Rex

Most of you have reading comprehension and anger management issues it seems. Also, the garbage proliferated by you that no dog other than a protection trained dog will ever be useful in a threatening situation is just pure, unadulterated crap.

My GSD is "extremely" effective in a non protection trained dog and useful in a threatening situation as he is instictively a stranger aggressive dog. However, I would be less confident in non aggressive friendly dog's reaction in the same circumstances.

By the way she already owns a GSD, how many more 'protection breeds' does she need? The point is if you are going to rely on the fact the dog is an X breed alone to protect you then you are simply deluding yourself.

This is the bit I don't understand with the expectation that another breed could be more effective than a GSD for what the OP requires in a dog. From a visual deterrent perspective, a GSD given it's reputation in protection especially in handler deployed attack training is to a large extent the top of the tree. Perhaps a Rottweiler or Doberman may provide a similar visual effect to deter a potential attacker in a well known guardian breed. Understanding that the OP's GSD failed her at a time of need, wouldn't it fair to say that her individual dog failed her, not the breed??? Perhaps the GSD she has trained accordingly could result in what she needs???.

Rex

My Kelpie X (actually all of my dogs ) will bark their heads off if someone pokes their head over the fence. Heads with no bodies attached are not normally seen over the top of fences and I would expect most dogs to bark at this. My Kelpie cross has a reactive nature and barks at lots of things - kids screaming in swimming pools next door when I lived with my parents, lawnmower going next door. She is also not a stable dog and is scared of thunderstorms and fireworks and buses that backfire loudly. She is the least likely to do anything serious

Don't they hate bodyless heads poking over the fence, it's true that most dogs will go ape!!!. These type of incidents like in my mothers case is what I believe some determine as their dog "stepping up to the plate" in protection.

I have some experience with dogs who are bred for this line of work. They need training, lots of it. All of them need to be trained to be completely sociable and civil (if that is possible), and then to either never bite (proofed) or to bite when cued (also proofed). Anything less is a liability.

It would be a terrible mistake to purchase a dog from working lines then just hope that one day it will do it's job, for it probably will - whether you want it to or not.

If we are talking about dogs not from working lines, then I'm wasting my time. The probabilities are reduced further, as the OP has already found out the hard way.

At last a realistic post that tells it how it is, well done

I have a hard line GSD who's lines have been successfully used in security/police work and in fact from breeders who actually advertise their litters capable of this work, not the usual "unsuitable for guard/security purposes" common in many GSD sales advertisements. These lines are "NOT" lovely sociable friendly animals as many who knew a police dog etc etc try to maintain, they are high drive instinctively nasty disposition dogs who want to bite everyone and the training required to make them sociable and civil is extensive and on going and an "absolute" liability untrained and in the wrong hands as they "WILL" chase and bite no question.

No, they're stepping up because the sense or realise that at THAT MOMENT the alpha is unable to fulfill their duties.

Are you comfortable that your dog will always make the right split second decision?

It's not just my dog, poodlefan, it's potentially many, many dogs who are currently co-existing in suitable dynamic with their owners who have not yet had the question asked of them.

I'm MORE than comfortable, poodlefan, I'm ALIVE.

And what are you suggesting I should do with my dog because he did this?

One of the most tragic stories I ever heard was told to me by the owner themselves. One day they were carjacked at knifepoint by a known criminal with serious prior offences. The usually friendly and stable family dog reacted by jumping from the back seat and taking the criminal down, then holding it until the police arrived. On the strength of the kind of crap you're dispensing the owner chose to put the dog down for fear it would attack the family. Is that what I should do with my dog?

Whoa there Nelly... quantum leap of logic there!!

How on earth did we get from me asking if you were confident a dog would always (emphasis there) make the right decision about threats to you deciding I advocated that any dog that did protect its owner should be put down???

What I'm saying is this. People who confidently assert that their untested dog will instinctively know when a person means harm (and as importantly when they don't) and will take the leadership role to engage are asking more of their pets than a the handler of a trained security/protection dog does. I hope people think about that.

