (All PM’s strictly kept confidential)

Since it is over and done with there is nothing more you can do now - unless there is another litter involved in the contract.

Its just a general question no other litter involved. I honored my side of the contract.

If you cannot discuss the agreement, then you cannot expect advice.

If you are absolutely convinced that the breeder is in breach, then your only recourse if you wish to take things further is through a lawyer and civil means. And that is going to cost you some pretty serious dollars.

Good luck. Hope you get it sorted to your satisfication.

You are correct, happy to discuss once I seek advise.

I am having some difficulty understanding what the problem is? Do you not want the bitch, do you not want the bitch on breeders terms? Did you want an undocked dog?

To answer your question, plenty of pregnant bitches travel, as do pregnant women. Planes and cars are both air conditioned. Dogs tend to sleep through car trips.

Pregnant bitches (and cattle, and horses) often travel from another country to Australia. I don't think vets in two countries, or the vets at AQIS would allow that if it was cruel.

As far as travelling the pups back from Perth, I don't see a problem with that either.

Many of us have had to travel pups for hours following caesarians, and I have never seen any pup have any adverse reaction.

There are plenty of breeders of previously docked breeds who believe it is cruel for a previously docked breed to have a tail. Some feel so strongly about it, they walked away, and either do not breed, or breed a different, tailed breed.

Some previous breeders now do not breed, but they buy imported docked dogs to show. Or, if they have boxers, they buy a bobtail dog.

Others organised to have pups docked in Perth or NZ.

Some breeders did and do travel bitches, some do not. I am not sure what "normal" is, but it is not unusual.

When I bred docked dogs, no one ever asked me who docked them. Is this an issue?

If you are not happy, I suggest you take it up with the breeder?

I own the bitch once she had a litter, its not about docked tails, interested to know if its cruel to the dog to travel after a litter and caesar. The breeder did not tell me the dog went to Perth and at that time did not know the vet so makes me wonder why. I was told a pregnant bitch can't fly, I understand your comments regarding car travel thank you for you comments. Breeder is not complying to terms of contract.

And I ask again......did you have a written agreement?

Sorry I forgot to answer. Yes I do.

Were these so called "breaches" of clauses contained within the agreement? Did they specify that the bitch had to remain on the premises of the "breeder" at all times or that the puppies were, or were not to be docked? Did the agreement specify any payment?

You should probably seek legal advice if you wish to take things further. The controlling bodies will not get involved in what they term a civil matter.

Tail docking is not the issue. Sorry, I can not discuss the agreement.

Thank you for your advice

I presume your trying to get the angle it was cruel ??

What the issue you have (according to you & the contract ) is a breach of contract that you say you werent told about.

If this is the case like Ellz said then you need to pursue it through the civil angle.

Having said that the bitch had to be sent to someone who co owned the bitch & the prefix for it to be done here,very easy to find out by viewing litter registrations

Cruel angle, not at all. Within the breeding section I'm seeking advice.

Yes I will pursue through other means

Thank you for your advice

I am having some difficulty understanding what the problem is? Do you not want the bitch, do you not want the bitch on breeders terms? Did you want an undocked dog?

To answer your question, plenty of pregnant bitches travel, as do pregnant women. Planes and cars are both air conditioned. Dogs tend to sleep through car trips.

Pregnant bitches (and cattle, and horses) often travel from another country to Australia. I don't think vets in two countries, or the vets at AQIS would allow that if it was cruel.

As far as travelling the pups back from Perth, I don't see a problem with that either.

Many of us have had to travel pups for hours following caesarians, and I have never seen any pup have any adverse reaction.

There are plenty of breeders of previously docked breeds who believe it is cruel for a previously docked breed to have a tail. Some feel so strongly about it, they walked away, and either do not breed, or breed a different, tailed breed.

Some previous breeders now do not breed, but they buy imported docked dogs to show. Or, if they have boxers, they buy a bobtail dog.

Others organised to have pups docked in Perth or NZ.

Some breeders did and do travel bitches, some do not. I am not sure what "normal" is, but it is not unusual.

When I bred docked dogs, no one ever asked me who docked them. Is this an issue?

If you are not happy, I suggest you take it up with the breeder?

I own the bitch once she had a litter, its not about docked tails, interested to know if its cruel to the dog to travel after a litter and caesar. The breeder did not tell me the dog went to Perth and at that time did not know the vet so makes me wonder why. I was told a pregnant bitch can't fly, I understand your comments regarding car travel thank you for you comments. Breeder is not complying to terms of contract.

And I ask again......did you have a written agreement?

Sorry I forgot to answer. Yes I do.

Is it considered normal practice to transport a pregnant bitch due within the week to W.A to give birth due on a Friday and tail docking pre booked on the Monday.

I was told they were born on the Sunday, a caesar was performed as last pup was known to be dead, tail docking on the Monday then returned by car back to Vic say Thursday?

I think the ANKC just the other day put out the new rules about dogs being sent to WA to whelp and be tail docked then returned. Check the ANKC site for details.

Thank you

I am having some difficulty understanding what the problem is? Do you not want the bitch, do you not want the bitch on breeders terms? Did you want an undocked dog?

To answer your question, plenty of pregnant bitches travel, as do pregnant women. Planes and cars are both air conditioned. Dogs tend to sleep through car trips.

Pregnant bitches (and cattle, and horses) often travel from another country to Australia. I don't think vets in two countries, or the vets at AQIS would allow that if it was cruel.

As far as travelling the pups back from Perth, I don't see a problem with that either.

