Cavalier

Also we all do the best we can when feeding our dogs and I would never bash anyone but feeding becomes such an emotive and overly scrutinised issue with so many of us. I just wish it was as easy for the masses as it is for me.

So true.

I suppose with all the health problems associated with BBs if puppy buyers can afford $3K for a pup they can also afford the vet bills...

There's something about your posts - this is the second one which has made me say "bullshit"

There are a few things that don't quite add up for me, it's just a vibe I'm getting.

23 January 2006

I am a final year vet student and will be a fully registered vet in less that 10 months

25th September 2009

In all my years being a vet (and injecting around 20 dogs a day with dectomax)

7th October 2009

No Im not a repro specialist, but have been a vet for a long time and work in a very busy practice

Three years isn't that long, lovey.

29th September 2009

We see about 5 cases of Parvo a week

31st October 2009

The risk of Parvo infection where I live is HUGE. I personally treat 10-15 cases a week.

Within one month your Parvo cases have jumped from 5 per week, to 10-15 cases per week.

Dont patronise me. Does it really matter who I am???

You guys honestly need to get a life....

Yes within a month our parvo cases did increase from 5 a week (which is fairly normal) to 10-15. It called an outbreak.

Who cares what anyone says on a public forum anyway??? Seriously - forums are for fun chat and sometimes you grab a bit of info. Surely nobody with half a brain would actually take the advice given on this forum and take it as gospel. Most of it is rubbish anyway. No wonder most people come on this forum a few times then leave. Unless you are part of the natural dog, no vaccinations, BARF diet, brigade you are blasted. What a small minded bunch of people you all are. You can all think what you like - Im out...

I understand that Cavalier is "only" using a screen name here, but that is quite a serious allegation to throw around on the basis of such little evidence.

Who knows - maybe Im not a vet, maybe Im an Astronaut? Nobody has to justify themselves to anybody on a public forum, thats half the fun

Anyway - you cannot be charged with impersonating a vet on a public forum. You have to actually advertise you are a vet and diagnose/treat animals conditions to have committed that type of offence.

On the topic of cellulose. Both dogs and humans, when fed a diet high in plant materials, can have bacteria in their large intestines which secrete enzymes which break down cellulose. This is a process which happens over time. The body has an amazing ability to adapt to different diets and extract what nutrients it can out of many sources. Of course the ability of a dog or a human to break down cellulose is nothing compared to that of a ruminant or horse, however it is something that occurs nonetheless.

Please report me then

This topic is just getting silly (and nasty) now.

Im not really interested in everyones insults. I know my dogs are happy and healthy and really thats all that matters to me.

Whoever it was that is emailing Nick Costa....could you please let me know what he says? He was my Professor at Vet School (yes we study nutrition in great depth at vet school - contrary to what many believe). I questioned him on vegetarian diets when at Vet School and he believes dogs can thrive on a vegetarian diet if done correctly.

Well as far as I'm concerned if a vegetarian diet is an optimum diet for a dog it should be perfectly possible to breed and raise all dogs on a diet consisting solely of carbohydrate. You should be able to wean a puppy directly onto it and that puppy should be able to live on that diet for its entire life and successfully produce puppies which will go on to become vegetarians themselves. If it isn't possible to do this then obviously a vegetarian diet isn't a suitable diet for dogs.

I actually hope it is possible because it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than the diet my dogs are getting at the moment

What I wrote about the dogs digestive system is correct. My dog ate some cat faeces the other week - she ended up in hospital for 3 days on a drip with bloody diarrhoea.

A vegetarian diet does not just consist of carbohydrate - now you are showing your lack of nutritional knowledge ;)

Please explain to be the difference between a dogs GI tract and a humans. They are actually almost identical

Yes they are almost identical when compared with a herbivore, but humans are omniverous whereas a dog is first and foremost a carnivore. Although able to deal with small amounts of carbohydrate a dog's GI tract is designed to process flesh and bones. Starting from the head a dog has a long protruding jaw and large canines both of which are designed to grab and hold its prey, the jaw only moves up and down not side to side so dogs are unable to grind foods such as cereal grains or corn. The molars in a dog are used to crack and pulverise bone. Unlike us a dog's saliva contains no enzymes to break down starch, a dog's saliva acts solely as a lubricant to allow it to bolt down its food in large pieces as quickly as possible. The dog's stomach is relatively small because a carnivore eats a nutrient rich diet so only small amounts are required at each meal and their stomach acid is approximately three times stronger than hours having a PH of 1/2 compared to a human's 4/5 thus allowing the dog to to break down bone. The very strong acid also kills most bacteria. Their gut is comparatively much shorter than ours and food passes through much more quickly, this is another safeguard against bacterial infection. However the shorter gut also means that vegetable matter isn't well processed which is why cheap dry foods with lots of cereal fillers can cause digestive disturbances, humans with their much longer gut process carbohydrates much more efficiently.

