RockDog

Rockdog- welcome to the D O L rollercoaster !

I know what it's like living away from the conveniences of a town/city... it does make things more difficult to access and plan to make use of .

I am so looking forward to an update after you meet with folks in the 'big smoke'.

Rocky is lucky he has an owner who is doing her darndest to ensure he can be happy and safe.

Thanks.

It's frustrating, well actually a downright Pain, when you need something and can only get it in Perth. I try to go there as little as possible. Not because I don't like the city, I love the city. But becaus it's such a looooong drive!

It's funny, on the rare occasion that I find myself in Perth or even Geraldton (large town 180kms away), it takes ages to get used to the fact that some shops/servos are open after 6pm, and there's public transport. Takes a while to get used to traffic lights too! lol

I'm now quiiiietly confident that this problem with Rocky can be helped a lot, and I'm looking forward to getting stuck in to it. I know it's gonna take an awful LOT of patience and understanding and time, but that's a small price to pay for his happiness and ability to enjoy life to the full.

Bless 'is little cotton socks!

I still believe this is a mismatched owner and dog........People with bad backs have to know their limitations. It's about commonsense really but medical practitioners also advise you of your limits.

Yippeee, I smell a law suit coming! :rolleyes: Can I sue my doctor for failing to predict I would sustain a back injury 3 months after purchasing Rocky?

As for worrying about getting a destruction order on the dog if it kills/maims another dog, how about seeing it from the other owner's point of view? You could seriously ruin someone's life by having such an event take place. The agony and distress of both the other dog and owner and other witnesses is not something to take lightly. This world is not all about us.

Oh God, how ridiculous! Is there anything at all, anything I've said, the way I've come accross, that would suggest to you that I am the kind of callous, cold, selfish person who would not see such an incident from the other owner's point of view? Where have I indicated that I would take it lightly? Huh?

When reading that knowing how bad this dog is, the OP is still putting him in situations where he gets the chance to attack other dogs makes me fume. Has even let him off the lead FFS.

Have you any idea at all where the bushland I was referring to actually is?? Nope, didn't think so.

The OP is trying to get some help but should not have put herself (and other people at risk) in this position in the first place.

Ay? I don't follow.

.....poor Rock Dog got a sore brain.

:rolleyes:

Yes. Quite an experience, this has been!

To the OP will be interested to see how you go with your dog, hopefully you will be able to find a behaviourist to suit. We are a bit spoilt those of us who live in metropolitan areas.

It is money well spent though if you can find one to suit.

Good luck with your endeavours, I have a friend who has a dog (not a GSD) with very strong aggression towards fluffies, she has made great strides under a behaviourist here in Sydney and her life and that of her dog is greatly improved from what it was.

Thanks

Yeah, in some ways we're quite disadvantaged living up here. Small supermarket with high prices for one! And of course the price of fuel. I remember when there was an absolute outcry in Perth at the price of fuel reaching $1 a litre. We up here just groaned! :rolleyes:

Some other difficulties are getting to a vet, a specialist, Centrelink, Entertainment/concerts, and of course getting to see a dog trainer or especially a behaviourist.

Just the price we pay for living in a little slice of paradise.

I only know ONE person in Kalbarri who knows a lot about dogs (there are SO many irresponsible dog owners here it's not funny). He used to be a trainer and was head of the GSD state display squad. Trouble is, he gave it all up more than 20 years ago and when he heard me using a clicker with Rocky a couple of months ago he had to ask what on Earth it was! lol

Anyway, he's always incredibly busy so I can't really utilise his knowledge.

I'm confident that I'll get a lot of help from the behaviourist and Honey Gross-Richardson though, so I'm looking forward to next week.

MY HEAD HURTS!!!

OK, the bad news is that I've been advised not to have anything to do with the behaviourist I spoke to this morning and had arranged to see twice while I'm in Perth.

Bugga!

