Boxerheart

We have natural bob tails in my breed. not many..but it's happened. My pedigree has it and I look forward to the chance to produce one.

Yup...it's about the look. I like a docked/bobtail in my breed...I won't deny that, nor should I be chastised for admitting it. If I knew enough about genetics and how to capture this gene to continually create short tails, I damn well would...in a heartbeat!

My breed, traditionally was docked...like it or not..it is the history of the breed and I respect that. I get very frustrated and angry with the fanatics that have managed to remove this peice of history in 'form' from my breed (and others) because of their misguided information.

I embrace those that have pushed forward, inspite of a lot of pressure, to create the bobtail look that their breeds history held. I no further believe that a genetically created bob tail, is detrimental to the dogs health, or happiness or ability to communicate, as is a docked tail done at birth and without pain (banding)

I have two litters planned, one is due in the next month...there is a good chance there will be a natural bob tail...the pedigree shows the odds pretty high....the same with the next planned mating...

But then....I am hoping to produce another chocolate one day.....(another topic)

In your case it was already occurring in the breed.

In the case of Boxers the main issue is a Corgi was used. A Corgi has very different temperament, construction and coat to a Boxer. Many retain Corgi construction traits.

Tails are often set on low too as a Corgi's is this is to do with angulation of the croup). If construction is not right we do not have true Boxer movement. Temperament in those I have witnessed and others have witnessed in other Bobtails .. aggressive (please note I understand this does not mean they all are).

There are reports of long coats and ruffs still occurring, though I have not witnessed any.

The planes of the forehead are flatter and muzzles are longer and often incorrect (these points pointed out by an international judge who themselves bred bobtails.) There are nearly always kinks in bob tales or malformation. Some breeders are still docking their bobtails for the correct length though this is illegal.

Though there are no doubt going to be some very nice specimens out there... and as I said before, I am sure their breeders are doing what they think is right.

However, the rose coloured glasses have to come off both breeders and the judges if they want to bring up the standard of the BT's and not damage what we already have as a breed. Also need to stop being biased of dogs with long tails because they ARE the breed (they are not yesterdays rubbish).

I hear you but this is a fault in the system and likely to be a bigger issue in future. Now the UKKC has opened its stud books any dog could have genes which are not purebred if its coming from the UKKC registry into this country.

The point Im trying to make is how long after the insertion of an outside gene do we remain concerned about it? fact is we know about this one gene in particular and can test for it.

And again it is the UKKC who think nothing of the rest of the world. The world will either accept it and move on or potentially not recognize countries that accept UK stock.

Then also we will also probably even have bigger issues with councils who will be able to question a breeds purity.

I wonder and this is my biggest concern, are the UKKC going to insist on mandatory health testing of any unregistered dogs they accept in our breeds.

I am not a fan of NBT in our breed, (But I do understand their are breeders out there doing what they think is best from their side of the fence so to speak.) There is always two sides to a story.

But I don't think we can call ourselves purebred dog breeders when any kennel club from any which country can allow it's members to designer dog breed for cosmetic reasons and without any approval from country of origin of the breed. Dr Cattenach did it purely for cosmetic reasons, a "flight of fancy" in his own words, and he even thought of introducing upright ears!

It appalls me that Dr Cattenach's flight of fancy now makes every Joe Blo want to cross their previously docked breed, and yes it is nothing but designer dog breeding.

If I was the breeder after a second opinion at a vet of my choice I would want the puppy returned and you would receive a full refund of purchase price but it is complicated especially in giant breeds as OCD is environmental, diet and exercise related also, hereditary is only one factor.

Agree

I have a 10 month old giant breed dog (in theory show quality and on the main register) that I purchased from a well respected breeder with decades of breeding experience in the breed. He has been fed premium food exclusively (plus a bone once a week.) I have not mentioned the breed as it would probably be fairly easy to identify the breeder.

Unfortunately I have just had to take him to the vet as he was not walking properly.

The vet examined him and found the front left elbow had restricted movement and was painful. The pup was subsequently sedated and his elbows were x-rayed.

The left elbow has bad OCD. To quote the vet, "it basically buggered and no matter what we do, it will never be right." He may also require an operation to clean up the elbow (not sure of proper terminology.) The right elbow also has OCD, but not as badly.

Whilst the pup was sedated, the vet decided to also x-ray the hips just to check. One hip has the femur about half way out the joint. And the other hip is also clunky.

The vet said the pain relief, glucosamine, catrophen etc will cost at least $100 a month.

When I asked if the hip is likely to be a problem that may require a replacement, the answer was "that his elbows will probably give out and he will need to be euthanized before that happens."

