Greytmate

The uni is claiming they are developing this test for the purpose of rehoming dogs. The info is in the link on the first post.

I don't think universities are allowed to lie about the nature of a particular study.

I don't think a cat would help.

Some dogs will bark because of something they can see, hear, or smell that is exciting or threatening. Some dogs bark for attention, and some bark out of boredom.

Can you set up a video camera to see what is triggering her barking?

The problem with any temperament test is that it fails to take into account breed type.

Except the behaviour tests that are designed for particular breeds.

The tests are designed to measure the behaviour against community standards for dogs being sold as pets, not correct breed temperament. A study like this one can only help design better tests.

Kirislin, your dog would never be euthanized simply because it fails a test. The reason why dogs are euthed is because they have been given up by the people responsible for them, and the resources are not available to bring them to adoptable standard and place them in homes. The tests allow available resources to be used most efficiently to help the greatest number of dogs. It is always a human failure when dogs are euthed. Whether through bad choice to buy a dog or somebody breeding dogs of poor temperament.

I've got Smokey Kelpies (They are not fawn or blue, they are true Smokey), and they can't be registered due to their colour. I'm often getting Kelpie breeders argue with me on their colouring. I have had a blue kelpie - totally different colouring, I've also got two fawn kelpies - again different colouring. I'm lead to believe that the blue and the fawn was crossed to create the smokey colouring, my guys are approx 4th generation smokey. The smokey is more of an actual grey, which once you see the two side by side you can see the difference. Unfortunately due to my old girls age and health issues, her coat is not the best condition any more, but in her day, she was a beautiful strong grey colouring.

I've never been interested in registering my guys as they are pets more than anything, but it frustrates me when people try to tell me what colour my dogs are. It can be very frustrating!

Have a read of the link I posted earlier a couple of times in this thread. It explains the genetics behind the colours.

Crossing blue with fawn isn't how another colour is created. I can understand why you might be getting in arguments with other people about it.

That is why things like conformation and temperament take precedence in good breeding programs because they are what makes the breed more than anything else

Couldn't agree more. But we cannot say that the writers/developers of the standards did not have this in mind as well. In many cases they did not have the advantages that we have with DNA testing and scientific understanding of diseases. How or why do we feel the need or right to dismiss the knowledge that they used when developing these standards? We may not know the reason for the decisions and we should not dismiss so easliy.

Possibly not but I would still maintain that colour is largely an arbitrary consideration in many cases, and while that may have been fine back in the days standards were written (remember that some human colours were also prejudiced against back then) these days if there is no good reason to exclude them and there is enough support to include them then a revision of some of these standards might be a reasonable thing to consider.

As I pointed out earlier in the thread many colours have persisted in breeds despite no active selection for them so they must be considered intrinsic and in many instances it appears that there is no logical reason for the exclusion other than personal preference, and preferences are subject to change especially over such long periods of time.

I think each breed needs to be looked at separately, because each will have it's own history and reasons for colour. I'm not in favour of breeding for colour at all, but I think it's fair enough to want to breed for strong pigment (really dark noses) and away from too much depigmentation, because there are pretty good reasons for pigment beyond the aesthetic.

I think there is a lot of waste happening in breeds where a colour gene is allowed to be expressed in some dogs and not others. Even if these mismarked dogs are popular as pets, they are mostly removed from the gene pool of breeding dogs, and that is to the detriment of the breed. I don't think it is always personal preference that leads to decisions being made. Parti poodles are very pretty dogs, but there are still good arguments for not breeding piebald dogs to each other. I tend to agree with puglver, old decisions shouldn't be overturned on a whim, because there are long-term consequences which will affect different breeds in different ways.

Thanks greytmate! Yep I meant treatment as in the sunscreen I'm just a bit reluctant to put it round his eyes

You can actually buy dog sunglasses (Doggles is one brand), but it depends on whether your dog is happy to wear them. If your dog has a sunbaking habit, you might like to keep him in an environment where he doesn't get the chance to do it. Probably your dog will not get skin cancer, but it is good to be aware that unpigmented areas are prone to burning.