The good news is that I finally found Honey Gross-Richardson's number and had a chat with her for an hour and ten minutes!

She said to come and see her at the GSD homegrounds on the Sunday, and come along to the reactive dog class on the Wednesday, and she also MAY be able to see me if I go to Geraldton the following weekend.

I hold Honey in very high esteem, so I'm really pleased about that

Back to the drawing board with finding a suitable behaviourist though ;)

RockDog - it sounds from your recent posts like you are still taking risks by letting your dog off-lead when you are in 'quiet areas' and you are pretty sure the coast is clear.....

....So often people approach from BEHIND you with another dog. It's just not possible to stop that from happening.

Nah, too scared to let him off leash now. Poor Rocky-Rock-Rock ;)

If I'm going to be playing fetch with him or let him have a dip in the water, I have him on a 20m long line. I put him in a sit, walk to the end of the leash, and throw about 10 metres away from me, so that he at least gets a 30m run, then back to me and start again.

But I see that another poster has quite rightly pointed out the danger of this too!

Oh dear, can't win.

Fetch in the back yard it is, then, lol

....a front-attaching harness might be useful

Yep, have had one on order from UK for a week, they're just waiting for me to pay for it

It's called a "Perfect Fit Harness" and has a front-attaching D ring as well as on the dog's back.

Gentle Leaders can definitely come off and should always be coupled. They do provide good leverage but can also increase frustration, if you feel this may be the case then a front-attaching harness might be useful (I couple these too, using a double-ended leash or coupler attached to a martingale or well fitted flat collar). See what the behaviourist says.

Muzzles can sometimes be necessary but my preference is that you pretend your dog isn't wearing one; i.e you don't do anything you wouldn't do without the muzzle. Potential problems can arise when people try to do things they wouldn't do if the dog was not muzzled, e.g letting their dog greet dogs they aren't sure about because they don't think anything can really go wrong.

Good point about the GL possibly increasing frustration. Though he's worn it on and off all his life, so I'm not super concerned.

Something to think about.

I did have a choke chain lying around for ages, but I think I got rid of it. So I'll use the coupler on the flat collar.

Some good points coming up on this thread, and good advice, here and in PMs, which I'm really grateful for

Kavic, that link just took me to the Black Dog home page, but I think you were referring to a coupler? I have one, so might use that.

I'm not sure whether muzzling will make Rocky worse.

However, if you are going to take him to public places where there is even the slightest chance that he could come across and attack another dog, I think it is only fair to other dog owners to muzzle him. Because, some people have no control over their dogs and will let their smallies run up to him and some people just don't belive you if you tell them he may attack.

do keep in mind that if he attacks a dog of his own size, he may be seriously injured while wearing a muzzle, if the other dog retaliates.

Personally, i think it might be best if you can try to keep him away from other dogs as much as possible.

Good point about the muzzle. In certain areas, outside the local shops for example, a small dog could appear from nowhere.

Definately trying to keep him away from other dogs as much as possible. We try to find quiet spots (or open spots when he's on the 20m line) at certain times of the day, and I always take my son with me to act as 'look out' for other dogs.

ETA: and if you think it at ALL possible that he might be able to get out of the gentle leader, I would also have a back up collar attached. My preference for a back up collar is a check chain that is a little bit bigger than 'ideal' size so you can attach lead to both. Otherwise, I think you can get those attachments that allow you to attach lead to both gentle leader and flat collar.

I'm pretty sure he couldn't get out of the GL.

But if I were to use a back-up collar, couldn't I thread the lead through the D ring on his (sturdy) flat collar? That way If the GL came off or broke, I don't think the whole bunched-up GL would easily get through the D ring.

Not going to comment on the muzzle as I don't know.

But the lead - is it stretchy? I personally don't like stretchy leads as I feel they give me less control as you are less certain what your actual potential reach is.

That's the one.

It's only about 3' long, including handle. It's actually not that stratchy really. if you hold an end in each hand and pull it's quite tough.