My questions to the forum is does the breeder have any responsibility, and if so, what should the breeder do?

Too many variables with a growing animal to lay the blame solely at the breeders feet.

Some premium dog foods can make a pup grow too rapidly. Some previously considered premium dog foods have gone to crap too. It is far from a natural diet and I am sorry but one bone a week minus regular BARF type food is just not good enough in my opinion.

Your pup may have been over exercised or too fat. Injured, Bounding up and down stairs? etc etc

Only you know what you and your breeder discussed and agreed to and I hope the breeder put it in writing. You have bought a living thing and there is always risk with a living thing.

Have you had a second specialists vets opinion?

Was the puppies parents hip and elbow scored? End of the day our opinions mean nothing. You obviously are looking to pass the buck and are seeking support on here. You need to be talking to your breeder not us.

By the way, just because a dog is put on main register does not mean it is guaranteed show quality, nor does it imply it is show quality. It simply means there have been no restrictions as to what you would do with that dog, placed on that dog.

Sorry if this comes across as harsh. But sitting here behind the computer we cannot know all that went on in the 8 months you have had the pup.

Talk to your breeder first.

What about going out to vet practises to watch these surgeries being done and then starting to do the surgeries under supervision?

We don't kill off people just so surgeons can learn how to operate

We did during the war eras..also in some countries I think I read some people who are terminally ill sell themselves to labs to earn funds for their families. Pretty gruesome, but many discoveries are made this way.

Sad all around, but then many gain for the sacrifice. I am not sure how I feel on these topics. Depends on circumstance I guess.

OK..I dragged out the book. I personally would not risk my pups on a drug companies sales pitch.

Active immunity is produced when a individual is exposed to a foreign organism. This may be by natural exposure or via vaccine (induced active immunity).

The initial response of the body on first exposure to antigens is known as the Primary Response. After exposure to the antigen it normally takes about two weeks for the antibody levels to peak. During this time B cells are converted to plasma cells that secrete antibodies specific for the antigen. The antibody levels do not remain elevated for a long time. If the individual is exposed a second time to the antigen, the presence of memory cells stimulates rapid production of antibodies. In the secondary response, antibodies quickly reach peak levels and remain elevated for a longer time.

Nothing changes here, everything is carried on as normal.

Once the pups are vaccinated they can go to their new homes in 36 hours.

I don't think so. It takes two weeks for the body to develop immunity and there is a process the body must go through to do this. No shortcuts, whiling it is going through this process the mothers immunity is compromised. That is why we vaccinate at 6 weeks and not home them till 8 weeks.

If I must , I shall dredge out my anatomy and physiology books and write a short essay in correct jargon (if my simple explanation is not to be believed :D

I found out yesterday that Nobivac claim that their vac can cut through maternal antibodies so you give a c3 at 6 weeks and then the Nobivac c3 or c5 at 10 weeks and thats it for 12 months. Nobivac claim their 10 week vac works in 36 hours and you can take your pups out after this... the vet said 7 days to be safe.

OK..I dragged out the book. I personally would not risk my pups on a drug companies sales pitch.

Active immunity is produced when a individual is exposed to a foreign organism. This may be by natural exposure or via vaccine (induced active immunity).

The initial response of the body on first exposure to antigens is known as the Primary Response. After exposure to the antigen it normally takes about two weeks for the antibody levels to peak. During this time B cells are converted to plasma cells that secrete antibodies specific for the antigen. The antibody levels do not remain elevated for a long time. If the individual is exposed a second time to the antigen, the presence of memory cells stimulates rapid production of antibodies. In the secondary response, antibodies quickly reach peak levels and remain elevated for a longer time.

Nothing changes here, everything is carried on as normal.

Once the pups are vaccinated they can go to their new homes in 36 hours.

I don't think so. It takes two weeks for the body to develop immunity and there is a process the body must go through to do this. No shortcuts, whiling it is going through this process the mothers immunity is compromised. That is why we vaccinate at 6 weeks and not home them till 8 weeks.

If I must , I shall dredge out my anatomy and physiology books and write a short essay in correct jargon (if my simple explanation is not to be believed :D

I found out yesterday that Nobivac claim that their vac can cut through maternal antibodies so you give a c3 at 6 weeks and then the Nobivac c3 or c5 at 10 weeks and thats it for 12 months. Nobivac claim their 10 week vac works in 36 hours and you can take your pups out after this... the vet said 7 days to be safe.

OK..I dragged out the book. I personally would not risk my pups on a drug companies sales pitch.

