Guil

Just to reopen this on something practical that can actually be done. If the goal is to gradually re expose farmers to the fact that Australia has its own purpose built cattle dog, then demonstrating capability publicly seems more effective than arguing theory. Border Collies clearly have their place, but trials are one of the few spaces where different working styles can be observed side by side. I have been considering entering cattle herding trials at rural shows during breaks. Not as a novelty, but as a way to demonstrate what an original type Cattle Dog is capable of when allowed to work with initiative rather than constant direction. If people are ever going to take the offspring of such dogs seriously as future workers, this seems like one of the few visible pathways. I have watched a number of cattle trial runs and noticed that handlers speak very little. My dog works confidently and independently but he does respond to verbal input, such as coaching while working. I am unsure whether that would be penalised under trial rules or simply seen as a different handling style. Based on the working style shown in the video I posted earlier, would this be considered a valid or interesting approach in cattle trials, or are the courses designed in a way that favours a more guided, pattern based style of work?

To clarify what I meant without it sounding like a call for anyone to go educate farmers. Cattle Dogs and Border Collies tend to change stock behaviour in different ways. Border Collies apply pressure through eye posture and presence which suits situations where cattle are already responsive. They are highly sensitive workers and generally avoid physical confrontation because they were not bred to absorb or cope with being kicked. Cattle Dogs were bred for the opposite conditions. They work closer apply pressure through proximity and have the physical and mental resilience to cope with being assailed when necessary. Bentley type dogs in particular were selected for nerve toughness and the ability to take a hit and continue working without escalating stock. When a Cattle Dog is pushed too hard, worked too close or micromanaged cattle often show more stress and that gets blamed on the dog rather than the fit between dog handling style and job. The same dog worked calmly and allowed to make decisions produces a very different outcome. So this is not about one breed being better than another. It is about matching the dog the handling style and the job so the strengths of each can be used properly.

I understand the information coming from you was that the ACD is too full on, can harass cattle and that there could be issues with their training or handling from a modern farmer is this correct? Let me break this down, one qualification at a time with the outcome on the same line for easy understanding. High energy: Required Strong herding instinct: Required Improper training: Warranty issue towards trainer? Improperly managed: Owner issue The old-style ACD was bred for quiet, controlled cattle work and that’s why they put the Dingo in. A good heeler only bites as the final word, not the first. The issue today isn’t the breed changing I believe it to actually be the handling culture. ACDs need clear boundaries to stay calm and precise. When people avoid giving firm correction, the dog ends up making its own decisions, and that’s where trouble starts. Heelers haven’t become rough workers, the expectations and training style have. In the video I've sent, did you see any signs of harassment like the ones we can see here (handling issue): language warning on the breeder's comment, not to required to hear it Stressed handler > stressed dog > stressed cattle. This chain reaction is well documented in livestock behaviour research, including CSIRO and UQ work such as the McGreevy and Starling study (https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/7/12/102). Calm handlers create calm dogs and calm dogs create calm cattle. High arousal anywhere in the line makes stock harder to move. I also reckon that if a dog is constantly worried about being kicked, that becomes ongoing stress in itself. Breeds that rely heavily on eye, like the Border Collie, can be more sensitive to sudden pressure or impact. They are brilliant workers but they do not take a heavy knock the same way a heeler will. Heelers were bred to handle knocks, shoves and the odd kick and keep working. That is part of why the early breeders used the dingo type. Quiet workers with resilience who do not lose their head when the stock get lively. Cattle stress affects meat quality. MLA’s dark cutting research shows that clearly. Calm stock produce better beef. So understanding how handler behaviour and dog behaviour feed into that chain is not a small thing at all. You tell em yeah?

I ain't expecting to get work though HR - in short, we're after those who don't sell to wollies or maccas

One more post here as the preview didn't came through yesterday. Note: All surrounding individuals joined up as well. Pay attention to his body language, when he's implying "wait a sec", and comes back to us shortly leaving space for that one on the right handside, then returns to work once it's at a safe distance from its mates?