A bit like the old "chest expanders" in the 70s but in reverse. If you see what I mean.

(No, I didn't have one, my dad did when he was having a midlife crisis after the divorce! )

OK, tmi.

To the original poster (sorry, I forgot your name) did you end up putting a muzzle on your dog when out walking?

It's Sian. But don't try pronouncing it!

Actually, it's pronounced Shaarn. I'm from Wales, and it's a very common name at home.

No, I don't have a muzzle. The visiting vet has them but he's not coming up here for another two and a half weeks.

Not too keen to get one anyway, as it's been suggested to me this morning (and I've read the same many times) that muzzling him at the moment may actually exasperate the situation by increasing his frustration.

I'm not against it, just want to be careful not to put him in a worse state.

Now before you all start, yes I know that attacking a dog WILL put him in a worse state - as in possibly death row. I'm considering that.

The other night when Rocky wanted to get to my friend's Shih-Tzu across the street from the chip shop, he was on a flat collar (because we'd been in the car and I hadn't intended getting him out) and it was hard to keep him with me when he lunged.

Now, whenever we leave the house for whatever reason, I take the Gentle Leader and a short, strong, "Bungee" lead whith a flat handle. Much more control incase he sees another dog.

Which we try to avoid anyway.

We don't go for 'walks' as such, I drive him to, say, the beach, the other beach, the oval, the tennis courts, up river in the bush etc, and let him off leash there to run around or we have long games of fetch (practicing come, sit, stay, look, give, etc).

So there's another question for you guys to chew on -

What do people think about whether I should muzzle Rocky for now or not?

Given his age and recent history, is it wise to muzzle him and risk making things worse?

I'm leaning against it, going on proffessional advice, but just interested to hear what others think.

Dont think any book will be able to solve your problem. You need to see a professional trainer.

I don't. And I'd be mad to!

I've been looking for a professional behaviourist all along, way before I posted this thread.

I asked in all sorts of places, looked in the phone book, asked on different lists, asked other dog owners I know, and spent hours phoning trainers from Yellow Pages, leaving messages etc. Trying to find a behaviourist has literally consumed the last 5 days of my life, since the attack on Taffy.

The day I started this thread (or the day before), someone from FunctionalRewards emailed me with a few names she'd heard of. I spent ages looking for info on those who had websites, and left messages with 5 of them. One has got back to me so far through email, and one has left a message on my phone this morning.

Yesterday, a friend gave me the number of a Veterinary behaviourist who I spoke to on the phone and is sending me a questionnaire.

Also, a behaviourist in Perth saw my plea on FunctionalRewards and contacted me, offering her services. I finally got to speak to her about an hour ago, and am probably going to use her.

I think I've said before (not sure) that the MAIN reason for posting this thread was to see if anyone had any

1) Names of behaviourists they could recommend.

2) Advice on what I could be doing in the meantime, while I'm waiting to get to Perth.

I have received both, including being told that I should string Rocky up, choke him, and it would WORK.

There is no way I would think that any book would solve my problems with Rocky.

However, there are some excellent books out there which come very higly recommended by well-respected proffessionals, which can help most pet dog owners immensely.

The other day I went slightly mad and ordered about three thousand of them. OK, slight exaggeration, but my bank manager's gonna hate me!

I took Rocky down the beach this evening on a 20m long line.

I called him to me and pulled on his Gentle Leader slightly.

I hope you dont combine those two pieces of equipment together!!!!

Nah, we'd just got out of the car, still in the car park, and I hadn't transferred him onto the long line (on his flat collar) yet.

Good idea for checking though. Thanks.