I said that whether a pet would protect you was a matter of luck not certainty. How you conclude from that I think a dog that protects its owner should be PTS escapes me.

I agree with that statement Poodlefan. I beleive it's a huge call in the confidence of an untested and untrained dog that it instinctively will determine a threatening situation and act accordingly to protect.

Steve - what you describe a Maremma as doing would be the extent to which I personally would be comfortable with my dog behaving! For me in my normal day-to-day life I would want a dog that is comfortable being around other people and dogs when in a public area but that is happy to put itself between me and a threat and bark a warning!

Having seen several Maremmas do their *Warning bark* I believe that would deter most people.

I am not posting much now as my original question has been answered by several PMS and now by Steve but the thread is proving fascinating nd I am learning a lot. Will be curious to see the results of the test Jeff.

I am assuming (possibly incorrectly) that your hypothesis is that most dogs who have not done protection trainig will NOT protect their owners in the presence of a threat?

I am yet to see a Maremma however in pictures they resemble a Golden Retriever in appearance. Are they larger than a GR or in the flesh look nothing like them???.

all dog that are planed for protection work should be socialised like any other puppies if not more

in the world of police and militry and protection work if ur dog cant go some were because it has issuse that dog will eather be sold on depending on how bad the problem is or retrained

you want a dog that can handel people being friendly and miss gided as well as a angre/drunk numb skull the dog has to be a ALL ROUNDER not matter what

Not in all types of protection work. My GSD for example as suggested to me by a police K9 trainer has the right disposition for a security officers patrol dog perhaps school security, shopping centres, factories at night, places where people shouldn't be other than for the wrong reasons. A dog high in prey drive and alert to movement with social aggression where they fire straight out of the blocks without cue provides a safer environment for the security officer in that work. Someone hiding around a corner waiting to plonk the security officer with a dog that accepts strangers and works on que only, may be too late to remove the threat, dog too slow to react and protect.

Not exactly Poodlefan. A wolf pack is complex but an aplha is a resource to the pack and they will defend them and their territory. But again its a complicated issue that would require long discussion.

So a dog that is never allowed to exercise leadership over a person is expected to take the lead in defensive situation? Dogs that have been socialised from puppyhood never to put teeth on a human are expected to "naturally" take a person on? Unlike past times, we generally socialise our dogs to greet strangers positively, not tear strips off them.

We've had plenty of discussion on alpha wolf theory on this forum. Most of those discussions note that the original research that developed the theory was conducted on captive wolves and was fundamentally flawed. None of that theory has ever been tested in an inter species context. Dogs know we ain't dogs. If they do protect us, are we a resource to them?

Professional protection dog trainers have said time and again on this forum that people are deluding themselves if they genuinely expect an untrained dog, even of a guarding/protection breed, to step up when required. Those views have been poo pooed by many owners.

I'd say this thread proves the pros right. You may get lucky.. but then again.. why put your safety down to luck? :D

My mother tells a story which happened about 10 years ago where a spate of break in's were occurring in the area where she lived. One day she heard the door bell ring whilst in the backyard with her trusty old Golden Retriever and just as she was about to walk inside to answer the door a rough looking teenage kid poked his head over the side fence. Her old Goldie

saw the kid, rushed at the fence barking furiously and the kid pulled his head back over. My mother asked the kid what he wanted and asked if John lived there???. Mum swears on a stack of bibles that old Sammy was about to tear the kid's head off in full protection mode, he did the job, too big a dog with a big bark for the kid to be brave enough to case her house again, but ultimately old Sammy I know for a fact would have done "nothing" if the kid had jumped the fence and would have hid behind mum for protection in the crunch or run away. The result was good, mum felt safe and the kid was wary of the dog never to return.

The moral of this story is an incident where as my mother does, believed her dog had stepped up to the plate to protect at all costs which many do. This type of occurrence although removed the threat does not indicate that the dog was fired to fight for life and death.