For those of you who consider a vegetarian diet completely suitable for a dog tell me have any of you ever bred a litter from two medium sized vegetarian dogs, weaned the puppies straight onto a vegetarian diet and successfully raised them to adulthood?

Dogs saliva does contain amylase. The dogs intestine also contains enzymes which break down cellulose.

Both the human and dog stomach has an average pH of 2.

Both the human and dog stomach is relatively small.

Biologically, the dog is an omnivore. The dog has NO physiological obligate requirement for meat (unlike the cat). Every nutrient that dogs need can be obtained from plant sources, or they synthesise themselves.

I have a friend who has raised his newfoundland on a vegan diet (he SLOWLY made the transistion when the dog was young) & i would say he is happy & healthy. He uses a combination of Veganpet kibble & home prepared vegies. If someone is willing to put in the effort & money to do it properly then i believe a dog can thrive on this diet. Obviously doing it incorrectly or being lazy about it would be terrible for the dog.

Bringing the word "natural" into the discussion seems like a bit of a joke to me. In my opinion feeding a dog a well balanced vegan/vegetarian diet monitored by a human is no more or less "natural" then feeding a dog some tinned scraps from the abbatoir floor that you bought from the supermarket.

I agree. Also interested to hear he successfully raised a large breed dog on the diet. Thanks for the info.

There are just as many synthetic additives in meat based dog kibble. So Im not sure this argument has much merit.

Some people believe unless you are feeding a BARF or Prey Model diet you are being cruel to your dog. Its a very narrow minded viewpoint. There are many different ways of raising dogs. Just because someone does something diferent doesnt mean it is cruel.

http://veganpet.com.au/articles/

Thats the website the reason I didn't like it is they also sell it for cats and cats can't be vegetarian

Thanks for the link..

I find that website completely irresponsible..

It is also possible to raise a meat-eating animal such as a cat or dog on a vegan diet and thus reduce the overall amount of animal suffering and death in the world by not supporting the exploitative industries of fishing and meat-farming.

...what about the suffering of the poor cats who are raised on inappropriate vegan diets who don't get the taurine they need? A cat who doesn't get taurine will die.

That website does not stress the importance of supplementing cats with taurine, IMO.

You obviously didnt read the website very well. There is a huge section in there about taurine and how the food is supplemented with taurine. This food meets the AFFCO requirements.

http://veganpet.com.au/articles/?page_id=9

http://veganpet.com.au/articles/

Thats the website the reason I didn't like it is they also sell it for cats and cats can't be vegetarian

according to the site they can provided they are fed their brand of food which has all the suppliments in it. Is that not the same as selling dog food with suppliments in it? Obviously the levels are different but doesn't it equate to the same thing - animal that needs meat to whatever degree being fed a meat free alternative?

I know this is a hard topic so please understand my questions come from genuine interest and I just want to understand your views :D

Yes can can be vegetarian too - if done properly. My cats eat it The Veganpet food contains taurine produced by bacteria.

I'm a vegetarian and I strongly disagree with the concept of feeding a dog a vegetarian diet, I also disagree with the idea that dogs are omnivores. Humans are omnivores and a dog's GI tract has no similarity to that of a human, their teeth, the composition of their saliva, the strength of their stomach acid and the length of the tract itself are completely different, a dog's GI tract is quite obviously designed to deal with flesh, bones and other foods derived from animals. Vegetable protein is also inferior to meat protein and harder to assimilate, to get enough protein you have to eat large amounts of fibre and a dog's gut is very limited in its ability to break down and process carbohydrates. Dogs may be able to survive on a vegetarian diet, but whether they will actually thrive and be able to successfully reproduce is another matter.

