dancinbcs

Well done Minigirl -- once they begin on solids, it all seems more hopeful. Hope you have success.

Thanks for that info Wunda. :)

dancingbcs, I have had a couple of pups which died, and after death it was possible to open the mouth enough to see the cleft which had not been visible in life ... couldn' t open the mouth enough

And it is something most vets have never seen unless they deal with a lot of breeders who ask for an autopsy when they lose a puppy.

Other possibilities with this puppy if it can eat thicker food is laryngeal paralysis or megaesophagus or some similar congenital defect of the throat. Google them and see if the symptoms match. If they do talk to the vet about it asap. Dogs with these conditions are at huge risk of inhaling liquid and developing pneumonia. They are usually fed wet food with the head expended up, a piece at a time and are not allowed access to water, ever. Keeping a dog like this alive is a full time job but apart from the food/water aspect can be happy and appear normal.

But when we only had the main register you didn't need to register every pup in a litter. Many breeders would sell pets unregistered and only register a few. My first pyr was like this. I was buying a pet so she was unregistered (I was given a hand written 10 generation pedigree). It was only with the intro of the limited register that the requirement to register all pups was introduced.

When I started it was very unusual for breeders in NSW and Vic to not register all puppies and sell them on main. In my first decade in dogs, I only met two people at obedience trials who had unregistered dogs from registered breeders. Everyone had main register, whether they showed or not and none of the breeders who mentored me ever mentioned not registering every puppy. All progeny of my stud dogs were registered and sold on main as well. In those days lots of pet bitches had litters for their breeders and dogs in pet homes were used at stud to top breeders bitches. It really did help to keep the gene pool open.

Some clefts in the soft palate cannot be seen in a live puppy. My vet found some in the hundreds of autopsies she did for her PHD in Puppy Mortality. In some the cleft can only be found at autopsy when the jaw is cut through and opened up. It isn't possible to open a live puppy's mouth that far.

I once saw a 4 week old litter that were pts due to aggression at that age. Purebred mum who had been mated to a purebred dog then the local, very aggressive, street roaming, mongrel terrier jumped a 7' fence and mated her as well. DNA tests samples were taken at 3 weeks to check parentage but by 4 weeks, before results were back they were obviously crossbred. They were like feral puppies and unable to be handled at all due to such a high level of aggression, fought savagely with each other all day and the normally devoted dam wanted nothing to do with them. After consultation with a very experienced trainer, the whole litter was pts. Thankfully I have only ever seen this the once and it was scary to realise puppies could be born like that.

If she is not showing any signs of distress you can leave her for another couple of days without any worry.

There is nothing dangerous happening so nothing to rush to the vets for.

Very dangerous advice. In my breed they never go over their due date without it being due to a major problem. Primary inertia can happen in any breed so if they are not in labour by the due date they should be monitored by a vet and have a caesar at the first sign of puppy distress. It is always safest to ensure that you actually know if they are pregnant or not by ultrasound or x-ray. With modern vet practices, guesswork and risking bitches should be a thing of the past.

Sometimes the level hardly moves for a week or even two, then it can suddenly change very quickly. The dogs just don't read the books about what is supposed to happen. When it comes to bitches in season almost anything is possible. I have known of them to be ready on day 2 and out by day 3 and yet others weren't ready until day 27. Had a bitch here for a mating that was only ready for a couple of hours before going out again. I have seen the prog rise steadily then plateau for a week before starting again and then there are the split seasons when they don't ovulate until the second part.

I cannot believe anyone would lean over a fence like that of a yard with a dog in it. I have owned several dogs who I have no doubt would have bitten anyone who came over the fences into the back yard. Even if the neighbours lean't slightly over for a chat with us the dogs would be agitated. If anyone had reason to lean further over the fence, I would have locked the dogs inside. These same dogs could be taken to meet the public days and be patted by strangers, hugged by babies, etc for hours and would welcome any visitor that we invited into the house. Many dogs are very territorial of their yard and if it was an intruder thinking of jumping the fence, you would want them to be.