I just laugh when I see people with usually large aggressive looking dogs say to me just watch out my dog will protect me to the death and yea there they are on the end of a lead or behind a fence going ape at me like they would just love to kill me. I've had 90 percent of these dogs either eating out of my hand or running scared with a yell and a run at them or a stern command .With the owner still near me most will ususally not run too far before turning back for another bark. Even the ones with balls don't attack straight out. They stand their ground and let you know you'll have a fight on your hands if you continue your dominant display.

I've had a shepherd and a shepherd cross who were both runners. Smart loving dogs who I'm sure would assist me in a fight if I was winning but run and bark from a distance if the going got tough.

The only dog I have known that I really believe would fight to the death to protect his owner or even his stuff when his owner was out of the room or house was a bully cross blue heeler my uncle owned. Never barked or made a fuss and was friendly as hell when out with his owner but just move wrong when my uncle wasn't there or get my uncle upset and he would rush you and stand there growling. I got a couple of warning nips in the time I knew him and he was almost shot by a couple of coppers who he had bailed up out the back of my uncles home. The cops were chasing a crook over back fences and the crook was too quick for the dog but the cops were not allowed to leave.

Jeez I loved that dog. I still have a fang mark on my neck and every time I shave I smile when I see it.

I wouldn't call that a cleaver practice to believe that you can dominate every cranky dog and remain uninjured. Try out a police K9 GSD next time you see the squad. Ask the officer if you can give his dog a yell and run to see if it backs down. Most dog handlers would be glad to oblige and let us know what happens.

Furthermore to protection dogs, are they "really" protecting something or someone, or are they being deployed to react in a certian way to a particular situation as a defence mechanism or tool of the trade. I don't believe that my GSD is protecting me personally, I believe he is more dominating strangers but the result of that is a big set of bared teeth and big bark between me and a possible threat which makes the threat retreat. Either way it achieves the same effect.

Hi Rex,

He is mostly disinterested. He will stand still and allow himself to be stroked or patted if I am next to him but otherwise he is calm and aloof - certainly does not seek attention but would no more fire up than fly to the moon. If he is with another dog who is aggressive then he will fire up but on his own, absolutely not.

He is the same with other dogs - prefers to ignore them - if they are wildly submissive ie puppies licking at his mouth and lying on tehir backs he will stand their attention for a while but basically he prefers to remain aloof. Having said that, a dog that is at all dominant who tries to put their chin on his back for example he will fire up at.

Your GSD Brooke sounds like the temperament that we were hoping for lol!!!. Our's is completely different where he will reliably fire up at any strangers people and dogs unless we command him not to which has been the focus of his training to date. With this thread in mind, I tested him today on our walk and watched his reactions. Walking along at ease when spotting a stranger he is alert to them and watches intently, neck stretched, tail out straight. On a "leave it" command, he looks at me and the tail drops, keeps looking at the stranger but doesn't react. Without a "leave it" command, he will gather speed to the end of the leash when the stranger is about 10 meters in front of us approaching and bark furiously pulling on the leash up on his back legs bearing his teeth. An "out" command now trained, he drops back into a heel position and behaves. In a "leave it sit command", he will sit quietly where a stranger can approach and talk. If I command "up", he will fire up bark and lunge at them. His instinct is to "get em", his training is to behave. He won't fire up on command or bark on command, he behaves on command. A great natural defender, but a handful of dog to control.

I have had another reply from someone wanting there dog tested but it is of a breed of dog that has already been selected. I would prefer to test a completely different breed of dog rather than sticking with dogs that are normally used for protection / service work to have some variety with the testing process. Numerous breeds of dogs have been mentioned in this thread such as Labradors - Blue Heelers - Kelpies who people believe have previously acted in protection of there owner. Scenarios where protection of the handler will be played out during the testing process, you will get a proper evaluation as to whether your dog is actually acting in protection of you.

What is the purpose of testing breeds that are essentially not used in protection work. Wouldn't the testing of these breeds have been done before, evaluated as unsuitable and be the reason they are not used???.