Here is a video of my bluey moving cows out of the way in state forest Qld, let me know what in his method could be flagged by a professional Aussie farmer? It's hard for us to get work like at all. Cattle dogs seem to have a bad reputation for some reasons I'm unaware. Note: All surrounding individuals joined up as well. Pay attention to his body language, when he's implying "wait a sec", and comes back to us shortly leaving space for that one on the right handside, then returns to work once it's at a safe distance from its mates? You guys reckon Bored Collies help make better steaks? How can I frame a letter to a farmer to explain that my handling is enough? Thanks.

Got better to do than feeding trolls indeed crackerooni

I managed to catch him herding, please let us know what wrong with his type of approach I would be more than happy to receive any critique, not stalking, just circling and making them run the way we want. Adaboy! https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IWe8V9Y5cQw

ah hah... I thought someone was bringing insight about the ACD breed chart I was putting together, and actually, O surprise, a personal attack. Look sweetie: a) I cannot help you if you are insecure and b) your comment is completely off topic and had to report it up And so you know, I didn’t ask for explanations about this incident, nor do I owe any, as you may not know, ACDs don't roam, they follow instructions. Let us know whilst there would be further questions that are related to this conversation.

That's basically what I've been doing throughout the last year since I found out that my bluey ain't crossed with a staffy, thus the investment was a full blown bargain. If you're interested to see the work I've done with not just trove articles but other reputable sources, there is another post I've started called ACD Breed Chart and yes you can check the new history part in the ACD page on Wikipedia, I published it up yesterday, in the continuity of revision of the Kelpie article I did too. In there, they were saying that it didn't have any Dingo in it because of a genetic study. But thing is, that scholar lady clearly said on the TV news not to use her study to out rule history. And yes I cannot agree more about what it says in that article you've put through - doesn't matter what breed they are, and yes a bull dog can make sense but thing is, a Bentley ACD (I prefer just cattle dog), is basically been bred for that. Thanks for sharing.

Woah big one here. That's exactly what we get here this season. I was not expecting it. My bluey works quietly, he would step back to start with if an individual would get "chargy" at him on approach however, would calmly get back to work, circle them around till they go in the correct direction. I'd go "yeah, that'll do mate" and he would come back to us until he would reckon they'd need more stimulation. He can faint a nip and stock animals know what he would be doing, so no need taking the risk as the individual would find it's place in the mob fast anyhow. But yes, I get a lot of reluctance from farmers when they know I have a cattle dog, they kina look at us sideways and decline my offer. Thing is, I'm sick of travelling with this hound and all he wants is to work cattle professionally, he can't bare it to see those invaders that conducts psychological warfare, bluff, as they couldn't bare a kick. I've seen my boy getting kicked in the head by a bull once, he just kept going at him till it shooed of with the females. Yeah bulls, they get gardy too. With sheep, I find him a bit rough but here again, we'd spend more time working with'em, he'll get it - 100%. I have read that BCs are a lot more friendly by default than ACDs and it's very true, I love them dogos. However, people today don't understand that an ACD defends a perimeter around they owner, and will growl at anyone entering the perimeter within a range of circumstances (my mother would get that too), but thing is, that's who they are, that's Australia, we're down under aye! Like I say to everyone that take this personally, "don't worry about this shithead, just come give him a pat", always works, they smile and walk away happy with a story at hand. People always say to us when we're in public: I can't believe how well trained your dog is. I often reply "Thanks... Actually, he hasn't been trained at all in any way. What you see here is the result of correct handling." -> And this is what I believe farmers in the last 50 years never got right, at least the ones you've witnessed using BCs, or just backyard breeding with best working stud, no matter what genes it's got. Ain't saying that the ACD are better, however think about that one: Would you prefer eating beef from an individual that was worked by an ACD - just persuasion, minimal force, and its bark that puts the cattle under a spell, or from a BC that has carried on continuous psychological warfare on them cus' it's afraid of being kicked. What do you say to that? In conclusion, what I believe. 1 - Training before purchase, can help, however it bulges the investment, does not guarantee no cattle harassed. 2 - Correct handling by owner, the dog will learn from his mates, will receive the correct orders and will stop when asked. 3 - Incorrect handling or neglect: chances are, probably what those stereotyped depictions were here to tell. I would never blame a dog, I would always blame the man who owns him... the poor thing.