I have also had skin broken when playing with dogs and even training hyped up dogs. If the dog in this case had grabbed at the pruning shears and got the woman's arm instead, I have no doubt that the skin would be broken.

Never heard of it and there is certainly nothing in the current NSW companion animal act or the new proposals.

These are the only regulations for Lithgow.

Lithgow Council

Never heard of it and there is certainly nothing in the current NSW companion animal act or the new proposals.

These are the people they need to contact. Training a puppy for this type of work is not a do it yourself project.

Assistance Dogs Aust

I can see what Dogs Q are trying to do and that is return to the days when everything was sold on main register and most people got into showing and breeding after buying the puppy. It usually never entered their head until the puppy started to grow. Many bitch owners bred a litter first from their pet bitch under the guidance of her breeder and then got the show bug with their first home bred puppy. This is where most breeders started out. We do need a lot more registered breeders but we need good ones who will be happy to be guided by the experienced ones. We need a lot more breeding small numbers of quality puppies rather than less people churning out puppies like livestock. Getting more people to show is a much bigger problem. Until they fix the ways shows are now conducted, nothing will change there. Newbies used to be able to start showing with a good dog and win, that doesn't happen any more. The judges and hierarchy get all defensive when the problems are raised. If they don't stop and listen they will completely kill dog showing in this country.

I just don't get what having a vet look at the puppies has to do with anything. I vet won't know if blue eyes are acceptable in a breed or not. They don't understand breed specifications so how will they decide which puppies should be limit or main. The limit register was brought in to stop puppies being exported and to stop anyone breeding from a dog with a disqualifying fault as specified in some breed standards,not to restrict bloodlines. I hate the way breeders "protect" their lines. If someone hadn't shared their lines with them they would never have been able to start breeding. No one owns bloodlines, they belong to the breed and restricting them completely can lead to what happened with Stumpies. It got to a point that there was only one registered breeder who would not sell a registered bitch to anyone. If the register hadn't been opened, the breed would have become extinct.

My thought is that it is always better for breeders to breed with better lines no matter what they are breeding for. If they never breed good puppies they have no idea what they are supposed to be breeding. More education of breeders before they get a prefix is needed along with keeping them in line re overpricing and not health testing. Maybe in consultation with the breed clubs they could set annual recommended prices ranges for each breed so the public know when they are being ripped off and have an available list of recommended health tests for each breed. Getting this basic info is just about impossible in most breeds. There was a purebred puppy of a colour listed as highly undesirable (note not a disqualification) in their breed standard, advertised this week for $20,000. What sort of message does that send about registered breeders? This breeder is listed here on DOL. I would also suggest that the very small percentage of breeders producing more than 4 litters a year should have to justify what they are doing for the future of their breed to the board of directors. Those few breeding quality dogs would do this easily. Those breeding all limit register pets should have to lift their game or lose their prefix. All of these suggestions would do more for purebred dogs than the proposal by DQ. If showing could return to judging just to the breed standard and nothing else, new showies would be easy to encourage and therefore more breeders would appear.

In my breed there ar so many dogs who don not comply with the breed standard based in colour. In health terms they would qualify to be on the MR. Nearly five years ago, my pick bitch was ian incorrect colour so I had no choice to register her on the LR and have her desexed. Because of her colour, she could never have been shown. If I bred her today, I would do the same again as that is the breed standard. A vet would clear her as healthy. So do we need to take the breed standard along to the vet and say, this dog needs to be registered as LR because of the colour? And do we need to take a copy of the breed standard and even the extended standard for when we get our vet certificate?

Dogs qld answer to this: " Register it to the closest colour" so we are having all these unrecognised colours to our breed standard being registered incorrectly on the main register so they can be bred with. Queensland also has a high percentage of breeders and new breeding coming in breeding for colour as they can get up to $800 more per puppy compared to the standard black and white.

So with the above, for those breeding against the standard, would a vet support the limit register for all those colour breed pups because while they may be vet healthy they do not conform to the standard? (Because according to our standard, they should be LR anyway).