Because, as Jeff said, numerous breeds like Labs/Blue heelers/kelpies have been mentioned in this thread as capable of acting in protection of their owner. So, he wants to find one of these breeds to assess to see if that really is the case.

Jeff should already know given his experience what breeds work and what don't. I am thinking out loud here, but we don't need silly results from this test for example testing a weak nerved Rottweiler against a feisty Cattle Dog then claiming a Cattle Dog to be a better protector when we all know in reality that a hard line Rotty would eat the most feirce of Cattle Dogs for breakfast??

Same applies with some small breeds, totally driven by aggression massive protection instinct except that a 6 year old kid could nail one with a pair of Adidas runners. Hardly a useful protection dog but has the correct drives???

Hi Fitz Kettle and the totally gorgeous Morgan,

Yes I didn't ever want to run the risk of my dog injuring someone but just like you, I assumed the dog would act as a deterrent at least - ah well, good thing he trusts me to keep him safe and is a well-behaved dog! After all, every day I am his leader and need him to trust me to make decisions ......and hopefully never again will we be in the situation we were in the other day so....

All's well! and yes puppy pics can't help but lift anyone's spirits!

Brooke just out of interest, how does your GSD act in the presence of strangers generally, does he fire up at them, allow strangers to pat him, is he generally cranky with stangers or friendly. Off lead if a stanger appeared in a park, would he chase them and bail them up barking given the opportunity and does he fire up at strange dogs???.

I have had another reply from someone wanting there dog tested but it is of a breed of dog that has already been selected. I would prefer to test a completely different breed of dog rather than sticking with dogs that are normally used for protection / service work to have some variety with the testing process. Numerous breeds of dogs have been mentioned in this thread such as Labradors - Blue Heelers - Kelpies who people believe have previously acted in protection of there owner. Scenarios where protection of the handler will be played out during the testing process, you will get a proper evaluation as to whether your dog is actually acting in protection of you.

What is the purpose of testing breeds that are essentially not used in protection work. Wouldn't the testing of these breeds have been done before, evaluated as unsuitable and be the reason they are not used???.

How can a dog running purely on instinct interpret each 'dangerous' situation appropriately? Don't you understand the danger in letting the dog decide for itself when is the appropriate time to aggress and when isn't?

This is what I'm questioning, Huski. If my dog and other dogs (Jed's dogs for example) can do it with no problems, so can other dogs.

What Huski is saying is absolutely correct from my experiences. My GSD could only interpret that "strangers" were a threat be it a knife weilding bandit or a 4 year old child, no difference, he wanted to "get em" regardless which was the problem.

Training is the "only" way I believe that a dog can interpret situations. A generally friendly dog that barks and perhaps snaps at situation dangerous to it's owner pushed harder untrained will flee not fight at the crunch. I know my GSD will fight a stranger and protect untrained, but I wouldn't guarantee he would protect me for real if a mutual friend of mine and the dog's ended up in a scrap together as his instincts to protect are focused upon strangers.

Forget full blown personal protection dogs which she made clear that she didn't want, what she wanted was a dog that would fire up, look the business and stay by her side during the ordeal, not turn tail and run. My GSD in the same situation by natural instinct based purely upon his disposition towards strangers would have stopped the guy in his tracks simply due to him getting up on his back legs at the end of the leash barking furiously with his teeth hanging out. The guy wouldn't have the anatomy to proceed with an attack, especially if telling the guy to back off as the dog is attack trained and you will release him if necessary. It would take a "very brave" person not to retreat in those circumstances.

But, as you discovered Rex, without a fair amount of training dogs like yours can become dangerous and out of control.

How can a dog running purely on instinct interpret each 'dangerous' situation appropriately? Don't you understand the danger in letting the dog decide for itself when is the appropriate time to aggress and when isn't?

Huski, are you saying any dog with a guarding instinct is a dangerous dog unless trained in protection?

No, I'm saying that without a fair amount of training they can become dangerous and out of control - just like Rex's dog did.