Do you have any calming exercises you do with him? My little firecracker goes up in arousal and can be hard to bring down again. He's still a bit socially (and emotionally?) immature and seems to benefit greatly from a bit of help every now and then to calm down again. I do a lot of TTouch and massage with him and pair it with a verbal cue "shh". It's interesting to see that sometimes a bit of that goes a looooong way. It's still a work in progress for us, and he doesn't always come down as fast or as far as would be ideal, but I'm impressed with how useful it's been all the same. It took a little while when he was quite young to get him appreciating it enough to sit still for it in the first place, and we did some practice revving him up a little and bringing him down again and clicking for tail down and sleepy eyes and that sort of thing as described in Control Unleashed. I think that helped as well, but not sure to what extent. I'm not sure why, but for my little guy, working on his hindquarters seems to be just the thing for calming him, followed by some long strokes down his back to calm him some more. He often comes back for more of that. My other dog turns to putty in your hands if you massage his chest.

There's also Karen Overall's Protocol for Relaxation, which is a good (though somewhat tedious) exercise for teaching a dog to be calm. It can take a bit of work to condition an excitable dog to calm down on cue, but I think it's something quite useful to spend time on. Maybe that's just me, though. I think that it helps avert the practicing of behaviour seen when a dog is aroused when you don't want that aroused behaviour.

Pretty glad you seem to have your head screwed on! Everyone on the internet is an expert, you know. :D

Thanks corvus.

I've actually ordered the TTouch book by Linda Tellington-Jones, should be here in a week or two.

I don't know much about it at all, but that's good to hear that I may be able to use it in Rocky's aroused states.

Thanks for the idea.

I haven't got Control Unleashed yet either, but plan to when I can find a cheap copy. :-)

Cheers for the vote of confidence. Bit hard when you're new to this and don't know what to believe.

I am totally gobsmacked.

I was aware that of course the majority of society is lucky enough to not know much about mental illness.

But I wasn't aware that there were still people who were willing to post their ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, and total lack of empathy on a public forum.

For everyone to see!!

Unbelievable

C'mon guys, it's the World Wide Web!

Aren't you scared someone you know will accidentally read your posts??

UN-FLAMIN'-BELIEVABLE!!!

I am so, so, sorry to hear about your terrible loss!

I cannot bear to even think about what you must have gone through. How utterly tragic.

Just can't find the words to convey my sincere and heartfelt condolences.

We adore our pets so much, don't we?

My daughter had to have her adored Staffy pts a couple of weeks ago. He was 14 and had had a wonderful life, but Kellie was absolutely devestated.

It's heartbreaking when they leave us, as they all must, but that's the sacrifice we have to make for the years of unconditional love and joy they've given us.

I'm just shocked that this has happened.

I wish you and your family well, and please look after yourself, OK?

Sian.

Based on your GSD knowledge you also know that THIS handler is phyically capable of this manoevre AND that the dog is routinely walked on a suitable collar. For all you ACTUALLY know Malsrock, this dog could be walked on a halti (/ETA: and golly gee Mals, it IS) and the handler might be under 5 feet tall with chronic back pain.

OMG that's spooky!

Not only do I have Rocky on a Gentle Leader, but I'm 5'1", AND I've been off work this whole year with chronic back pain :D

If I was stupid enough to attempt a leash hang, it certainly wouldn't be very effective and I'd prob be in hospital for a week!

In WA i would highly recommend Kathy Koppellis McLeod- she is the best behaviourist in Perth i know of and although she won't use corrections of a physical nature there is no one else i know of that has the experience she does.

Thanks.

I'm hearing Kathy's name crop up a fair bit today.

I have phoned 5 trainers (including Kathy K-P) and a Veterinary Behaviourist. I spoke to the VB, explained a bit, she's sending me a questionnaire and said she can see me when I'm in Perth.

Two trainers have got back to me. One of them is Danielle Brueschke, who coincidentally apprenticed under Kathy K-P.

She says that her and Kathy are "two of the few positive trainers / behaviour consultants who work with aggressive dogs in WA".

So I think I'll end up choosing either Danielle or Kathy, but which one?? Obviously Kathy must be more experienced, so might wait till she gets back to me.