Active immunity is produced when a individual is exposed to a foreign organism. This may be by natural exposure or via vaccine (induced active immunity).

The initial response of the body on first exposure to antigens is known as the Primary Response. After exposure to the antigen it normally takes about two weeks for the antibody levels to peak. During this time B cells are converted to plasma cells that secrete antibodies specific for the antigen. The antibody levels do not remain elevated for a long time. If the individual is exposed a second time to the antigen, the presence of memory cells stimulates rapid production of antibodies. In the secondary response, antibodies quickly reach peak levels and remain elevated for a longer time.

Nothing changes here, everything is carried on as normal.

Once the pups are vaccinated they can go to their new homes in 36 hours.

I don't think so. It takes two weeks for the body to develop immunity and there is a process the body must go through to do this. No shortcuts, whiling it is going through this process the mothers immunity is compromised. That is why we vaccinate at 6 weeks and not home them till 8 weeks.

If I must , I shall dredge out my anatomy and physiology books and write a short essay in correct jargon (if my simple explanation is not to be believed :D

I found out yesterday that Nobivac claim that their vac can cut through maternal antibodies so you give a c3 at 6 weeks and then the Nobivac c3 or c5 at 10 weeks and thats it for 12 months. Nobivac claim their 10 week vac works in 36 hours and you can take your pups out after this... the vet said 7 days to be safe.

OK..I dragged out the book. I personally would not risk my pups on a drug companies sales pitch.

Active immunity is produced when a individual is exposed to a foreign organism. This may be by natural exposure or via vaccine (induced active immunity).

The initial response of the body on first exposure to antigens is known as the Primary Response. After exposure to the antigen it normally takes about two weeks for the antibody levels to peak. During this time B cells are converted to plasma cells that secrete antibodies specific for the antigen. The antibody levels do not remain elevated for a long time. If the individual is exposed a second time to the antigen, the presence of memory cells stimulates rapid production of antibodies. In the secondary response, antibodies quickly reach peak levels and remain elevated for a longer time.

Nothing changes here, everything is carried on as normal.

Once the pups are vaccinated they can go to their new homes in 36 hours.

I don't think so. It takes two weeks for the body to develop immunity and there is a process the body must go through to do this. No shortcuts, whiling it is going through this process the mothers immunity is compromised. That is why we vaccinate at 6 weeks and not home them till 8 weeks.

If I must , I shall dredge out my anatomy and physiology books and write a short essay in correct jargon (if my simple explanation is not to be believed :D

I found out yesterday that Nobivac claim that their vac can cut through maternal antibodies so you give a c3 at 6 weeks and then the Nobivac c3 or c5 at 10 weeks and thats it for 12 months. Nobivac claim their 10 week vac works in 36 hours and you can take your pups out after this... the vet said 7 days to be safe.

OK..I dragged out the book. I personally would not risk my pups on a drug companies sales pitch.

Active immunity is produced when a individual is exposed to a foreign organism. This may be by natural exposure or via vaccine (induced active immunity).

The initial response of the body on first exposure to antigens is known as the Primary Response. After exposure to the antigen it normally takes about two weeks for the antibody levels to peak. During this time B cells are converted to plasma cells that secrete antibodies specific for the antigen. The antibody levels do not remain elevated for a long time. If the individual is exposed a second time to the antigen, the presence of memory cells stimulates rapid production of antibodies. In the secondary response, antibodies quickly reach peak levels and remain elevated for a longer time.

Nothing changes here, everything is carried on as normal.

Once the pups are vaccinated they can go to their new homes in 36 hours.

I don't think so. It takes two weeks for the body to develop immunity and there is a process the body must go through to do this. No shortcuts, whiling it is going through this process the mothers immunity is compromised. That is why we vaccinate at 6 weeks and not home them till 8 weeks.

If I must , I shall dredge out my anatomy and physiology books and write a short essay in correct jargon (if my simple explanation is not to be believed :D

I avoided showing, and still had my shoes, disinfected whenever I left the property or had anyone visit their shoes got sprayed too. But my OH is quite lax, and we can bring in stuff on our car tyres...the worry is endless. I believe that only bleach will kill the germs too..but I recall someone mentioning somthing else...I would like to be reminded

I don't charge extra for Main Register. All Main Register pups are co-own. No ifs or buts. Too many disreputable colour breeders or puppy farmers popping up in my breed who don't give a brass razoo about what they are breeding. As long as it carries colour and they can breed from it.. Yipeee.

If I "stash" a dog for breeding, they pay the full price up front. I pay all the health testing at the relevant time. Once I use the dog/bitch, I refund their purchase price or give them a puppy (limit reg). Once the dog is desexed, I am happy to sign it over. At least this way, if they decide to desex the dog early, I have still got my pet price.

