CliftonPark

Kellie makes a fairly strong argument in favour of controlling the environment but has also expressed disappointment at how difficult she has found it to achieve, so I would be interested to hear what she has to say about this now. I believe that if you own the DVD you can join her "5th Quadrant" discussion group.

I would be very interested to know what she says too and yes I only just discovered that as I have the DVDs I can join 5th Quadrant and shall do so to learn more.

I caution against the use of distraction techniques except when necessary, and there is a very narrow range of scenarios where they are useful in my work. Either you can control the environment (or consequences) in some small way, or it's completely out of your hands and distractions aren't going to help at all. If you can control the environment even a little, you can reinforce operants. If you can't, then you probably can't distract the dog either. The small margin between those two pages doesn't allow a lot of room for doodling, but if you can avoid a potentially explosive situation by tossing some food around then that is better than losing the plot completely.

Thanks good point.

but I do use proximity of stimuli to reinforce/extinguish behavioural responses. I also use a couple of kilos of meat and enough clicking to be attractive to cicadas and crickets.

laughing aside I shall try and get the visual I have in my mind of bugs dancing at your feet.....you obviously have a wealth of knowledge and experience. Do you run workshops/courses for dog trainers looking to learn more....I don't think you ever stop learning actually.

If you don't maintain a change at an operant level, or fail to make a change at a respondent level (and maintain it), what happens when the dog is pushed a little too far and barking/lunging work for him again?

The CAT procedures shown always had placid easy going decoy dogs for obvious reasons but as you state above what happens when the dog is pushed a little too far?

The process shown did not include upping the anti with the type of decoy dogs used and I wonder if the process could be extended to using decoy dogs that are more bouncy, playful types, dogs that bark (friendly/excited barking) dogs that will teach the target dog to cope with a bit more.

The dog is going to encounter this in real life and also needs to be able to cope and realise these are also non threatening behaviours.

Do they incorporate this at all as I didn't see it done or get discussed.

I know you can't proof against everything the dog will encounter but if the goal is to be friendly with other dogs I do think they need to be trained to cope with more than placid dogs. Guess it depends on how far the owner is prepared to go with the training and what they want to achieve.

Consider that when the dog is responding appropriately to other dogs, most other dogs he meets will also respond appropriately and his new behaviour will work for him - at least most of the time. However, let's not pretend that the sort of dogs who end up needing CAT aren't genetically predisposed to learning aggressive behaviours and experiencing anxiety around other dogs. If they've learned it before, they can learn it again, particularly if you haven't addressed the respondents as well (which is currently an UNKNOWN factor in CAT).

Perhaps more than one training method could be employed to help cover different situations in dealing with things in the real world,

like a distration technique 'look at me' if a particularly risky confrontation is anticipated so that they don't just have to rely on the CAT training and have other training tools at their disposal.

Something to be very careful of, it should not be assumed that just because we conditioned new operants, or suppressed unwanted aggressive operants, that we made broad-reaching changes to respondent behaviours. We may have, or we may not have. Why do we make the assumption?

agree

I haven't explained that very well, sorry!

Think you did a great job explaining things actually and I thank you.

Assuming the process is suitable for the dog, do you use the CAT procedure as a preferred method for dog aggression or something else?

I know Kellie Snider reasonably well and have had several discussions with her about this procedure from the beginning.

Functional Analysis is ALWAYS undertaken as this procedure only works for "distance increasing" behaviours. One of the fears I have for this procedure now that it is popular is that very few people are competent with FA so the method is vulnerable to blame shifting.

It will not make the aggression worse if done correctly. If done incorrectly it can make it worse. One requirement for doing this correctly is that you have a lot of time to complete the procedure, however long that takes, hours.

It is definitely not flooding, however I personally believe (and Kellie Snider disagrees) that there is a lot of habituation going on. It is (or should be!) a Differential Reinforcement of Alternative Response procedure, allowing unwanted responses to extinguish (reasonably quickly) while other responses are reinforced via negative reinforcement. "Spontaneous Recovery" is mitigated to some extent, although there is very little data on this and I think some of the claims need backing up.

Because it is a long procedure where you essentially attempt to "finish the job" in very few sessions, running into uncontrolled dogs should not be an issue. In theory. I have my doubts, and I believe that handlers should be trained in using "non-functional" reinforcers to maintain the alternative responses, but Kellie and Jesus disagree with me on this point.

Some personal criticisms:

1. studies were not long enough to make claims regarding long-term efficacy of procedure

2. habituation and other effects have not been proven to not take place, leading to questions about long-term efficacy

3. no measures of respondent behaviours were taken, therefore no indication of biochemical or nervous system state other than outwardly visually observable phenomena

Criticisms aside, it is an excellent procedure if the practitioner is skilled and has a solid practical ability with functional analysis, putting aside their own interpretations of behaviour. It does have more to offer than the basic use of functional reinforcers which are nothing new to the behaviour world.