There is no mention in the BC breed standard that any colours are a disqualification and all colours used to be main registered as their correct colours and bred from. Those not in the breed standard, if shown, had their colour considered a fault, like any other fault. In my book something as cosmetic as colour is much less of a fault than a bad bite, cow hocks, flat withers or any other structural fault. At the moment you can main register a dog that is a complete mess structurally, so long as it is a listed colour. Keep in mind that all colours and patterns in the breed are perfectly acceptable in every other country in the world. So no colour is against the breed standard, most have just not been listed by omission. About 15 years ago, without any consultation the to breed clubs, the ANKC installed a new computer system and loaded in the all the colours listed in the breed standards for all breeds. They then decided that only those colours could be registered as main register so they have created the problem and the states just advise to register the dogs as the closest colour if you want them on main register. It is an absolutely stupid regulation to disqualify dogs from main registration based on something as irrelevant as colour. It confirms to the public that purebred dogs are all about appearance when they should be about sound health and structure as well as breed type. The cosmetic points of colours and markings should be way down the list of importance and definitely should not be the criteria to breed from but neither should they be a criteria to disqualify them from main registration.

As to the proposal in Qld that makes no sense either. Vets don't have a clue if a dog matches breed standards. It would however be a good idea for breeders to have to give a full written reason why they wish to limit register each puppy with reference to why it doesn't match the standard. Maybe some of them would be forced to read the standard that way. Those who keep breeding and sell everything on limit are contributing nothing to the future of the breeds and therefore are against the COE. The key to knowing what people will do with puppies is to get to know them first. The current trend for online questionnaires is very worrying as buyers have time to work out answers rather than asking the questions in person so they have to answer on the spot. Too many breeders rely on the online replies and a couple of phone calls and only let buyers visit when they come to collect the puppy. It saves time but doesn't allow you to really get to know them. I always had buyers come at least twice before collecting their puppy. If they lived locally I had them visit every week from 4 weeks on. The only buyer that every let me down came highly recommended but my gut feeling as the weeks went on was to say I didn't have anything suitable. Luckily I managed to buy the puppy back at 5 months and get him out of a very nasty marriage breakup situation.

For anyone who needs to get tablets into a dog and cannot bring themselves to stick fingers down the dog's throat, try a pill popper. They are marvelous and so easy to use. I have used one on a cat and they make dosing cats so much easier and safer. Have never needed one for a dog but they would work just as well.

Another vote for Rosehip Vital Canine and possibly green lipped mussel extract as well. Acupuncture is also very helpful.

The funniest lifetime fear in a dog that I have heard of was a former colleagues purebred Maltese who was terrified of bacon . He would tremble and run and hide as soon as he could smell it or if he saw anyone take it from the fridge. Apparently he first freaked at it spitting in a pan and then associated the smell of it with the fear. He was not at all a nervous dog except when it came to bacon.

Good news that he has been checked by vets familiar with clefts in the soft palate. They aren't very common and a lot of vets would never have seen them unless they deal with a lot of breeders.

thankyou all, you're a big help to me.

I've got her at home for now. The xrays look pretty awful of her neck and spine. Brett the vet just put them up on the light board and he didn't need to say anything, I could immediately see the problem areas and they look nasty. At his suggestion though, I've taken her home with Meloxicam to try for about 4 days. If she's still uncomfortable we're going to try Tramal but if she cannot get relief with that I wont make her endure the pain.

Try acupuncture 3 times a week to start with. I kept a BC going for about 3 extra years with acupuncture. The dog chiro used to shake his head in wonder at how she could still walk with what he could feel in her spine but she got around fine. After I had her put down he said he would have loved to have had her spine to study. She started the acupuncture 3 times a week, then we gradually reduced it until she was only getting done once every few weeks. As she slowed down I would take her back and she would bounce out of the treatment obviously feeling so much better. She didn't need Metacam until her last year and I only gave her wings when she had a stroke at nearly 15.