Too many people popping up in my breed who do not spend the time actually researching the lines they have. If they did some basic research, they would not be doubling up on certain dogs in their pedigree. All they see is a "nice" chocolate/white dog.. not what hidden dangers are carried in the line..

The funny thing with that.. is mostly where these same people have gotten their coloured dog from is a colour breeder to start with... Some breeders still sell everything on Main Registration and the coloured dogs flooding the market are from the same few kennels who do sell all their pups on Main Registration. So the quality never really improves. As generally speaking, the same people who are buying these dogs are only interested in selling coloured dogs, and anyone with quality show dogs will not allow their studs to go to these inferior bitches.

Too many border collies are coming up with other varying health issues that are not able to be DNA tested for, and the number of puppies I have seen recently who are missing significant pigment on their noses at 8 weeks is disturbing. (these are non merle puppies too). Or the number of dogs with blue eyes appearing on Main Register and then some breeders making a feature of it in their advertising for "show quality" puppies when the blue eye is an actual breed fault!

Maybe if some of those breeders actually went to a show and tried to show their dogs, they may get an idea of what show quality really is. Just because it is capable of being bred from, does not make it show quality.

If these new breeders are there for the right reasons.. then I am sure most of us will be supportive with their endeavours. But the number of ones who are breeding for other reasons is getting disturbing.

However, just because it is capable of doing well in the ring doesnt make it suitable for breeding either.

Yes, but at some point the buyers being armed with the knowledge that a show potential dog is not the same as a good breeding prospect must take some of the risks we breeders have to take too. We all set out to buy or breed the best but we are not God, we cannot have perfectionism (and even God FKss up - how much in the rest of the world is wrong)..that aside how much money do we breeders spend on dead ends. People need to get a reality check and realise we are dealing with living things and with life is risk.

I don't see the reason behind charging more for a main register pup and for me one price fits all. Colour, sex, breed. In the end each pup in the litter should cost you the same to raise from birth to sale.

I would think that by charging more you are saying you guarantee that pup is going to do well in the ring and I know just about every breeder states in their contracts that they don't guarantee the dog will be successful. Also by charging more for your main register pups prospective puppy buyers feel that a limit register pup is of lesser quality. And I have had several puppy buyers query the reasoning behind two prices.

These are just my thoughts on it.

What a lot of Rot and assumption on your part here.

End of the day, the puppies belong to the breeder who will sell the puppies according to demand and the suitability of the home at the price they wish to set. PERIOD.

Limited register = cant register progeny or show, but can do obedience.

Main register = can show and register progeny

Both registers may include excellent examples of the breed, and pets may also be excellent examples of the breed. Both registers may also include very poor examples depending on the breeder or the dogs used.

Both registers are entirely the discretion of the INDIVIDUAL breeder and what they want to sell their puppies on as.

Buyers must do their research and know what they are looking for in their breed as it is not possible to use the registers as a guide to quality.

In Great Danes they seem to grow taller and be leggier if desexed earlier. Although I don't see what the problem is really, just the same as an entire Great Dane that was bred poorly...

From what I understand, desexing earlier can keep the growth plates open.

thats what I have read about the growth plates, I dont plan to desex until 12 or so mths for this reason

Yes desexing early, or gelding a horse will keep the growth plates open longer.

This is my Australian Shepherd boy who was desexed at 4.5 months. He is well within the height standard, nicely proportioned, not leggy and certainly not hideous. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he's quite a handsome lad. Really, the only thing he's missing aside from the obvious, is a thick ruff of hair around his neck.

Though he is nice looking and I am sure you love him as he is..he does not have anything masculine about him. He is very pretty and has a puppish feminine head. He has not developed as a male dog would if desexed later.

JMHO as an outsider looking in.

Anyone know who may be doing this or travel regularly to Tasmania?

There are things to consider with deafness, such as the fact you can not recall the dog at any time. If the dog is baout to head into danger, you must be within eye shot or reach to prevent accidents.

I have also found that deaf dogs (and blind ones) respond really well with being with other dogs. They use the other dogs for cues and this can also help keep them safe and happy.

I agree with this. There are many deaf dogs living great lives - but it takes a lot of commitment from the owner. The thing I'd worry about most is recall (but it can be trained). Sure the dog can read hand signals, but they need to be looking at you to see them. If they're focusing on the new dog that has just come into the park, that can be hard!

I find it odd that some people say it shouldn't be taken into account when looking for a dog??