As a breeder I would never sell a puppy to anyone who wanted to feed a vegetarian diet because I truly believe that it's not in the best interests of the dog. As others have said if you don't want to feed meat get a pet that's a natural vegetarian, don't get a dog.

Please explain to be the difference between a dogs GI tract and a humans. They are actually almost identical :D

Bum, I was really interested in learning someting about it, there were some other posters who said they fed vego and that it was possible for a vego diet to be fine for dogs - can those people share some info?

ETA - Cavalier - you mentioned feeding you cavs vego but not your large breed puppy, I'm kind of confused as to what further research you would need to do other than what levels are right for a large breed pup. Presumably to have researched feeding the cavs you know already what vego food replace what ellements of meat/bones? Can you tell me more about this?

Im feeding my kids Veganpet kibble. Google it and it will come up. Has all the nutritional info on the website, and a full analysis done by the Professor of Applied Nutrition at Murdoch University. My dogs preferentially eat the Veganpet over their old meat based kibble.

People have a very closed mind when it comes to vegetarianism, Ive heard all the insults before. It becomes boring.

We have thought very hard about our belief systems, and really it comes down to what you can live with and what lets you sleep at night.

I know my dogs are healthy, happy, content and fulfilled and I am not contributing to the slaughter of millions of animals to get there.

Im going to go against the grain here.... *Prepares to be blasted*

I have one dog who is 100% vegetarian, and 3 that are weaning their way onto it.

Their diet consist of a balanced vegetarian dry food, vegetables, eggs, lentils and home made treats. Recently introduced a vegetarian dog bone and vegetarian pigs ears.

She has been on this diet now for about 3 years. I am a vegetarian and originally I thought of putting her on the diet to combat her allergies - and it worked wonders. It sits well with her (she loves her vege protein balls!) and fits in with my beliefs. She is as healthy as she has ever been (I do yearly blood tests on my dogs to prove it), and do not feel I have in any way compromised my dogs health.

Prior to starting this diet, in the 20 years or so I have had dogs, I have NEVER fed them bones or raw meat. Simply because I find it repulsive (especially getting meat juice in the beautiful Cavalier ears...).

However - my pup is not on a vegetarian diet. I dont feel I have the time (or inclination) to balance a vegetarian diet suitable for a large breed puppy (although I am sure it can be done with a lot of thought). He will also never receive bones or meat....

Thanks for the info and feedback I also havent yet tried SL for incontinence, only Propalin. Might try next time.

Cavalier,

Would the majority of the dogs vaccinated be camp dogs ?.

Absolutely not. They are the ones running around spreading parvo, distemper and hepatitis around the town

Ive been in this town 18 months and Ive seen 3 cases of hepatitis (CAV), 5 cases of distemper and 10 cases of parvo per week on average. Its ridiculous ;)

Just wondered if there was a pro gramme running to vaccinate the camp dogs. (pretty difficult to do)

As camp dogs are biggest problems in some areas. Yes, we know camp dogs spread every thing.

We have been lobbying the council since we got here to do something. The neighbouring town (400kms away) has a programme where the vets go around injecting the dogs with covinan to sterilise them for 3 months to try and stop them breeding. Doesnt stop the disease problem though And the diseases arent isolated to dogs - hookworm, roundworm and tapeworm infestations in the children is out of control

Cavalier,

Would the majority of the dogs vaccinated be camp dogs ?.

Absolutely not. They are the ones running around spreading parvo, distemper and hepatitis around the town

Ive been in this town 18 months and Ive seen 3 cases of hepatitis (CAV), 5 cases of distemper and 10 cases of parvo per week on average. Its ridiculous

Wow Cavalier, that is an insane amount of dogs to vaccinate weekly. Where do all these dogs come from? And being in a remote area, do you also then have to travel to properties for large animal consults?

I just can't imagine how you could continuously be jabbing that many dogs per week, and still have the same about to do the following week!

We live in a transient mining town, so not all the dogs live here permanently. Some do FIFO with their owners, some just live up here for 6 months of the year. We have a 20000 permenant population and about the same transient. Almos everyone has a dog (or three :p )

As Jed mentioned there is clear correlation in cats between vaccinations and sarcomas. The two vaccines most likely to cause the problem have been found to be FeLV and rabies. THe problem is so well recognised that in the US these vaccines are given in the hind limbs as distally as possible so the limb can be amputated when a sarcoma forms. Left hind for the FeLV vaccine and right hind for the rabies vaccine.