Thankyou Aidan great information.

I felt the same regarding habituation and that the dog could get used to the decoy dog or person and the environments that the training is occuring in espec due to the amount of time exposed to them with this type of training and that a number of appropriate decoy dogs would be required as well as people handling the decoy dogs to really proof the procedure.

Re generalising in new environments that can't be controlled, this is where I have a concern about uncontrolled dogs. I understand you need to complete the procedure in a controlled environment first and because of this the dog in theory should not be reactive/as reactive. But if habituation of the controlled environments/dogs/people has occured I do think there is a real risk that the dog may react in the uncontrolled environment espec if an inappropriate dog is confronted.

I'm thinking you almost need a team of people monitoring the uncontrolled environment to minimise risk until you have proofed the dog in many environments with many dogs and people.

I thought there may need to be some type of ongoing training (by handler/owner) to maintain the strength of the alternate responses espec if the dog is inadvertantly exposed to inappropriate dogs to help prevent regression. Excuse my ignorance but could you please explain 'non functional reinforcer'

You said that this procedure is now popular. Do you know some good trainers in Melbourne that use C.A.T. you would recommend I talk to.

CP:

Since the function of most aggression is to achieve distance from the icky thing (other dogs, humans, skateboards), if you can manipulate the consequences (the icky thing DOESN’T go away when the dog aggresses)

That might be the case for fear aggression but I can't see it working for other forms of aggression. A dominant dog showing signs of aggression is NOT going to de-escalate if the other dogs doesn't leave.

Analysis of the dog would be critical here.. and it would be potentially dangerous to get it wrong.

I'm thinking if the aggression is a learned behaviour it can be manipulated with this type of procedure. I think as you that a dominant dog would be a problem.

Sounds like a very low key version of "flooding". "Trickling" perhaps?

trickling I like that.

They are shaping behaviour though by selectively reinforcing improved alternate behaviours that are offered. Very minor alt behaviours initially (a look away, sniff of the ground whatever) but if the trainer is really good with timing and selecting what to reinforce from what I've seen (and they show the trials of many dogs) the dogs do learn to offer behaviours other than aggression. I think it really needs a very good trainer. I do think it could easily be done incorrectly in the wrong hands.

The other thing that I liked was that the handler of the target dog (usually the owner but sometimes they tether the dog but with the owner still present if they are concerned about redirection or the handler not being able to hold the dog if a big aggressive response does happen) is that the handler does nothing...they do not speak to the dog, do not reniforce the dog just be there and do nothing. It takes all the pressure off the handler who is usually stressed about their dogs aggression.

CP:

Since the function of most aggression is to achieve distance from the icky thing (other dogs, humans, skateboards), if you can manipulate the consequences (the icky thing DOESN’T go away when the dog aggresses)

That might be the case for fear aggression but I can't see it working for other forms of aggression. A dominant dog showing signs of aggression is NOT going to de-escalate if the other dogs doesn't leave.

Analysis of the dog would be critical here.. and it would be potentially dangerous to get it wrong.

I'm thinking if the aggression is a learned behaviour it can be manipulated with this type of procedure. I think as you that a dominant dog would be a problem.

Well to be honest, i have never heard it called that and only looked up and read what you were referring to. Although i'm pretty sure we've done similar things at times, its highly unlikely to be exactly the same and i don't know any trainers who promote that they use that particular system.

When/ where was the seminar you attended?

ETA Just read a little more- using this technique alone may prove difficult in practical situations where you cannot control the other dogs movements

The procedure is done in very controlled situations intially before moving to the real world. Yes I agree with you and this is part of what I would like to understand from anyone using this method. How did they generalise it to the real world?

you use what is right for the dog. Frankly there are better ways and I have a problem with not stopping a dog showing explosive behavior. Done incorrectly it can push a dog to try harder.

There are plenty of us here on DOL that deal with aggression, myself , Erny, Cosmolo, Kelpi-i etc

I agree totally that you use what is right for the dog. I have seen the seminar dvd's and would now like to find someone that has experience with it to learn more about it from people that have experience with treating aggression and using not only C.A.T. but other methods to determine it's strengths and weaknesses. I just have not been able to locate anyone yet that has a thorough knowledge and experience with C.A.T. I'm hoping with all the dolers out there that there will be someone that does have that knowledge and experience.

Does anyone know a trainer in Melbourne (don't care where) that uses C.A.T Constructional Aggression Treatment method for treating aggressive dogs?

can you explain what this is? i haven't heard of it before.