Most high drive working line dogs aren't ideal for the average pet owner, and anyone who wants to own one needs to be prepared to put in a lot more training and work into the dog than you would a breed from "weaker" lines, or the dog can become bored, out of control, and yes - dangerous.

Hey, I will be absolutely honest to say that my GSD by the time he was 14 months old was an absolute bugger of a thing giving the impression that he wanted to chase and bite everyone. My wife refused to walk him after pulling her off her feet twice trying to bail up other dog walkers, he was a total nightmare. If it wasn't for the fact with us, he was the most gentle, affectionate and loving dog we have owned in 30 years, Rainbow Bridge would have been another option. He was becoming dangerous and a legal liability and no pleasure to be with him in a public place.

We had no idea how to handle and train a dog like that, not a clue after 30 years of Golden Retrievers made matters far worse. I am confident now that raising another hard line GSD, administering the correct training required would make things a whole lot easier a second time around from what we have learned and experienced.

Rex - but that is on top of the two dogs she already has - i think she could actually work with the GSD she already has. Build confidence, speak/snarl/stir up on command, 'watch' etc and don't let go of the lead - she doesn't want the dog to self decide to maul someone who bumps into her on the footpath, but one that will perhaps stand with her and at least offer a visual deterance - even if just by perception.

Neither of my dogs would even lift a tail to defend my OH - but they will both stand with me as required and have done so previously.

ETA - no..perhaps i was wrong?

I too believe Brooke's GSD is workable at the level of protection she needs, but I am not convinced in untrained protection that you will attain a nice easily handled dog that cranks up on command. My GSD is a great visual protector, a perceived nasty defender in those circumstances, but was a handful of dog to control prior to extensive training. My GSD just doesn't like strangers full stop, doesn't need them in his life or personal space and seems to enjoy getting rid of them, scaring them away which looks to him as a victory. If you could read his mind, the impression he gives me, is like he is proud of the way he barked and bellowed and made someone go away, almost game like???. His training was all about teaching him not to react to strangers and behave nicely, not training to make him fire up which is what he does instinctively.

There is a bit too much "rocket science" in dog behaviour etc etc being thrashed around in this thread. Having a re-read of the OP question, she has a GSD that did a runner when she needed his presence to assist her from what could have been a voilent assault causing her bodily injury. She has a guardian breed dog that didn't do his job, fair question.

Forget full blown personal protection dogs which she made clear that she didn't want, what she wanted was a dog that would fire up, look the business and stay by her side during the ordeal, not turn tail and run. My GSD in the same situation by natural instinct based purely upon his disposition towards strangers would have stopped the guy in his tracks simply due to him getting up on his back legs at the end of the leash barking furiously with his teeth hanging out. The guy wouldn't have the anatomy to proceed with an attack, especially if telling the guy to back off as the dog is attack trained and you will release him if necessary. It would take a "very brave" person not to retreat in those circumstances.

All I see that is required is an individual dog with a bit of drive and wariness of strangers to satisfy the OP's requirements.

My GSD would have taken the guy's arm off before he raised it,

Brilliant. Then been possibly put down for being a dangerous dog. Nice going Rex.... Ever stopped to think that if your big tough attack dog actually did bite someone then its good bye dog? Before you add your comments about how he is "trained" and "if its on your property, its not the dogs fault if it attacks" Take a long hard look at some of the recent dog stories in the news. If some small child wanders near your dog or sticks its hands through a fence to reach your dog and it "defends its territory" I doubt people will say "oh leave the dog be, tis defending its territory" Odds on your dog would be destroyed.

especially if you threaten to release the dog if they fail to move on

thank you Mr Burns. "Smithers, release the hounds!"