Miss2, it's usually caused by genetics rather than being an illness you treat. You can get non-toxic dog sunscreen, or keep him out of the sun if he gets burnt. Other than that you can only hope more pigment develops as he ages. His nose has darkened quite a bit. Kelp and livamol both can improve pigment in dogs but they can't create it where there is none.

They often use fiprinil which is the same active ingredient as frontline. Find out what they are using if you can.

AWL should be able to do their own press release. TD or others can you contact Tim V and ask?

Well done Caz for following this through. Buddy's love won't be forgotten, and neither will his story.

I hope they do, much better than me doing it.

By them sending out a press release to all media, there is a chance quite a few places will run it. Caz also has some beautiful photos that could be supplied if she wants to do that.

That is good to hear Caz - news of those charges should be spread far and wide as a wake up call to other negligent groomers. It would be great if news of the fine could be "leaked" to the local news as well!

It doesn't need to be leaked. If Caz is ok with the idea, I will write a press release telling the whole story and send it out to a media list. This makes it easy for them to do a story if they want. If Caz would prefer somebody else write it, that's ok too.

That's good to hear Caz.

Can you let us know when you can legally name the salon? I think the story is newsworthy and should be aired by media to warn other people. Would you be happy to share the story?

Thanks for the info, I think the dun are quite attractive, and one of cases where I don't really get why an original colour should not be covered by the show standard. Guess someone had a reason.

Dun is allowed in the greyhound standard. But dark eyes are preferred and you won't really get that in a dun greyhound.

Show standards raise more questions than they answer sometimes. Some contain genetic impossibilities, such as a blue stafford with a black nose. Undesirable traits are sometimes called faults, sometimes disqualifications, and sometimes are unregistrable and unrecorded. Faults are undesirable and so are rare, and as such they are unique and so become desirable and risk becoming common. Then we are left wondering why they were once undesirable, and whether faults are actually problems or not.

I can see an advantage in only the breed of origin being able to make the call, but you would hope it's a country where the people behind the breed are in it for the right reasons and keep up with the genetic information that is becoming available.

I like the first one best Dog Geek, very rich and chocolatey. :)

The one called a chocolate parti seems to have a black nose, is it brown or black in real life? What about the blue and tan? It gets confusing as each breed uses its own names for different things.

Your orange parti has red reflecting eyes that I have seen in other breeds with the same colouring.

Greytmate, the chocolate parti is the one with the 'clown face' and definitely has a chocolate nose... the orange parti has a 'snow nose' happening, but is not ee because she was sabled as a puppy, and does have some black whiskers. She does throw cream puppies, though... so she is Ee.

The blue and tan has a blue nose...

Thanks Dog Geek, the photos make it hard to see true colour sometimes.

I am wondering if the dun in Greyhounds might have been a spontaneous mutation, as apparently they all trace back to one dog. It seems unlikely to me that the Grey people would have cross bred with anything as it was all purpose breeding and nothing else did the job better (unless perhaps a bit of Whippet - seems unlikely still). Perhaps one of the Greyhound enthusiasts will know.

Dun (bb) has been in greyhounds since pedigrees were first kept for coursing greyhounds in the 1790s, and there were some dun champions. Only successful bloodlines of greyhounds are sustained over time. For some reason, the duns became rarer. All dun greyhounds today feature a double cross of a 1950s greyhound called Rocket Jet. He was a black dog with Bb genes. For a long time before this dog, and ever since then, no dun dogs have been used for breeding. But one in three thousand of them are born bb.

I was interested in having a dun coloured greyhound, so I just had to wait until one came up. Then I got two at once. :laugh:

Woody is a solid dilute, like a weim. His parents were blue, and a blue brindle. Coconut is white and dun brindle, not dilute. One of her parents was black, one was white and brindle. She has chocolate stripes over fawn, and chocolatey brindle ticking. Woody has a dark liver nose and Coconut has a purple/liver nose.

Neither are exceptionally conformed, but they were good enough to race in Victoria.

I guess the existence of dun greyhounds in Australia, even though none have been bred with (and mine are desexed) shows how hard it is to get rid of a recessive gene if conformation/ability is the main aim and colour is totally ignored. But I have seen dun in galgos (spanish greyhounds) and apparently somebody has bred a dun litter of pets in the US. (idiots)

Greyhound standard is dark eyes preferred.