Many of us have had to travel pups for hours following caesarians, and I have never seen any pup have any adverse reaction.

There are plenty of breeders of previously docked breeds who believe it is cruel for a previously docked breed to have a tail. Some feel so strongly about it, they walked away, and either do not breed, or breed a different, tailed breed.

Some previous breeders now do not breed, but they buy imported docked dogs to show. Or, if they have boxers, they buy a bobtail dog.

Others organised to have pups docked in Perth or NZ.

Some breeders did and do travel bitches, some do not. I am not sure what "normal" is, but it is not unusual.

When I bred docked dogs, no one ever asked me who docked them. Is this an issue?

If you are not happy, I suggest you take it up with the breeder?

I own the bitch once she had a litter, its not about docked tails, interested to know if its cruel to the dog to travel after a litter and caesar. The breeder did not tell me the dog went to Perth and at that time did not know the vet so makes me wonder why. I was told a pregnant bitch can't fly, I understand your comments regarding car travel thank you for you comments. Breeder is not complying to terms of contract.

I guess you could also ask this ,i gather your a registered member of your state body so you would have known tail docking was banned in your state so you would have known the dog would have to travel to Perth to get it done.

So you could have brought one with a tail or without ?

Sorry, I own the bitch under breeder terms it was to have a litter.

I was not told that my dog went to Perth

The breeder did not know the name of the vet that performed the surgery

Sounds a bit suss to me, why didn't you know that your dog went to Perth?

And surely the breeder would know the name of the vet, presumably they had a bill to pay?

Or did the bitch and puppies go to another party for the procedures? If so, then I think there was only one vet in WA that was performing docking so it wouldn't be too hard for a person to find out which vet it was.

What's the problem anyway? Provided it was done before March 16th, the procedure is legal. If the bitch and puppies survived the travel and docking, then isn't it a bit late to be crying over spilt milk now?

I was never told the bitch went to Perth, The breeder told me the people that took her to perth were not back at that time and she would tell when they arrived back, now she will not say who it was.

The bitch went there to have pups turn around and come back to Vic

I can't find the person that does the tail docking.

Not crying over spilt milk, woundering if it cruel or normal practice.

Hi, I know the rules have changed just interested to know who as the breeder did not where she was sent to

There where a couple of vets & the breeder would now where they where they had it done as they would have the paperwork that would have been handed out with each puppy as the paperwork had to be submitted when the pups where registered

The breeder told me she did not know who the vet was until the party returned, I find that weird. I was not even told that the my bitch was sent to W.A

I was not told that my dog went to Perth

The breeder did not know the name of the vet that performed the surgery

I was told one vet in W.A who has done docking anyone know the name of the vet?

I don't know who it is (but could probably find out). However, haven't the new rules for WA come in to take us in line with the other states now?

Ptolomy and Bedazzled, brilliant photo

Hi, I know the rules have changed just interested to know who as the breeder did not where she was sent to

This was done by some people - however no longer as it is now illegal in every state in Australia to dock, band, remove a dogs tail unless it is deemed necessary by a vet due to injury or disease. The law changed March 16th 2010.

Not so much the tail docking issue as it has been done prior to this date. Interested if its cruel to transport a dog that just given birth to 8 pups and had surgury 3-4 days travel back to vic in summer temperatures?

I was told one vet in W.A who has done docking anyone know the name of the vet?

Is it considered normal practice to transport a pregnant bitch due within the week to W.A to give birth due on a Friday and tail docking pre booked on the Monday.

I was told they were born on the Sunday, a caesar was performed as last pup was known to be dead, tail docking on the Monday then returned by car back to Vic say Thursday?

For all those interested parties:

The following changes have been made to the WA Legilsation re tail docking, importantly:

Delete:

"unless he or she believes that there are sufficent reasons for the tail docking to proceed for therapeutic or prophylactic purposes"

Insert:

"except where the tail docking is clinically indicated for the purpose of curing or alleviating a disease or injury from which the dog suffers".

This has been taken from the Government Gazette, WA - March 16 2010

Do you have a link to this page?

I can see an uphill battle with Sch and other dogsports because a lot of breeders who have turned good working breeds to useless show ponies dont want to look stupid. They want their widdle doggies to just prance around a ring and then just exist to get more ribbons. How bad would some people look if the only way we could have great sport dogs for some breeds would be to import them - gee thats showing how well Australians have preserved the breeds isnt it. And frankly its just perpetuating the ignorant public image that big dogs are dangerous so dont train them! Careful that schutzhund trained dog will eat your children, so keep it barely trained and bored in your backyard people!

And I've found the security industry has succeeded in producing more cowboys and morons who breed vicious, ill tempered and uncontrollable animals then schutzhund. An animal that loopy would never be able to be titled, plus most dont have the patience and skill it takes for a Sch title. Why bother with 3 different disciplines when you can suit up and poke that angry bugger on the end of the leash until it attacks you. Voiala - security dog.

When people realise that schutzhund is a sport, that the dog is simply playing an advanced game of tug-o-war and is equiptment orientated (some sch dogs are miserable in a real confrontation) and that tracking and advanced obedience are part of it then we'll get somewhere. Unfortunately the ONLY image people see are dogs running at decoys, teeth bared and then hanging off a fully padded guy with a stick.

There should be public demos of the tracking and obedience part, its legal and shows beautiful control. But as with a couple of clubs I've been to, the only thing I see is bite, bite, bite, bite, oh yeah we should teach it obedience. We shouldnt confuse a sport with a real working animal where the balances are different and allowances are made for a little less in some areas.