I can't say myself I have good regards for administrations whatever they are. Always sluggish, politicised and unfair.

Here is an analysis of the situation (attached) - Would the Koolie slowly take over? Or is there, not a breed or training issue (as work dogs are sold trained and ready to work) but a handling issue caused by lack of knowledge from new generation farmers? One thing I'm worried about this shift and the taste of our steaks, is that the dogs are using force to move the cows, being physical (ACD) and psychological (Border Collie), which of the 2 makes the tastiest? Me wonda. My questions were: Here is a question I would like a thorough deep research about, or several questions around the same subject. I have noticed that it's been a while now, in Australia, Border Collies have replaced Australian Cattle Dogs in beef farming. It's frustrating as this dog is actually made to herd sheep but it's attitude as actually preferred by farmers for some reason. So according to reputable sources (if you have to go on social media or forums, if it's necessary, please separate them from the reputable sources, as the latter sometimes is not worth of trust so we will keep them as an alternative stock of information): 1) Why do some Australian farmers now do prefer Border collies or some type of random cross breed rather than the ACD? 2) What is the the percentage of stations that do not use ACD any longer? 3) Why would they also use dogs that I can't recognise what breed they are? 4) Is there one or multiple other breeds that are used instead of our Bluey? 4.1- If so what are they and why? 5) Are there any issues that farmers complain about, according to the new breed they have chosen? It seems to be a new thing, not sure how long it's been but indeed, at shows it's all about the Border Collie, so if you can find the date of when that shift happened it would be of interest, at least for you so look for this first and then concentrate the questions onto the date it happened until today. Only Australian farmers, no matter what size the station is, family or else. Trend_ From Heelers to Collies and Crossbreeds.pdf

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Oh nah, look, I don't require a particular breed myself as in terms of training I seem to be actually well over the average, so basically any pup that shows what I'm after is a perfect base. It seems that the Australian response to the Border Collie is the Koolie, it won't take too long for the ANKC to recognise them as a breed so farmers will start switching to that breed, problem solved isn't it?

Yeah, my boy is happy to walk along with us on the farm as I'm helping mates with their water system, at the end of the day we go off road driving, when he runs in front of us. Crossing several groups of cows, horses he interacts, learns and gets his intensive training session. I have nothing against border collies taking over, that's a trend I cannot really help with, while if you're a breeder as I have understood, you could. Here is some breeding ideas I got from my mate in order to get an Australian dog that is at least as good as the Border Collie, smarter, low ego, softer touch: Start by tightening the ACD’s line with proven working types, then trial crossings with Kelpie for stamina (yes, once more) and lighter-footed yard control, Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog to lock in endurance and heat tolerance, or a touch of Border Collie only for smoother cast and command range, keeping no more than a quarter Collie blood so you don’t lose the ACD’s grit. These crosses should aim for quieter pressure, stronger eye, and longer stride while keeping that hard Aussie hide, bite, and weatherproof coat that make the ACD worth breeding here, not importing. Hope this found you well.