Yes that was my point. So presumably duns would not do well in the ring? As I think they have brown noses, and I don't think any dog with a genetically brown nose can have dark eyes?

I took my two dun greyhounds in the greyhound sweepstakes ring, and the judge clearly wasn't impressed with them. Neither of them have perfect conformation, but the judge didn't even bother to watch them moving, so I am guessing the light eye and coat colours didn't impress.

I don't know of any other dun greyhounds that have been in the ring. If you wanted to show a greyhound you wouldn't buy a dun greyhound, I'm not even sure if the colour is in show lines.

I like the first one best Dog Geek, very rich and chocolatey. :)

The one called a chocolate parti seems to have a black nose, is it brown or black in real life? What about the blue and tan? It gets confusing as each breed uses its own names for different things.

Your orange parti has red reflecting eyes that I have seen in other breeds with the same colouring.

Could they have been clipped? I know when I use to clip my horses in a rug clip (leaving legs and under belly hair long) the top clipped portion was considerably lighter then under hair.

And yes you can get a dilute Wei but here is what ANKC standard allows -> Silver, roe or mouse grey, as well as shades of these colours. Head and leathers generally slightly paler. Only small white markings on chest or toes permitted. Sometimes a more or less defined trace occurs along the back. Dogs with definite reddish yellow markings may only be given the classification good. Brown marking is a serious fault.

All weims are dilute. You never see weims in the undiluted colours of black or liver, they are all genetically dd.

Or is there a rare golden weim or something I am unaware of?

One time I saw two Weims... I swear they were Weims. From a distance, there was no question in my mind. They were the right size, shape and colour. But closer up, I could just make out dilute tan markings in a fairly typical black and tan kind of pattern. Eyebrows, muzzle, paws and a bit on the chest in one, I think. It was barely visible. I didn't ask the owner if they were purebred as I didn't want to be rude, but I was scrutinising those dogs and I couldn't see any other breed in them. Looked exactly like Weims. Is this colouring known in the breed?

Could it have been a blue dobe?

Just read the dachshund link and I find it interesting that they seem to lump piebald and merle into the same basket without any real evidence. They have surmised that because double merles have problems so will piebald to piebald. As far as i know merle to merle matings are know to cause a high incidence of problems but i still can't find any evidence that piebald to piebald does. Especially as in some breeds it is a very common practice and the breed has not suffered. Surely the piebald gene either causes problems or it doesn't. Or is it possible for it to cause problems in some breeds and not others?

It seemed to me that their issue is that piebald will hide the merle, leading to possible inadvertent merle to merle mating. They are not as worried about the effect of the piebald gene on its own.

There is deafness in breeds that have piebald. Steve questioned whether there is another gene at work and it isn't just the piebald gene on its own, but it is well known that a dog without pigment in its ears will be deaf. Usually piebald dogs have coloured ears, and so deafness isn't common, but the way the gene works is a little bit unknown. In some breeds, two piebalds can result in extreme white pups, and the pups have less colour than either parent. Not sure what happens in dachshunds.

Merle is a dominant patching gene, and cannot be hidden by pied. Pied is recessive to merle, and merles can carry (and do) carry it.

Merle and pied are different genes.The Merle is on the M locus and Merle (M) is dominant to non-merle.(m) The pied is the S locus and non-white (S) is dominant over some white (s), although it is incomplete dominance, and the gene seems to work differently in different breeds.

So a dachshund could express both Merle and Pied at the same time. The person who wrote the article was concerned that a lightly-marked merle dog might be identified as a pied and not as a merle (they gave photo examples), which might result in an undesirable double merle mating.

Can Blue Staffords actually get Main Reg. papers?

Yes.

Dark eyes appear softer and larger, especially in combination with a dark rim. Some of the companion breeds were selected for their cute, baby-like features (neotony) and large dark eyes would contribute a lot to this effect in breeds like cavaliers and pugs.