As someone with cats I do not think loping off a leg is a great response to vaccine induce sarcomas.

It was also raised by the pathologist that was at the Jean Dodds lecture in Sydney last year that he has seen vaccine induced sarcomas here from C3 injections. So I would certainly not say that there is no research on vaccines causing cancers there is research available just do a google search on vaccine site sarcomas a huge amount of information come up.

I am one of many that think we over vaccinate our animals and we need to better manage what we do. I still believe in vaccinations but I believe we should be giving the minimum number possible not endlessly jabbing our animals because it is safe as that has clear proven not to be the case.

Jo

Yes the link between sarcomas and the FeLV, FIV and rabies vac has been well documented. I saw a case myself a few months back. However Ive seen many many more cases of FeLV and FIV than sarcomas, and Im sure most vets would have a similar experience...

The difference being - these are killed vaccines containing an adjuvant. Killed vaccines are much more likely to cause side effects because of the materials put in to enhance the immune response. This is why we dont see the same sarcomas in dogs - because we use MLV vaccines without adjuvant.

I cope by spending time on DOL :p

If I worked 80 hours per week and had 5 dogs of my own, I wouldn't have TIME for DOL !!! (Oooh scarey thought that, huh? )

I used to work those hours, so I know what sort of pressure that represents. And I didn't have 5 dogs at the time!!

Some sucker has to do it....

You don't like to?

LOL tounge in cheek comment Erny

I love my job, its my absolute passion and enjoy every moment....and love getting up at 5am to feed the horses.....did I mention I have 3 horses as well???....and 2 cats and a chicken!!!

All my dogs (had 17 in total) ...

My !! Are you super woman or something Cav? Vaccinating 200 dogs per week between 2 people (which in itself would be a full time job by "full time" definition anyway, without anything outside of vaccination needles) and working 80 hours per week, I don't know how you would have time for 1 dog let alone a total of 17 (which I presume means multiple dog household). That's a lot of dogs, a lot of pressure on you (as I presume you do surgeries on top of spending a full day vaccinating). Don't know how you cope .

I dont have 17 now!!! I just mean 17 throughout my life. Sorry should have clarified....I only have 5 at the mo.... I cope by spending time on DOL

200 a week is very accurate - we are a very very busy clinic, both us vets work 80 hours a week

I work in a busy clinic also, we have 6 vets (working 60-hour weeks) and I don't think even we would be doing 200 vaccinations per week.

I calculated it by how many consults a week we do (around 300) and about 2/3 of these are vaccines. Of course some weeks are busier and some are quieter. Ive worked in a lot of clinics - and how busy this clinic is would just blow your mind. If it was in the city it would easily be a 6-7 vet practice (working normal hours of course!).

Some sucker has to do it....

Sorry Cavalier - I meant that I've never had any of the other problems, ie- cancers, allergies, metbolic, other side effects etc. Did have the one case of parvo when it was rife in our area. At the time I had a number of dogs and pups and the Gordon was the only one who got it so I guess her immune system was down as she had been immunised although she then lived to about 12 years without any other problems.

I can believe the dog numbers in some of the indigenous communities, seen quite a few in the NT. You're doing a great job to get so many immunised

I get you now

All my dogs (had 17 in total) until recently have been vaccinated yearly and had the proheart injection. The only cancer I can think of was in my entire Cav bitch who got an aggressive mammary tumour at age 12. This type of cancer has been scientifically proven to be associated with the prescence of oestrogen in unsterilsed bitches :p Everyone else has been happy as Larry

Cavalier, 30,000 dogs in your area, the mind boggles Guess your lucky that you've never had a full immunised adult with parvo - I had an 19 month old Gordon Setter get it even though she'd been vacinated as a pup and boostered at 14 months. Fortunately due to a marvellous Vet, she survived. Friend's Shiba died from parvo at 2.5yrs and he was vacinated as a pup, booster at approx 13 months and again 12 months later. Haven't heard of distemper for many years.

May I ask approx. what region you are in?

eta - I'm another who only does the puppy vacs, then boosts at 14 months. Guess I'm lucky, in 50 years never had a dog with any problems.