Rubbish, this is where people need to learn and understand the laws that govern dogs. Sad as it may be, if people don't "train" their children how to behave around dogs and to understand that dogs have teeth that can cause them harm is not my problem. Kids can't stick their hands through my fence in the first place, no gaps in the fences large enough, not an issue. In the instance where my dog is leashed as it is in public and someone wishes to get within it's 2 metres of personal space permitted under the laws of SA and wishes to interfere with me or my dog and gets bitten, bad luck, the dog will not be destroyed at all. Dogs are not fair game for all and sundry to have the right to mess with. My dog, my property leave it alone and if you want a dog to pat and cuddle, buy your own is my stand on the matter.

My dog behaves perfectly within the boudaries of it's leash in public, but rush at me aggressively with my choice not to command the dog to "leave it", watch out, he will fire up, that's how it is.

Thanks everyone. no I am not rehoming my boy - he is very loved and a great dog. I am not sure about purchasing another dog or not - really just wanted some informed opinions as to what might be good.

My dog is from working lines but was assessed by the Police Force three years ago and although he flew through the early assessment process was returned with the comment *Too nice of a dog* which I think is a very polite way of saying *What a wuss!*

Perhaps if I can work with a trainer who can teach him the *happy bark* as Cosmolo suggested - that would be useful - I am sure that if he had stood his ground or looked excited even coupled with a bark that this guy would have backed off.

It was a really upsetting experience and thank you all for your advice.

ETA Steve - I had originally thought about a Maremma but wasn't sure if one would be happy as an inside dog? I am at home full-time so leaving it alone wouldn't be an issue.

The beauty of a GSD is that a would be offender can never be totally confident that the dog hasn't been protection trained given their reputation and success in that line of work. If the dog was trained to bark on command with some leash agitation to razz him up a bit, a threat will back away especially if you theaten to release the dog if they fail to move on will generally prevent the situation you experienced.

Can a dog be declared dangerous if it was protecting you from an attacker who was attempting to cause great harm to you?

The laws vary in each state. Provocation when the dog reacts to it's owner being attacked is generally acceptable.

Hi everyone,

I live in a suburban area although we walk to the river and through parks every day so my GSD has lots and lots of exercise (both on and off-leash)

I have had two very bad incidents in the past and that was a factor in choosing a GSD as my breed. have always felt safe with my GSD as I believed that most people would choose not to attach someone with a scarey looking dog. He also has a huge, deep bark that would deter most (if not all) would be burglars.

Anyway, last week there was an incident when a mentally disturbed man attacked me verbally and then attempted to punch me. I ducked to avoid hima nd let go of my GSD's leash. My 4 year old GSD promply bolted and left me to try and avoid this guy.

I love my dog as he is and do NOT want him attack-trained etc BUT I did feel that a natural protective instinct would kick in if he believed I was in actual danger.

Are there any breeds of dogs that are naturally protective but not aggressive eg like a Maremma? I have owned a Maremma before andc loved that I wasn't afraid theyw ould attack someone but that they would do what it took to protect me. Unfortunately living in such a suburban area as I do I doubt that a Maremma would be happy there.

Any other suggestions please?

Strangely only last night in another thread, I was having this very discussion about weak nerved GSD's bred for show/pet purposes and the "exact" discussion that I mounted was "when it comes to the crunch, the weak nerve GSD's will run away, they won't protect you" and everyone wanted to argue about it telling me I was wrong???.

It's not the breed Brooke, it's the breeding of your dog to produce weak nerved, soft temperament more socially acceptable animals free of civil aggression. My GSD would have taken the guy's arm off before he raised it, infact the guy wouldn't have been game enough to approach us once he was switched into defence drive. With a hard temperament and strong nerve dog, the training is preventing them from barking,chasing, attacking, not teaching them to react which is the difference. A GSD from a breeder perhaps a working line or a strong showline that do produce dogs capable of protection/security work would suit your requirements, but such breedings are difficult dogs to control and require training practices by professional people with experience in handling them correctly.

Well of course Rex.

You own them.

They are not a prohibited breed either, did you know that???.

It is unfortunate that they didn't include extremely HA breeds, eg, the Fila Brasiliero, in the study. I suspect that, had they done so, they would have come to a different conclusion.