I have a theory about dilute, but no evidence at all, but would be interested if anyone thinks this might be true. The theory comes from observing greyhound colours. Racing greyhounds are never bred for colour, so you see breeding combinations of all the different colours.

The only dilute greyhounds I have known to have immune system problems (like CBS do) , are ones that resulted from a double dilute mating. The blue dogs with at least one solid parent were a slightly deeper shade of blue and tended not to have skin problems. The dilutes bred from two dilute parents also tended to have a different nose texture. Coarser and drier and lighter in colour. So my theory is that there is a lot more going on with that dilute gene than we realise. It's not just simple mendolian inheritance squares.

As we all know, CBS (Common Blue Staffy) are bred dilute to dilute to dilute till the cows come home. How else could they keep pumping out litters full of 'rarities'?

After reading more about poodles, (thanks poodle people), it seems that poodle breeders try to avoid breeding dilute to dilute over successive generations, to avoid 'fading'. They breed back to the darker colours. Is that correct poodle people? It's all a bit confusing with no uniformity of colour name across breeds. Is 'fading' just a cosmetic thing, or are there skin problems with these dogs?

So, to answer your question Steve , yes. I think there is a problem with the dilution gene that doesn't affect dogs who have a non-dilute parents. How this works, I have no idea. Just based on my own casual observation.

But, the BCS syndrome also results in poorly conformed dogs, because those breeders always prioritise colour over conformation. So I think there are two reasons why the CBS syndrome happens.

Problem is we need real studies and not assumptions - especially assumptions based on what happens in other breeds before anyone can say categorically that dilute in staffies causes more health problems.

Yes we do, and it's not something I would state categorically, it's a theory that could be proven or disproven. I was just wondering if anyone else had noticed this? Have there been any real studies on blue staffords or other dilute breeds?

A lot of non-dilute staffies have problems too. The thing with staffords is that the ethical breeders don't breed dilute to dilute because the dogs need to have a black nose. You couldn't compare their dogs directly with the large population of blue ones as they have more incentive to breed healthier dogs.

True. Weims are all dilute, but no immune or skin problems there.

Nope not true, SRMA has been found in Weimaraners, especially the BYB ones where breeders do not remove diseased animals from the breeding pool.

http://www.affielove....co.uk/SRMA.htm

Some Weimaraners can also suffer from too little pigmentation which can lead to UV sensitivity (sunburn), especially around the nose and eyes.

That is interesting, and supports the idea of the immune problems being a different gene, but near the dilute gene. The only weims I know are show dogs, so they are healthy.

Thanks for explaining your litter Dog Geek, not just a litter of solid chocolate pups, but a bit of a mix. Your Facebook page isn't working, it would be good to see them.

Remember that you can also see effects that are caused by genes that are located around the dilute gene. For example- there may be genes involved with the immune system that have no correlation to the dilute gene themselves, but sit next to them.

Thus you can get breeds where dilutes have no problems because they have managed to eliminate of of the surrounding genes that cause the problems you see. While breeds where almost all dilutes seem to have problems.

True. Weims are all dilute, but no immune or skin problems there.

I don't think you can separate eye colour from coat colour. If the breed standard allows dilute coats, they have to allow lighter eyes.

Just read the dachshund link and I find it interesting that they seem to lump piebald and merle into the same basket without any real evidence. They have surmised that because double merles have problems so will piebald to piebald. As far as i know merle to merle matings are know to cause a high incidence of problems but i still can't find any evidence that piebald to piebald does. Especially as in some breeds it is a very common practice and the breed has not suffered. Surely the piebald gene either causes problems or it doesn't. Or is it possible for it to cause problems in some breeds and not others?

It seemed to me that their issue is that piebald will hide the merle, leading to possible inadvertent merle to merle mating. They are not as worried about the effect of the piebald gene on its own.

There is deafness in breeds that have piebald. Steve questioned whether there is another gene at work and it isn't just the piebald gene on its own, but it is well known that a dog without pigment in its ears will be deaf. Usually piebald dogs have coloured ears, and so deafness isn't common, but the way the gene works is a little bit unknown. In some breeds, two piebalds can result in extreme white pups, and the pups have less colour than either parent. Not sure what happens in dachshunds.