wantasounddog

Great post. If I ever get a puppy again I'll also ask:

* What kind of return policy do they have? If they don't have a life time return policy, I wouldn't deal with them.

* What do you do to help breed rescue? I understand that not every breeder has the resources to actually take on rescues, but if their answer is "not my problem" then personally I wouldn't deal with them either.

* How many litters do you breed a year? Where do your dogs live? How many breeding bitches do you have? I'd like to flush out the puppy farmers. Of course, a relatively high number doesn't mean that they are necessarily a puppy farmer, but when combined with the above questions I think they would stand out.

I agree with megan. At least a 12 mth return policy. (everything else you buy has a 12 mth warranty) Some genetic disorders occur after the 8 week handover.

It's all sorted. The issue certainly makes interesting conversation.

According to Dr Wyburn elbow dysplasia in dogs is highly inheritable. You do need to go back to the owners of both sire and dam of this pup and tell them about the problem. Breeders should be kept in the loop about what problems their dogs are producing.

yep, the breeder knows all about the problem. what she does with the info..... ???? She is still showing the full brother and sister (winning too) - future breeding stock i'd say. I think a system needs to be in place to follow the family tree of all dogs affected. Apparantly only 150 chosen vet practices compile the stats in australia.

Er - hang on a minute - this discussion is getting a bit bogged down.

What the breeder chooses to "do" to satisfy Wantasounddog is actually up to the breeder.

As I suggested in an earlier post Wantasounddog needs to state his case and then agree a course of action with the breeder.

Whether or not the breeder is exhibitting litter mates and whether or not they are winning is the breeders business.

So too does the decision whether or not those siblings are ultimately included in a future breeding programme.

Wantasounddog - you suggest that "the breeder knows all about the problem - what she does with the info????".

Well nobody can answer that question other than you and the breeder.

I'll ask again - what have you actually asked the breeder to do to resolve the issues you are experiencing with your young dog?

If you've not asked for anything then you can't expect a resolution can you?

I have to make a response to this. What happened to a breeders responsibility? Aren't they breeding dogs to supply the pet market as well as servicing their own hobby?

I don't think I get this forum. Im new at this. Im answering to personally. Please let this thread die!

According to Dr Wyburn elbow dysplasia in dogs is highly inheritable. You do need to go back to the owners of both sire and dam of this pup and tell them about the problem. Breeders should be kept in the loop about what problems their dogs are producing.

yep, the breeder knows all about the problem. what she does with the info..... ???? She is still showing the full brother and sister (winning too) - future breeding stock i'd say. I think a system needs to be in place to follow the family tree of all dogs affected. Apparantly only 150 chosen vet practices compile the stats in australia.

Your sooooooo right not to breed from dogs with more than 0 in the score. That makes perfect sense. I know that the guide dog association wont use male dogs with anything but zero.

funny enough hips scored 10 or 11? but vet said balls not such a good shape. Elbows 2 each side but showed arthritis.

I must say that I'm surprised that a dog with grade 2 elbows shows such extreme symptoms. I have bred a bitch who had one elbow graded 2 and she is completely asymptomatic. The swollen hocks also have me a little puzzled.

I also cannot understand how a dog with 'balls not such a good shape' scored 10 or 11, or do you mean 10 or 11 for each hip? Were the x-rays sent away for scoring or is this your vet's assessment?

Regarding your question on management and 'how long did they last' I know of a bitch with UAP in both elbows who had surgery and lived happily for 11 1/2 years and my very first dog had severe HD and lived until he was 13. Keeping the dog lean, regular cartrophen injections, fish oil and a supplement such as Joint Guard can help a lot.

Hi Miranda,

Thanks for your reply. I feel abit better now about the situation with my boy. It is still a mystery to my vet also on the degree of pain to the dog given that the x-rays weren't that bad. My dogs probably faking it so he remains a house dog.

This is a subject that I have unforunately dealt with a little too often with dogs I have bought.

So here is some information that I have collected along the way.

Just because both parents are a 0:0 does not mean the pup cannot get Elbow Dysplasia.

One of mine came from a line of good scores, so on paper, all would appear good. BUT.... turns out that a certain dog or line in the pedigree when doubled up has caused a double/triple up of the gene (in a quick explanation) and hence produced a problem.

When did you have your dog hip and elbow scored ? I am assuming the dog is now over a year old ?? The dog can still be fine for a pet, but I wouldnt include it in my breeding program.

The research from the continents of Europe, Britain, Australia, and USA has shown that elbow disease is inherited . There is also information to show that those dogs with the more severe lesions are most likely to produce puppies with serious elbow disease. Consequently grade 3 elbow disease dogs should not be used for breeding and the grade 2 cases should be considered as serious risks.

Moderate Arthosis (Grade 2) = one or more of the following findings:

• (a) osteophytes 2 - 5 mm high on the anconeal process

• (b) moderate osteophyte formation (2 - 5 mm in any direction) on locations b, c, d.

