Guil

Got only the image export clean - that'll do. You will find the commands to navigate the work at your leisure within the window - enjoy! < Preview Origins of ACD 6.0 >

Getting close to happiness - will post latest draft later

Forge em up!

Thanks for the detailed information. The breed chart I shared is a prototype, made after confirming that my own hound is a true cattle dog. I was trying to understand why so many people keep asking if he’s crossed with a Staffy. Posting it here on Dogz Online is deliberate. I believe it’s a topic that should be debated first within Australia, where the breed was born, before refining it for a public, yet autorised, Wiki entry. I understand that ACD is just the one breed according to DA (ANKC), and didn't say CDoA is a recognised breed my any mean. There are at least 2 levels of understanding to a reader on Wikipedia, the one that is official, reconised by litterate, and the one that is simply those who tryes to get a response the the "what's in it", being the broader audience. I do see 2 different types of muts under this appelation: 1 - The one made in Australia to work here under our unique weather, terrain etc, that was brought by Tim Hall in NSW (Dingo, Old English Collie & Northemberland Drover's) and George Eliot in QLD in the 19th centrury (Dingo & Old Engish Collie), that I insist, on my propriety for now, to be called CDoA. 2 - The other one that emerged in early 20st century, Bugust brothers added Dalmatian and then Kelpie, which got around at the time when export was a thing, yanks loved em and also Europeans later. Very logical to have the region's name of where it's from at the top is the animal to be popular oversees. This is the gap I'd be pointing at sinec you asked! This is only how I see it as a sensible person towards my environement. I have difficulties with how the selection is made and believe it would be of interest not only for people who wonder, but also perhaps for the ANKC to consider, as I believe we indeed have 2 separate specimens out there (refer to ACD/CDoA index on my chart). According to my personal approach, the one the was first first noticed and at many other occasions were Bagust types, when I moved to Sydney in 2003. They were all part of an urban setting. That is the one I was told to be ACD. Many years later as I was running my trade down in Victoria, I purchased this specimen, the breeder called ACD, which grew strong with a short snout, a box head, broad shoulders and a pretty thick double coat, the kind that it takes him a while to feel uncomfortable under the rain. Later on, as I moved to Canberra, came through some interesting information as it seemed he was indeed a purebred, however, not the kind that I knew from earlier. To reassure myself, I looked up the winners or ACD competitions and found that the breeder I got my hound from was 100% correct saying his father was a winner in competitions. Those winners looked exactly like my boy, and this is the time when I started digging in. I updated myself with the origins, Hall's heeler in the 19th century, Bentley who from just the one stud was able to select specimens that were at his standard to come up with what I called CDoA as it differs quite a bit from the more modern one who was conceived by the Bagust bros (per Kaleski’s account, this claim stems directly from his writings rather than my own inference) in Sydney in the early 20th century, that, according to Kaleski's book, were crosses with no one but 2 other slimmer breeds such as Dalmatians and the Kelpie. To us, as far as it goes, and I am neither a breeder or an academic, just a tradie, ACD (that became popular for exportation to Europe but mainly the US) are similar however different to the one I understood academics (are you?) call the ACD. Different to a point that, if we are in public, we have to spend time explaining the difference between a Bagust and a Bentley, and I understand why people are that curious, because they are confused. This particular specimen was deemed to suit the illustration of my research as it clearly displayed signs that would make it a fit for a post Bagust. To clarify the comparison between the Bentley and Bagust lines that the Bagust line does have a slimmer jawline than the original from Bentley. This description fits the comparaison, whilst there'd be interest in correcting my wording, I'm open to that as I am not a specialist, just a tradie, just pick the ones I believed to fit only to my liking, so yes definitely let me know which terms to fit best fit describing the physical trains in the scope of comparing those 2 categories that was decided to put through this breed chart, in the event you'd be an authority as it may sound that way? My apologies for that, however, this specimen is the one that is at the top of the ASTCD page on Wikipedia, however, can you tell that it is a post Bagust? I can, without a doubt. Bentley + Dalmatian + Kelpie. Not direct descent from the one I have described further down the diagram. Edit 16/10/2025 After an extension of my research, the following was found on a paper writtend by Bert Howard: "Research indicates that although the “Northumberland Drovers Dogs” were generally black and white, they were sometimes of blue marbled or mottled colours (commonly called “Blue Merle”). To save any confusion with the numerous other droving type dogs then in Britain (including other “Curs”, and for ease of identification), I shall call the dogs we are concerned with the “Northumberland Blue Merle Drovers Dogs”. In this context, the words “Blue Merle” are descriptive of coat colour only." and further up, this is about T.Hall: "He reasoned that he should combine the qualities of the Dingo with, those of the “Northumberland Blue Merle Drover’s Dog”. With this in mind he captured a few pairs of Dingoes and kept them in specially built kennels on “Dartbrook”. Over time they adapted to living in captivity and began to breed. While this was taking place, Thomas imported a pair of “Northumberland Blue Merle Drover’s Dogs” from family farms in Northumberland and allowed them to breed in separate kennels on “Dartbrook”. From progeny of the Dingoes and imported dogs, Thomas began selective cross breeding around 1832." This means to us that no older english collie was used at all in the upcoming of the Hall's version of our cattle dog. It is therefore wise to consider that the similar breed, brought in by G.Eliot, thus prior to c. 1870, "Queensland Heeler" was actually a mix of old english collie, where Timmims hasn't been successful with "Back Bobtail" (Smithfied, AKA old English collie) that, later on, were informally crossed by cattle stations from 1880 as another reasearch says the studs had "native herding instincts. Chart updated accordingly, thanks for having lead us to further research on this point. I'm unsure where I wrote *recessive genes* as I was unable to find it in my work, meaning the link I shared, even though that term indeed popped