Advised by my vet, and considering many people are not willing to put the time in to training their new puppy I would PTS any pup I bred that was 100% deaf.

If they get out of a property they cannot hear vehicles (owner of dog is liable for vehicle damage) and other possibles along these lines.

Thankfully, thus far and touching wood..I have never needed to make that decision.

I pick them in their first three days. I can see the structure is there or not. Knowing my lines helps too..that takes years. What is left is usually hoping for two normal testicles, eye colour/ pigmentation, health checks etc.

Assuming they could hurt your dog and shooting them are two different things IMO.

ETA I would judge the risk of predatory drift in this scenario to be high, especially given the noises that Beagle was making. Again, doesn't mean it's necessary to shoot the dogs. It's not a matter of choosing which dogs get hurt. If there's a way that no dogs get hurt it's kind of obvious that is the preferred way to handle it. It's all speculation, but I've seen that kind of behaviour at the dog park every now and then and I wouldn't consider it risky for me to intervene. I might get an inhibited bite, but I'm unlikely to get mauled. I think how the behaviour is interpreted is beside the point. It's not acceptable to shoot a dog on a misunderstanding.

Dogs at large in Australia or on someone else's property chasing another animal or person can be shot. I watched this video, both pits displayed very dominant behavior. The beagle was submissive and still got nailed (by the sound) before and when the policeman arrive on the scene and the blue one rushed him. Pack behavior of a serious nature. If the beagle was not submitting he would be attacked. Blue dog was attacking land owners, barking, growling, hackles up standing tall and stiffly wagging upright tail means business. Red dog had a few goes at beagle.

These dogs were on someone else's property. The Policeman did the right thing considering the situation

Anything up to $2000 is reasonable at the cost of living prices for dogs and their needs vet bills etc now days. Anything less than $1000 is literally giving money away. Vet bills, equipment, registrations, cost of meat and premium dog food, health testing even the most basic is sky high now.

Those who want to pay nothing for a dog because it's a dog and a "pet" should perhaps stick with their computer games..because it will cost a lot more annually to keep than the initial purchase price and once you have it you can't skimp (though many do and sadly thats why there are so many ill cared for dogs out there.)

Can't help but notice people think it is a no no to charge more for pups of a popular colour, or for particular gender. There is nothing wrong with this. If the demand is there. I waited nearly 10 years to get my first red Boxer in a litter from my lines. Finally I had both a red male and a female, the male I had a home lined up and sold the same price as my brindles. The female I kept. You have no idea the number of calls of people insisting they wanted those pups, that they would pay more etc etc. They really tried to twist my arm. I did not budge.

But had I not planned to keep the bitch and if the red male had not had a home lined up already..there would have been nothing wrong with a higher price either.

Just my thoughts on this matter. Supply and demand drives it. Sorry to sidetrack.

Is docking banned in Australia recently?

I don't own docked breed at the moment but i bought giant schnauzer puppy in 1997 just after tail docking was banned in 1996 in Finland. It took just a while to get use to the look, but i preferred my dog as a whole package.

It was banned in NSW in 2003, Im unsure on the other states

I dont like docking, I did work placement at a vet and had to hold a litter of pups when they were done...nope, not for me

My JRT is also docked (2001 pup, and she was docked before I picked her out or she would have had a one) I swear she gets a phantom tail sometimes, I hate seeing her try and bite the tail that doesnt exist

It is banned Australia wide now.

TBH I didn't buy mine from registered breeders - I didn't know much about BYB and registered breeders before I joined this forum so I just went onto the trading post or other puppy websites to find my two babies.

Max was the first, I found the breeders on the trading post and they were lovely and lived on a big property in Castlereagh (near Penrith) and my OH and I went there and they had three GSD with a lot of puppies - beautiful dogs that were clearly well looked after and loved. We bought

ax for $290 - but he hadn't been vaccinated or wormed or flea'd - but that was okay with us.

Jenna was next and we also found her on the trading post. I went to a guys property in Horsley Park and he has literally about 35 dogs - a mixture between GSD and JRT - however all of them looked quite healthy and happy. We bought Jenna for $400 because she was the runt (the others were going for $550) and I research it on the net before I got her and all evidence suggested that German shepherd runts normally end up the same size as its litter mates anyway. So we bought her and she was wormed and flea'd and had had her first vaccination.

I was pretty impressed with those prices - especially since they were purebred - BUT i didnt get paperws - I didnt think I needed them bec ause I wasn't going to breed or show them... But they are gorgeous dogs. And I got to meet the mum and dad both times and mum and dad were all in good health.

When ie what year did people buy their dogs also (as this will reflect on price also.