Lil Miss LeiLani Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Hi again.. Sorry, we are quite confused at the moment. We have Zorro, who is child agressive - more than likely fear agressive. Basically, he never had a problem with children, & I don't know if its coincidence, but we caught the kids from next door throwing things over the fence, and found food scraps, rocks, sticks, bottles etc in our yard. So we figured that they were obviously teasing the dog, or perhaps something might have hit him. One behaviourist said that Zorro wouldn't have seen this as being attacked, but as treats. This makes sense too, but we just don't know. We've been getting mixed messages from trainers & behaviourists, and thought if any of you have had a dog with this problem & have rectified the problem, what were you told to do and how did it work??? We had a behavouirist come out and he suggested we meet with the kids every couple of days, and have them throw treats to Zorro, as he needs to face his fear. This made sense to us, however others suggested this could make things worse as if he is fear agressive, he shouldn't be put in this situation too soon. This made sense too !! Other people told us the behaviourist who came out has no idea, so i wrote them an email this morning asking for a refund, and the owner and head behaviourist there has offered to come out, but agrees with her employees method. I haven't accepted yet.... We are just so confused & don't know now. Thanks everyone.... Christal & Zorro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 K9: choose one very qualified & experienced behaviourist, have them design you a program & ask questions until you understand it, then stick to it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 We had Bonnies come out, and he told us to get the help of the kids next door and get them to give him treats etc, so he would see this as kids being good. I've emaied Bonnies & the owner, Val Bonney, has offered to come out to see us and develop a plan, as she believes what her Trainer told us, would help immensely. I've heard that she is highly respected in the dog behavioural world. Is that correct ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 C&Z: I've heard that she is highly respected in the dog behavioural world. Is that correct ? K9: well I have never used her lol... But I would recommend Jane Harper in your area... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 Thanks Steve. I have contacted Jane, and as Val Bonney has offered to come out (as well as give us a refund) i thought to perhaps have her come out to see what she could do, as its not going to cost us anymore. Either that, or get Jane or Grant the Pawman - as they both come recommended. Its so hard to know who is good, and who isn't. Word of Mouth is the best advertising, and all these 3 (inc Val Bonney) have come recommended. Its weird... Val says to confront the fear is best, whereas both Jane & Grant say its not a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 K9: problem you face is that going the wrong way with a dog like this can render them unable to rehabilitated in the future... You just dont get endless shots at this. I would be going with Jane or Grant personally... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 Thats very true Steve. Thats why we want to make the right decision. Its just hard getting there, thats all. Do you know much of Grant ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 K9: spoke to him via email & worked with a few people that said he was good, thats about all. Have done quite a bit of work with Jane though, when people travel to see me from Qld, she does the follow ups as required for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 I guess everyone has different opinions on how to correct problems - depending on the dog of course. I just wish it was an easier process. Val has offered to come over, and if the problem is still tehre after 6wks of us sticking to it, then obviously we should try elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 (edited) I guess everyone has different opinions on how to correct problems - depending on the dog of course.I just wish it was an easier process. Val has offered to come over, and if the problem is still tehre after 6wks of us sticking to it, then obviously we should try elsewhere. Personally C&Z if you do not feel you will get anywhere with those methods and she agrees with the trainers original assessment (that: "If they (kids next door) are unwilling to work with you, I have a concern that Zorro may never overcome his aggression with children and you may need to look at alternative housing for him.") then maybe you should go with your gut feeling. You obviously know who I recommend working with the rest is up to you ETA: I would never force a fear aggressive dog into a situation where they are fearful, as others have said. Edited November 5, 2007 by husky87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 My gut doesn't know what to do for this !! I feel that we should get her opinion as we paid for her service, and I can understand their idea of thinking... however I"m also keen on trying someone else who might suggest something different, as perhaps there could be an underlying problem that isn't as simple as fear agression. Especially now that i've been told that Zorro would have seen the things coming over the fence as gifts - not attacks !! Makes my whole way of thinking changed ! Errr !! so frustrating !!!! I don't know what to do. He is usually such a good dog. Perhaps its our fault as we didn't socialise him enough with children when he was young. Perhaps its something the kids have done that we don't know of. Who knows !! How to correct a problem that you don't know how it started can't be easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 C&Z: Especially now that i've been told that Zorro would have seen the things coming over the fence as gifts - not attacks !! How on earth would a dog view a rock thrown over the fence as a "gift"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 I know.... but perhaps he saw the food as gifts, and the empty drink bottle - as one of his fave toys is a drink bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 At this point I'm not really sure it matters. It is impossible for anyone here on DOL to tell you what to do as no-one has seen his behaviour or your capabilities/relationship with him. All anyone here can do is recommend trainers for you, as they have. The next decision has to be yours. As someone said, by constantly changing tactics you could be doing more harm than good. I would be wary of any trainer advising you (and whatever competancy you may or may not have) to use children before they have seen his behaviour. My experience with my own FA dog, was that we had to work through many things which improved his trust in me to deal with his issues with children. But my dog is different to yours & the advice I was given worked for me, I didn't muck around and followed it exactly. I say, if you have any doubts about a trainer, keep looking, regardless of what you have spent so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 Thanks Vickie. The trainer who did come out "ian" saw Zorro with the kids, and recommending meeting with the kids and getting them to throw treats to Zorro so he gets used to them. I have since had an email from Val (owner) saying the info Ian gave us was correct & would help with our problem. As she has now offered to come out to help and assess the situation, I thought maybe its worth giving her a try, as she is more experienced than Ian - she might have another way of handling the situation. She said to try it for 6wks and if it didn't work, we could contact someone else. In which case we will contact the Pawman or Jane Harper, as recommended. At this stage, i am probably leaning more towards the Pawman as he lives locally, and offers 12months ongoing support. Whereas Jane lives on the other side of Brisbane, about 1.5hrs away. My question is - should I give Val a go - or go straight to the pawman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 (edited) Jane Harper actually works in Brisbane though doesn't she? Its possible that she could see you on the way to or from work....call her and ask. I'm no behaviourist but I wonder if the suggestion of having children throw food to the dog in this instance is wise? I wonder if the reason for your dogs aggression might have something to do with the fact that the neighbour children were unpredictable to the dog in that the dog never knew if it was food or a rock that was going to be thrown...no clear pattern as to whether what was going to be thrown was a reinforcer or a punisher and there was no clue to the dog either which it would be or how he could control which it would be through his actions. Think of it like this....you know a person who everytime you see them they say "Put out your hand" and you do. Sometimes when you put out your hand they put a chocolate in it. Other times they stick a pin into the palm of your hand. You never know which it is going to be and they are very unpredictable....how long would it take you to not want to put out your hand and want to avoid that person. I wonder if having children throwing anything at your dog is just going to increase his fear? And is this going to reduce his trust in you because you're subjecting him to it....not protecting him from it? ETA: I don't mean the above to constitute advice because I'm not in any position to do that. Just wondering about how the dog might percieve having kids throw food at him in this situation. Edited November 5, 2007 by Rom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 It also goes to the possibility of the dog actually receiving a reward for demonstrating fear behaviour (aggression or no). Much depends on the methodology used at the time. The stimulus needs to be controlled. The reaction threshold distance needs to be controlled. The timing of reward needs to be controlled. IMO, there is so much more to it than merely having kids throw treats, which if not carefully structured also has the possibility of being perceived by the dog as a threat, as Rom says. This wouldn't be good for the dog and certainly not good for the kids (or kids thereafter). IMO it is not so much about "what the kids do" as "what you do". First - the dog needs to learn to defer to you in times of stress. He can only do that if he perceives you as a leader upon which he can depend. Then he'll be in the best frame of mind possible to trust in your government during behaviour modification training. Using children as 'decoys' upon which to work up a dog's behaviour needs to be handled and orchestrated very carefully (IMO). Safety of the children must be held paramount and I like to presume thoughts of this have already been considered and catered for both during and inbetween behaviour training sessions. BUT .... once more it must be said (even if only to direct it at myself ) that we cannot advise over the net. Only the OP and the OP's selected trainer has observed and assessed the dog's behaviour and temperament and that is one huge step ahead from the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Thanks Vickie.The trainer who did come out "ian" saw Zorro with the kids, and recommending meeting with the kids and getting them to throw treats to Zorro so he gets used to them. I have since had an email from Val (owner) saying the info Ian gave us was correct & would help with our problem. As she has now offered to come out to help and assess the situation, I thought maybe its worth giving her a try, as she is more experienced than Ian - she might have another way of handling the situation. She said to try it for 6wks and if it didn't work, we could contact someone else. In which case we will contact the Pawman or Jane Harper, as recommended. At this stage, i am probably leaning more towards the Pawman as he lives locally, and offers 12months ongoing support. Whereas Jane lives on the other side of Brisbane, about 1.5hrs away. My question is - should I give Val a go - or go straight to the pawman? Christal - as I said before - as Val agrees with the assessment made with her trainer I would not be giving her another go as it is sounds like it is not a program you want to work with. As said before being near children at this stage will do Zorro more harm than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Miss LeiLani Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 I've spoken to Val & told her it is not possible to involve the kids next door. I have also asked her for a refund. She said that she would like to see us & will refund the money, so we have decided to do this, to see what she says. She may assess the situation differently after seeing Zorro. She was only going by reading Ian's report. She may assess differently, so we'll see what she advises. She had the same problem with her border collie, so she has dealt with this before. Failing that, we will be contacting Jane or Grant - we're still not sure on which one. Possibly Jane as she does come highly recommended, however so does Grant. Grant also offers 12mths support, I'm not sure if Jane does. Husky87 - do you know what she includes in her package ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 (edited) I've spoken to Val & told her it is not possible to involve the kids next door. I have also asked her for a refund. She said that she would like to see us & will refund the money, so we have decided to do this, to see what she says. She may assess the situation differently after seeing Zorro. She was only going by reading Ian's report. She may assess differently, so we'll see what she advises. She had the same problem with her border collie, so she has dealt with this before.Failing that, we will be contacting Jane or Grant - we're still not sure on which one. Possibly Jane as she does come highly recommended, however so does Grant. Grant also offers 12mths support, I'm not sure if Jane does. Husky87 - do you know what she includes in her package ? I don't know if Jane puts a time limit on her support. When I contacted her, we had one training session. She then emailed me a training program for Micha and since the start of this year, has offered me constant support via email. She even helped me with my beagle, via email even though Micha was the dog we paid to have the training session with. I don't really look at trainers in terms of the package they offer, what is important to me is the support, knowledge and experience they can use to help me fix my dogs issues. ETA: Jane's own dogs came from severely abusive backgrounds and have had aggression problems. She has a lot of experience dealing with FA dogs. Edited November 5, 2007 by husky87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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