into my tradie's mid for a minute but decided not to use it without any advice coming from a genetic literate person. However, I struggle to find any difference between an ACD, a "CDoA" (my trem) and an STCD as the cattle dog indeed carries that bobtail gene, and every now and then, you get one born with it, hence the struggle. I do not own a STCD and my plan wasn't to clarify anything about this official breed, still cannot find what differences are, and happy to receive any clarification. Meanwhile the point I'm attempting to make here is that the difference would actually be between Bentley's and Bagust's lineages, which gets a bob tail popping up every now and then. And when you look at the STCD specimens either out at the park or on infor pages they all look just like a Bagust. Note the picture I found at the National Library in Canberra? To us that's definitely the original. Well, there you go...they knew better! I can't really interfere within academical politics, however this is of some interest as it shows confusion started at an early stage. Seems like more early confusions. Why peck off that poor stumpy tail when even though in 1948, we were basically 48 years after the Bagust type (5 breeds) and the older Bentley's (only 3). To us this is where they perhaps could have done something about, as no one in the world would come out of the woodworks disputing what type of breed your dog is if it just has a short tail. Thanks for putting through this information, it is of interest, however, the work I'm doing is supposed to be clinical and unbiased. This means, no politics, just the breed lines, that's what people are after in the end I do believe. Is the information in Kaleski's book? Or elsewhere? Can you let us know? This could make a difference in my work. Well, isn't it what Hall did with his heelers? In my sources it clearly says that he would not sell them either. He was keeping them only to distribute through his family's stockmen and various stations he owned? Here again, not in scope of what I'm attempting to do. In all courtesy, I must keep my head away from ego wars and other types of noise. Thank you for the reference, I have put it down to my list of readings, however, I hear this is a 2022 release and haven't heard any differentiation between Bagust's and the original Bentley's in your reply, any reason for that? Is the author to further inform us that are not between long tailed short tailed nas this isn't what I'm being put through by passersby in general, hence may not help us create a smoother foot travelling for future generations. Questions to dog specialists (strictly in scope of the candid work I'm conducting, this means no bias of any kind, references would be accepted if clinical): 1. What are, to date, the differences deemed to show clear differences towards phenotype and behaviour between those 2 breeds, apart from tail size or coat patterns? To us (people) so far: Same breed To administration: 2 breeds 2. How do you guys view that main difference in the 2 genotypes my breed chart is outlining regarding ACD (Bentley - 3 stems / Bagust - 5 stems) To us (people) so far: 2 breeds, one rare (Bentley's) To administration: Same breed I'm sure we can agree somewhere, now, is the academy open to advice from some tradie that's not even a breeder, I don't know. Meanwhile, I must take your attention to the reaction my work received from someone I undertood to be a breeder, right here, on this page further above. This breed chart seems to have at least made one person happy so far (it was just the first draft, no pictures, missing a lot of information): By @EastonDean "This ACD breed chart project is a fantastic initiative! Mapping out characteristics and lineage not only helps breeders and owners understand genetic traits but also preserves valuable breed history. It reminds me of the work done on hyperhistory.org, where timelines and interconnected data help visualize complex historical developments. Just like with dog breeds, understanding patterns over time leads to better decisions and deeper appreciation. Looking forward to seeing how the chart evolvesm, it could be a great resource for the community!" Questions to @ell&diesel 1. Are you satisfied with my replies to your first paragraph? 2. Can you define how merle is to absolutely be removed from my definition since it can be found online? Is it a genetic incongruity I committed by copying incorrect information? 3. Your reply seemed to be outlining that you'd be pretty close to the work Iris Hale has done with the ASTCD and heavy critiques about her counterproductivity. How, to you, did she manage to get the breed to go extinct like in the 1960s when information from reputable sources revealed that the stumpy tail had disappeared in the 40s? Mistakes? Deliberate? 4. What is your stance about what I'm bringing forward on the diagram, strictly according to ACD? Bagust vs Bentley? Anything from the book you advised to show that I'm mistaken? For your reference, have you read Australian Barkers and Biters by Kaleski? (I haven't yet but planning on it) I believe there to be information about what type of dog was used as a stem before they added Dalmatian and Kelpie or would there not be any? I believe there would. I invite you to take a look at that American forum, https://www.reddit.com/r/AustralianCattleDog/ browse through, and tell me if you still cannot see my point in differentiating ACD and CDoA or am I going bonkers? I mean all my mates agree with us, though logical reasoning, they aren't academics, they don't know anything about politics and don't compete with their hounds but those guys are the 99.9999999% readers on wikipedia and they want the information to be clarified according to this. Will update my chart shortly once I have verified the information you have provided and will post the revision here.

Yeah nah mate no issues there - there've been more changes here check it out

Here is the latest update, it's pretty close now. That's the actual chart link so you can zoom it in as much as needed Take me to the chart now !

Hi, TD;LR: Need help to complete the puzzle leading to a complete breed chart that lead to modern Australian Cattle Dog, to eventually post it on Wikipedia. I have a work dog with me that seem to be what people call the "old" type of Australian Cattle Dog. Broad head and body, stronger than "modern" ACD. It seems that this particular breed stock to be closer to Hall's but still, since his strong complexion, I believe something else got in the mix. Bull Terrier? That's likely, however, he does not lock his jaw and just nips perfect. Seems like his type was bread on top of Hall's (1832) in order to achieve a Drover that can get kicked by a bull and just keep working. (Seen him getting hit by a car pretty hard on several occasions but he stood there, unharmed)… I started working on this chart on my spar time and if anyone can help me complete it, I would really appreciate. Cheers! Guil & Bender