Im confused - you said you had a dog get parvo after being vaccinated using your regime, then the next paragraph said in 50 years you have never had any problems...???

Cavalier, 30,000 dogs in your area, the mind boggles Guess your lucky that you've never had a full immunised adult with parvo - I had an 19 month old Gordon Setter get it even though she'd been vacinated as a pup and boostered at 14 months. Fortunately due to a marvellous Vet, she survived. Friend's Shiba died from parvo at 2.5yrs and he was vacinated as a pup, booster at approx 13 months and again 12 months later. Haven't heard of distemper for many years.

May I ask approx. what region you are in?

eta - I'm another who only does the puppy vacs, then boosts at 14 months. Guess I'm lucky, in 50 years never had a dog with any problems.

We are in a remote region of WA with a large number of indigenous communities. This is where the dog population comes from. Its not uncommon to have up to 20 dogs per household in these communities.

whippets - Im not publishing scientific papers and doing seminars to large number of dog breeder on my experience. When you go public you really need to have some evidence.

From what Star has said - It looks like Jean Dodds is not claiming what some people on here are claiming she claims (if that makes sense ) I think people are greatly misinterpreting the message that Jean Dodds is trying to put forward.

As a scientist - I have every right to question other scientists claims. Just as they have the right to question mine - if I ever make any!

If you read through my previous posts, Im not denying or claiming that vaccines cause any disease. I have just said in my personal experience from vaccinating a very large number of dogs, I have NEVER seen any of these side effects that breeders on here are claiming are extremely common.

This argument is about the claim everyone is making about the "fact" that vaccines cause every form of cancer imaginable, metabolic disease, endocrine diseases..... there is no evidence - people keep saying there is - if there is evidence please provide us with a link - not a link about Jean Dodds opinion, but a real scientific study that shows a direct link between these diseases and vaccination.

I have a PhD in biophysics and have worked in a lot of biochemistry and molecular biology labs in US and Australia. The results/scientific data that you want would be very hard to obtain. They would cost a lot of money and time (because you would have to monitor animals throughout their lives as you are looking at long time effects). The drug companies are not going to run these experiments because it could potentially undermine their product. Public institutions would have very hard time obtaining grants for these studies as it would be very very costly and time consuming.

I am not saying that there is or there isn't a correlation for over-vaccination and cancer. I am saying that there are reasons why the scientific data is lacking and will be lacking for a very long time. Now if you want to stick to the position that because there is no scientific data it means the claims are not true, that's fine. But you need to be aware why there is no scientific data on the subject.

Sorry, I am a scientist and am always skeptical about any scientific evidence and also about the lack of thereof.

I completely understand this Laffi. However a few people in this thread are claiming the evidence is out there....just nobody can provide us with it.... makes me very skeptical too

I have a PhD in biophysics and have worked in a lot of biochemistry and molecular biology labs in US and Australia. The results/scientific data that you want would be very hard to obtain. They would cost a lot of money and time (because you would have to monitor animals throughout their lives as you are looking at long time effects). The drug companies are not going to run these experiments because it could potentially undermine their product. Public institutions would have very hard time obtaining grants for these studies as it would be very very costly and time consuming.

I would be inclined to agree with you, Laffi.

And it is my albeit strong opinion that whilst we don't have the firm studies to rely on and therefore don't know the potential indirect links to other diseases that continual vaccination (when it may not be necessary) there may be, there is very sound reason to be very cautious about re-vaccinations and their frequencies.

I have calculated that we vaccinate approximately 10 000 dogs per year.

That certainly sounds a lot, Cavalier. Works out at just under 200 per week. You'd think it would get to a stage where the vaccinated dog population in your area would become satiated.

Are you seeing a reduction in the core diseases for which you are vaccinating in your area?

Do you see many of the vaccinated dogs succumb to the diseases for which they have been vaccinated?

200 a week is very accurate - we are a very very busy clinic, both us vets work 80 hours a week

Reduction in core diseases - in general no. Even though we vaccinate 10000 dogs a year, there is still probably double that amount unvaccinated wandering around the streets spreading parvo and distemper.

Vaccinated dogs succumbing to disease - only pups before they have finished their full course (3x vaccines). Adult dogs who have been annually vaccinated - never.