It's difficult to explain properly and be brief. Here some info I have copied. C.A.T is an operant approach to treating aggression and uses negative reinforcement. It is a shaping procedure. The Constructional approach, which was presented by Ruiz-Rosales and Snider at the seminar, maintains that aggression is a learned behavior and it is persistent because it has worked in the past. Aggression makes other dogs go away, that aggressive behavior becomes very reinforcing. The dog learns that aggressive behavior pays off. So, what would happen if the aggressive behavior didn’t pay off?

Since the function of most aggression is to achieve distance from the icky thing (other dogs, humans, skateboards), if you can manipulate the consequences (the icky thing DOESN’T go away when the dog aggresses) then the dog will start to experiment with which behaviors actually will make the icky thing go away. Initially the behaviors may be very small; a sideways glance, blinking the eyes, or a head turn. The dog learns that THOSE behaviors WILL make the icky thing go away. As the treatment progresses the dog begins to feel more comfortable, he will offer more and more alternative behaviors, building a repertoire that is more social and friendlier. All of this is done under carefully controlled circumstances with the trainer, the client and his or her dog. In the cases of dog to people aggression a series of humans are used as decoys to work with the aggressive dog so that the dog can take these alternative social behaviors and begin to apply them across the board. The same technique is used with dogs who are aggressive to other dogs. Decoy dogs work just beyond the dog’s comfort level and move ever closer as the dog softens and becomes more accepting. The end goal for all types of aggression using these techniques is total interaction not just tolerance.

I have used a similar method before on a few different dogs (never heard it called that) but much depends on the dog as to what the method is- i don't know of anyone who uses that strategy for every dog every time.

The C.A.T. procedure I am referring to is the one developed by Jesus Rosales-Ruiz and Kellie Snider. Not requiring trainer that only uses this method, just want to talk with a trainer that is knowledgable about this procedure and has experience applying it. I watched the seminar conducted by Jesus and Kellie and am interested in discussing it further with a trainer that has experience with it.

Does anyone know a trainer in Melbourne (don't care where) that uses C.A.T Constructional Aggression Treatment method for treating aggressive dogs?

We offer our dogs a range of fun activities that involve them using their brain and natural abilities as well as exercise.

The variety of activities keeps them stimulated and happy. Flyball (great if your dog is ball obsessed), Agility, Lure, Retreiving and depending if you're an

early morning person (as they start very early) Tracking. Obedience training is important and throwing in some of these activities incorporates your dog learning to listen to you and follow instruction as well as having some fun too.

CliftonPark ~ Lucian has been fed by all 3 of us, including our 12yr old son. He has been taught to sit, prior to us placing his dish down. When he has a cows ear, we have occasionally taken it away and given it back a short time later and he has not reacted in a bad manner. Our son tends to go up and pat Lucian while he is eating and Lucian just looks at him then goes back to eating. The cat can walk past him, rub up against him, investigate what 'that dog' is eating and Lucian will continue about his business. I am confident that if he stays this way we shouldn't have any problems with food 'aggression'.

Lucian08 it is great that everyone is feeding your pup and being taught to sit before eating. You sound like you are doing a good job. Your pup is only 9 weeks old and as you are aware constantly learning how to behave. I replied to BlackMagic due to a concern that her comments indicated her dog is learning to 'not trust' people near her food bowl, hence the dog deciding the need to take her food away to a safe place when it's humans take food from the bowl. This can progress to aggression (particularly as the dog gets older) if the dog continues to learn that humans near my food bowl = losing some or all of my food (even if only temporarily). The best and safest method to help prevent food aggression is to create a 'positive association' with people near the food bowl. If everyone in the family goes up to pup while eating and place an extra treat or 2 in the bowl your pup will love you coming near his bowl. If in the future an unsupervised child does go up and take food away from your dog the early training should prevent an aggressive response as the expectation of the dog will that of receiving food not losing it. This is the safest way for you to help ensure your dog stays the way he is. All the best.

I agree with Shell. BARF patties are a complete meal that includes fruit and vegetables and requires minimal handliing and preparation. Particularly now the patties are individually shrink wrapped. May be a bit more expensive, but at least your dog will be getting the good diet that he is used to.

Have you considered a natural diet like BARF? IMO a highly processed diet with so much grain is not what dogs are designed to eat.

There are some great threads that can offer lots of information on BARF and RAW feeding.

A puppy playpen is a god send when you can't keep an eye on your puppy. You can also attach it to the crate so puppy has a play area but can also go in to crate for a sleep. Love to see a photo when you get your new baby. It's such fun getting organised for a new puppy.

I've been making sure she gets used to us taking food from her bowl at meal times, and the other day I went to take a chicken neck out, she grabed what was left and ran and placed them into the crate knowing I wouldn't go there.

If you want your pup to be ok with people near food bowl, it is best to 'put food in' rather than 'take it out' so that your pups is glad you are near the food bowl and not distrusting of you and feeling the need to hide her food.