Oh yeah, I know that well, border collies are taking over on cattle work - if it suits farmers, and they seem to be conducting impressive quality team work - also I heard they reckon that they are even smarter that our cattle dogs! > The return of the brits by the backdoor hah? Right now, my job (I will self assign this, just like work dogs do without your consent) is to shed some light on questions people ask and (about my boxy head cattle dog) even though I have a good response, as I became a passionate about their story since I collected all pieces of the puzzle known around internet and accessible hard copies. However writing it down online will be of great interest not just for prospective owners, and also breeders (had one at the top of this thread showing lots of interest). Got some downtime today here in sunny Queensland and will revise the Australian History today on the ACD page (Wikipedia). And yeah, even though we humans sleep against eachother for comfort, we are all on our own in the end, inexorably deriving in the vast universe that has no end

I do. Heard it's complicated to stay within the modern lines of regulation as breeding stumpies is like playing with fire it seems. Thus to remember that a stumpy tail is a natural irregularity. This type canine as in, descent from wolves are supposed to have one, for reasons we aren't aware of, only them to know, unfortunately their English is generally limited to barking, so go find out.. improved balance is my best guess. And you're right, I mean, if my eye would catch the ones from a stumpy that'd fulfil my need of a work dog, I would certainly disregard its minor irregularity as it'd be in full working capacities. Meanwhile I don't support continuity of ASTCD. First of all because it's a bit of a pretentious mouthful to pronounce, can't even say it, and the other because I don't understand why some would break the piggy bank deliberately to own one, but that's just me. Because to my modest understanding, they have the same genetic patrimony of an ACD and have followed pretty much the exact same lineage, provides the exact same features and also they work cattle by nature. Differences are negligible to us. Why is the ANKC ignoring the major differences between an ACD (5 types) and a CDoA (only 3)? Regular passer-by's aren't. So, would you like a recording of the next one that comes asking so I can prove my point perhaps?

To date, I still fail to find any differences behind those 2, long and short tail, that's paddock talk. I know that stumpies are pricing on the high side, however I believe it's just posh and clumsy marketing. Feel.free to check out what kennel clubs say about them. They say short tails don't get caught in gates and also say they have better balance in a tight space. Thing is, if I had a tail myself, I reckon it'd improve my balance drastically, look at kangaroos for example, why is this animal has the reputation to be an excellent boxer? Because they would never kiss the mat, simple. Let me ask you one thing. The pups and grown ups you had then as protectors, were they Bagust's or Bentley's strains?

Thanks for sharing that poem and your thoughts, they were a good read and I get where you’re coming from. What I’d like to add before closing this discussion is that today the official stance from dog societies is to treat the Australian Cattle Dog and the Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog as two separate breeds. From my research and what I’ve seen in the field, they both carry the same genetic foundation. I recognise two strains within the breed, but I don’t accept the ASTCD as truly separate. Iris Heal, despite her place in history, achieved her result through heavy inbreeding between Bagust stock, not from the OG stumpy type. The Bentley or Queensland strain carries distinct features that set it apart from the Bagust and Kaleski lines, and people need to understand that this old nineteenth century patrimony was never meant to be a pet. Without work and purpose, those dogs lose themselves.

It seems to be not showing on this specimen, this is just an example. A lot of them have that white marking on the top of the head indeed, I would say a majority from my observations. However, would please be able to give us more instructions about what you know about the Bentley's mark? I'm just a tradesman and not a dog specialist, just got a bluey with me, that's all, I'm basically nobody against the dog society. That said I don't even socialise with dog owners when we got to the park as usually I get depressed if I extend our visit that way... so I just keep walking around like it says clearly on the park rules (to avoid the dogs to get territorial with one area of the park) I know that Bentley didn't actually draw a mark on his dogs, but here again, you can't pretend to be putting together an ACD breed chart without mentioning the Bentley's mark or can ye I believe It’s part of the story whether it’s genetics or just legend.

If this is your view I can only respect it. And listen, have a wonderful day.

Got only the image export clean - that'll do. You will find the commands to navigate the work at your leisure within the window - enjoy! < Preview Origins of ACD 6.0 >

Getting close to happiness - will post latest draft later

Forge em up!