The more I read on the Fila, the more I conclude that it is a true example of breeding for hostility to those outside the pack can be successful . . . and that aggression can be inbred. I would encourage others to Google the breed and read what clubs and breeders have to say. Breed advocates, in general, agree that good puppies show "aversion" to strangers from a very early age. Show standards say it's ok for the dog to bite the judge . . . dogs are supposed to be aggressive to strangers. Also, that you need to put a lot of training into your pup if you want to end out with a dog that won't attack your house guests.

Note, this is not an anti-Fila campaign. From what I can gather, the Fila is a lovely breed . . . but dangerous if not managed properly. I think the danger is adequate to justify laws. I have no doubt that the HA tendencies could be bred out if breeders were so inclined. . . .but in general they aren't. Ok in rural Brazil (unless you are an indigenous person who feels it's ok to nick an occasional bovine that has been put on your ancestral land . . . or a jaguar).

I am against BSL for the APBT, Rotti, Dobe, or GSD. But, in principle, I think legislative solutions are appropriate where selective breeding brings out HA or DA potential. It is unfortunate that the law is not skilled enough to affect the cause .. . . breeders who breed for a weapons grade dog or a dog for the fighting ring. I think that blanket anti-BSL attitudes are a denial that aggressive tendencies can be hereditary . . . and thus lessen the pressure to breed for dogs who can easily be trained to standards that are acceptable in Australia (or other places where gunslingers, kidnappers, pirates, and other outlaws don't have a major impact on day to day life).

The GSD is one breed that has been toned down from conscious breeding practices to better suit pet homes. Our GSD is an original temperament hard bloodline dog with high civil aggression of type selected for use in Police/security work. It's to the point with GSD's that our necessity to muzzle our boy at the Vets nowdays is an unusual practice where the Vet mentioned not having seen an aggressive GSD for years. The breeders in many show line GSD's have eliminated in many cases, the hard temperament dogs from their breeding stock to result in a more easily handled softer more friendly dog. The breeders who continue to breed the hard line GSD's and working line dogs are a minority and very selective as to whom these dogs are sold to. Although there are some GSD breeders maintaining the hard line dogs, many are producing a more docile version of the breed for pet/suburban applications.

Honestly I have had much more success with a clicker and treats in changing my dog's response to seeing another dog coming than I did by using leash corrections. Part of this is likely to be the change in my body language and handling techniques as I am calmer as I am giving the dog an opportunity to gain a reward rather than waiting to give a correction. While I still have to give her distance from other dogs, her demeanor is much happier and she is happy to give me attention rather than give the other dog her whole focus with negativity. My aim is not to get her to know she can't get other dogs but to reduce her desire to. Luckily she is very food motivated and very keen to work with clicker and treats

What happens in a situation without a clicker and treat say for instance the dog slipped past you at the gate whilst focusing on a dog walking past on the street when the dog has learned to obey a click and reward???.

I will say honestly that it would be a bad thing if my dog slipped past me at the gate while focussing on a dog walking past. Too late to do much but try to grab her somehow by that stage. I certainly hope this would never happen. Since my front yard is fenced and she can't see out, and she does not go out the front door (into front fenced area) without a lead on she would not get the opportunity.

The Police K9 trainer who assisted us with our GSD, explained in his opinion that clicker/treat training methods were unreliable that the dog "must" obey voice commands at all times. He said that complete positive reinforcement methods although can and do work for family pet situations to reach a reasonable level of obedience, they don't work in Police dog training were a dog must work in real time life and death situations that occur in the job. He demonstrated this with our dog fired up at the fence and offering him a piece of chicken. He wasn't interested in the treat until the dog he was barking at on the street had passed by, then he came back looking for the piece of chicken???. He then told us that all is needed, is a leash and your voice, no treats whatsoever whilst training???. He believed that the clicker/treat method taught the dog to respond to the clicker for a treat which although a distraction away from what it was doing, it didn't teach the dog what you wanted it to do in any particular circumstances.