I looked at a number of policies and went with Manchester Unity. I'm insuring in case of some very expensive disaster happening. They offer flexability by choosing a higher excess to reduce premium and IMO had best coverage including cover for genetically inherited problems if you take out the higher cover.

We did for many years use daily with no probs at all & also infrom our puppy owners that daily is perfectly fine .

When you run boarding kennels its very enlightening in what vets suggest & give clients dogs without talking to them about it.Most people literally have no clue what there vet has given the dog

We decided to go with the daily tablets.

You are very right that people have no clue what the vet gives the dog. I didn't. I think vets are prob afraid to say one product is better than another and only give info if you're informed enough to ask the right questions. I take nothing the vet says for granted anymore and do my own research.

These new 1 kg BARF rolls made my Canine Country are the way to go. I just cut and peel the plastic wrap off and leave the frozen roll on a tray in my fridge. My Shepherd just loves it and they have seven varieties to keep her happy. At only $4 a kg it leaves the Aussie Raw for dead as far as value. From the response of my Shepherd it gets the paws up! She had stopped eating the new Aussie Raw paste... My next door neighbour has a fussy Pom and she just loves it too. I now buy the bulk box 12kg for only $40 mixed.

Here is a photo from the barf shops online store..

Wow that's a much better way to buy BARF. Do you know what state they are in, I can imagine postage being very expensive.

Be careful with chicken wings too. I thought my pups were chewing them well as I taught them to chew by holding one end of wing to start with and then this week one of them crunched the wing twice and swallowed it. I spent rest of day stressing out that it would get stuck. It didn't, but found big enough bone pieces in poop to worry me about letting them have wings again. I'm going to try chicken frames. I've also tried lamb shanks and they chew those really well and bone too big to swallow. I don't let them have any bones unsupervised though.

Just started my first box of the new packaged patties and I think the new packaging is much less messy in the thawing process and I used to hate trying to seperate the round patties. The meat seems a lot fresher packaged this way. More the colour of what fresh meat should look like IMO. Just think the coloured cardboard box is extravagant and wasteful and probably why we have to pay more for it. I purchase a lot of patties (I use 1 box per day for my crew) and think they should offer a bulk size box with just the shrink packed patties inside (ie no fancy coloured cardboard box) and sell the bulk amount for less. I have to unbox them anyway to fit in to freezer.

I'd never give something that treats everything. I prefer to use a monthly heartworm that does just heartworm, worm them 3 or 4 times a year. Haven't treated a dog for fleas for several years now so why give them chemicals they don't need?

My sentiments exactly! :rolleyes:

Can't remember the last timeI laughed so much!

This is a whole other topic that would rage for ages. I can tell you that different vets also have different opinions on hip scoring. It is my understanding that the score you achieve can be affected by your vet's efficiency in achieving the position that Wyburn requires to achieve a consistent reading. The only way for a true consitent reading would be for all dogs to go to him and be xrayed etc.

When you are looking at a breed average of 12 some of the scores mentioned here are not that bad. Our black girl rarely lays in the frog position and she is 0/0 all round, The yellow boy is 3/5 hips and he lays like that all the time has done since 8 weeks and is now 5.

I have been interested in other peoples' responses to this topic for a couple of years and have asked the different vets we know. thier general opinion is that it has very little to do with hip scores and more to do with the general health of the dog. If your dog is fit and gets plenty of running exercise - suitable for age and breed - then they are often very comfortable in the frog position.

Having said that all our bitches are fitter, faster and more energetic than our boy is or has ever been. They all lay in that position sometimes but he prefers it.

Now I am not certain I am sold on all this info I just know what I have been told.

Thanks for your opinion I have heard this before and that how you grow your pup and it's health, diet and exercise play an important role. (Billinghurst's book 'Grow your pups with bones' goes along the lines of what you are saying regarding health of the dog).

How the !@#$ do you control other people and especially children from ooohing and aaahing and praising and patting and getting him all excited every time he jumps on them in greeting.

It's tough to to prevent other people from doing bad things. It's a socially awkward moment.

I've started standing on his lead to prevent him from jumping up when it's possible to do so.

My puppy sits on command but not when he's super-excited to be meeting a new person and they are encouraging him to jump.

He'll get there eventually I suppose.

How the !@#$! Luke I agree totaly, it is a very awkward moment. It takes a thick skin and a decision that your pups training is more important than some stranger (or perhaps friend) feelings at being told how to behave while you try and train your pup. I've taken the attidue that if you don't like it p...off (I don't actually say that....yet ) however, I refuse to have an obnoxious pup because some obnoxious person doesn't care that their ignorance at what I am trying to achieve becomes me having a problem pup. I have to say most people when you explain what you are trying to achieve have been very understanding. I have found that if you explain that you do not want your now 6kg? pup to jump and bowl over their 'beautiful' children when they are 30kg and that I appreciate their help in teaching my pup to learn that they cannot jump up etc etc....