The front limbs of a four legged animal act as the animal’s fulcrum. Imagine a dog as a teeter-totter. The head and neck form one end, and the back and hind legs the other end. If a dog has hip dysplasia, it is possible for him to get up from a sitting position by throwing his head and neck down, thereby lightening the load on his rear. He can also trot around with his head down. Watch for it in the show ring! It is not possible, however, for him to lighten the load on the front legs in a corresponding manner. Elbow dysplasia is most often bilateral, though one leg will appear worse than the other. A dog with elbow dysplasia will exhibit great difficulty in lowering his front when he tries to lie down. He will lower each leg a little at a time. He’ll rise to a sitting position in a similar manner.

Grade I Elbow Dysplasia

Minimal bone change along anconeal process of ulna (less than 3mm).

Labrador Retrievers (By Birth Year)

1990 thru 1993 3,492 Labradors evaluated, 11.5% ED

1994 thru 1997 8,915 Labradors evaluated, 12.3% ED

1998 thru 2001 10,703 Labradors evaluated, 10.1% ED ( = 1070 dogs affected)

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected.

However, multiple current studies (1, 4, 5) have all concluded that the heritability of ED (defined as UAP, FCP, or OCD) is moderate to high.

Grading System:

Grade 0 = normal elbows (no enthesophyte formation)

Grade 1 = Mild ED (<2mm thickness of new bone formation)

Grade 2 = Moderate ED or a primary lesion (2mm to <5 mm of new bone)

Grade 3 = Severe ED (5+ mm of new bone formation or UAP)

In fact, one study found that the heritability factor of elbow problems was even higher than that for hip dysplasia!

thanks so much for the info! ive done alot of research on the topic but this info is much more direct. My lovely boy is almost 15 months now and has been under the direction of my new vet for the past 2 months. xrays were taken about 3 weeks before he suddenly bacame almost parralysed. He slept all day and nignt for 4 weeks when it just happened. Swelled up like a balloon in front legs and hocks. antibiotics reduced the swelling big time but is still quite lame. we are not sure if the dysplasia has anything to do with the possible polly arthritis yet. we are holding back on more x-rays(3rd set) and blood tests as we have not even had him a full year yet and dont have endless funds to spend on an already compromised dog. He's also suffered mange, and an enlarged prostate. He is desexed now.

out of interest, how did you manage your affected dogs and how long did they last????

Hi there Wantasounddog - very sorry to hear about the problems you are experiencing.

Could I ask a few questions just to clarify the situation please.

1. did you purchase your puppy from a registered breeder?

2. did the breeder show you the hip & elbow score results for both parents (these tests are mandatory)?

3. Do you remember what the parents elbow scores were?

4. Have you contacted the breeder to discuss your problems?

5. has the puppy had elbow (and hip) xrays to confirm diagnosis?

And finally - I don't quite understand your last question - but could problems occur within 4 weeks?

If you are asking whether signs of elbow dysplasia can manifest within a 4 week period the answer is quite definately yes.

Initially it will show up as slight lameness during or after exercise.

Within a short period this could develop into complete immobility as a result of small bone particles becoming wedged in the elbow joint.

Hi,

1. yes 2. yes -mother 16 hips but breeder said thats ok (aust grand champ) dad - 7 (nz grand champ) 3. both elbows 0. 4. yes, assumed the kids extra food did it. 5. yes. funny enough hips scored 10 or 11? but vet said balls not such a good shape. Elbows 2 each side but showed arthritis.

The dog had been good for 6 months (after meds rest ect) then suddenly was lame as buggery. New vet isnt sure if it was polly arthritis all along but first vet said elbow dysplasia.

Sorry, the 4 week comment. We got the pup at 4 months and he showed signs of lameness by 5 mths.

Ive had labs before this one, purchased from country no\show backgrounds (when I was a kid) and had no problems. Trying to establish what went wrong this time so not to repeat the drama.

I'm not a breeder but IMO environment does play a part in what a dog's genetic potential achieves.

Overfeeding and over exercising are practices simply begging for a pup to have skeletal issues. Most Lab pups I see are way too fat.

I know of a Golden Retriever whose owners failed to follow the breeders guide and let their pup play all day every day with their young Border Collie. Result was OCD - vet said most definitely bone stress induced.

Thanks for your comment. Sure, your right, having a really fat lab and your asking for trouble, but could problems occur within 4 weeks? I should have mentioned no obvious abuse was done with our dog. The kids snuck extra food for one week until I realised what was happening.

Just wondering, for other owners of well bred labradors diagnosed with elbow dysplasia at the 5 month old mark, think that they may have added to the problem by not doing as instructed ie, over exersising, playing, feeding ect?

They say its environmental aswell. Im not so sure on those stats?

Feed back, anyone?