In the meantime, I took Rocky down the beach this evening on a 20m long line. There were not supposed to be other dogs around, or that was the plan anyway!

We got out of the car and I saw a neighbour with her Golden Retriever about 25m away, walking towards us. Then Rocky saw them, just as I was trying to get his attention.

He was aroused, tail up, ears forward, etc.

I called him to me and pulled on his Gentle Leader slightly. He gave a bit of a "Huh" (rather than a "woof") to the dog, and came with me, but still excited and looking behind at the dog. I put him in a sit and c/t for eye contact. Didn't get too much eye contact though, as he was staring at the dog who had, by now, passed us and was walking away.

Close call, cos I don't want him to PRACTICE an aggressive reaction.

Played fetch in and out of the water on the (now deserted) beach, with short breaks for c/t eye contact.

DO NOT listen to internet advice from people who aren't professionals and who have never seen your dog.

Ask for recommendations for someone who has had success dealing with this issue and come up with the money to see them.

Thanks Poods.

I've received two recommendations for a behaviourist (Kathy Kopellis-McLeod) who I'd previously been warned to stay away from. Confusing, but the warning was only from ONE person and I haven't been able to get in touch with the person to ask details of why she told me to avoid Kathy.

There is another lady I'm very interested in seeing (Georgia Karajas), but she hasn't returned my call.

There's also Danielle Brueschke north of the river, who has contacted me via the Functional Rewards forum (run by Grisha Stewart), offering her services. She told me to email her, which I did, but hasn't replied yet.

I've also sent an email to Honey Gross-Richardson, who I met years ago and is very high up in the GSDAWA. Highly respected, I mean.

I'm still trying to get her phone number too, as I'm sure she'd know who to recommend.

So in the meantime he's not getting to go out much. When I do take him out, I get my son to act as "scout", looking for anything that looks remotely like it could be a little dog. And I have him on a 20m long line so that he can at least play a bit of Fetch. We also do that in the back yard, with c/t for eye contact.

Just wish I had some spare cash to help. Can't sell my body, it's well past it's use-by date!

It is a miracle that Spongey is still alive. The GSD is not a suitable dog for your home.

Either your flat mate moves out and your other dog dies or you keep them separate 100% of the time and I doubt those options are feasible.

The GSD probably needs either an extremely experienced owner or has to go now.

Thank you for your input, but I must say I'm very glad you weren't the only one to respond!

And I've already said that Spongey and his owner moved out

I AM keeping Rocky and Taffy separated except for an excercise which has been advised by a respected reactive dog behaviourist in the US (Diane Garrod).

I tether Rocky, have Taffy in a sit-stay, and sit so that Rocky is facing my right, Taffy is facing my left.

I hand feed them alternately, one kibble/treat at a time, clicking Rocky for eye contact with me.

This is one excercise I'm doing while waiting for the chance to go to Perth and see a good behaviourist.

The main point of this thread was to ask people for their insights and help with what else I could be doing in the meantime befor we get to Perth.

But now on second thoughts, I may just give up and get rid of him.

(not really, just being sarcastic).)

I think the OP has already realised where they went wrong. It's helpful to intervene before these situations escalate. If I don't want something to happen I step in to stop it before it does. Rocky gave heaps of warning before he escalated his aggression, but when we are in these situations and watching, we don't always catch on right away that something is changing. I know I don't.

Absolutely. And believe me, I'm kicking myself for it.

At the time, I was pleasantly surprised at Rocky's tolerance. When he started 'standing over' Spongey, I didn't realise it was the start of something that would (and did) escalate. Quite quickly.

Now I have a full-blown serious GSD ggression problem on my hands. NOT what one would want. Especially someone inexperienced and with no trainer/behaviourist within Cooee!

Entirely my fault. (But Damn that Spongey! :D )

you can contact Honey on this email

[email protected]

Thanks for that :-)