If the teats are hard, massage them every few hours until they are soft and keep a close eye on them. The cabbage leaves will help as well to prevent mastitis with just two feeding. Drop the bitch's food back a bit to slow her milk production but it is not all abnormal to have abundant milk before the litter is born. I would still be concerned about a cleft palate in the bigger puppy as clefts at the back of the soft palate are nearly impossible to see in a live puppy unless the vet is very experienced in dealing with them. Bad bite problems can prevent puppies being able to latch on but I have never heard of it causing milk to come out the nose.

Inch long would be too small for anything but very small dogs, I'd be worried about mine trying to swallow something that size whole. I'd consider using it as a treat if the price was OK but I refuse to buy in to any 'advertising' that claims something horn-like is automatically good for your sexlife. :laugh:

I think Casowner is talking about some sort of soft treat made from the velvet, not the actual hard antler but it isn't very clear. If they need to be refrigerated they cannot be the antlers as these are best kept very dry. I get my antlers from that link but they only have them occasionally so I usually get a year's supply of 8 each December. I would love to be able to get them with the velvet on as my dogs are crazy about it when they find a little bit on the antlers that haves't been removed.

I cannot see any problem converting the laundry to a dog room provided it is completely puppy proof, has a bed, toys, water etc. Provided the puppy has had a good run in the yard, maybe done some training and toileted, it should be fine in the laundry for 4 hours. I would use a baby gate, rather than shut a solid door on it so it is more like a large pen than an isolated room. If you can then install a dog door leading to a small snake proof run, even better, provided the yard is totally safe from theft. I usually keep puppies confined out of sight when I am not home until they are about 6 months. I have known of a few to be stolen from what would have seemed a totally secure yard.

Hi everyone. I have spoken to my mentor and she has since had a necropsy performed on the puppy - the results are really of no use. From what I gather, the vet was unable to find any indications of congenital issues or any signs of prenatal sepsis. One possibility was that the placenta had detached only a few days before the actual labour. But I always though that there would be indications of this occurring? A discharge, stress, or something along those lines, but I could be wrong.

As I mentioned earlier, the puppys were very developed, so its almost as if their is an issue with the mother, not being able to bring the puppys to full term.

One exercise that MAY be worth doing is an elective caesar, where the aim would be to deliver the pups while they are still alive. There were no problems during the actual labour, but the caesar would be used to retrieve them a few days before she is due. There would be a lot of ultrasounds required during this process to make sure the puppies are as close to the actual due date as possible. The downside of this of course, is subjecting her bitch to a caesar. It is a routine surgery, but at the end of the day, its still surgery.

Anyway, thoughts, opinions, comments???

Thanks.

I would mate her again to a dog from a completely different line and check her progesterone levels to determine the exact day of ovulation. Avoid all chemicals. Prog test each week during the pregnancy. 58 days post ovulation, prog test her every day until the level drops. If she hasn't whelped within 24 hours, do the caesar or do an elective caesar as soon as the prog level drops, just to be sure the puppies survive. Of course then they won't know if she would have gone into labour on her own. It could also be worth checking her thyroid level before she is mated. A friend had just had a healthy litter on the 4th attempt with her girl after the vet supplemented her for thyroid. Problem bitches do not always pass on the problems to their offspring so it is worth trying the next generation. If it happens again, that is the time you stop breeding that line.

Mine detest the "tasty chews" and I can never disguise them in anything so I tried changing to Milbemax tablets. They are exactly the same drug as Interceptor and must have little or no smell as I can halve them and roll in little balls of mince and the dogs never even hesitate to eat them. I feed several small empty meat balls one at a time then the one with the tablet and another empty one straight after. the idea is to get them gulping them down without chewing. It has worked every time on my BC and super fussy eater JS. When I was using the chews, even if I cut them into small pieces they could smell them in the food and would refuse to touch it.

The brilliant puppy school I have used is held indoors with owners sitting but it is in a large, purpose built indoor training hall that is also used to train for doggy dancing and is big enough for a full dancing routine. The difference is that it is run by one of the most experienced trainers in the state, Luci Ellem at Camarna kennels. Puppies do not get to play at all, they are there to learn to focus ont he owner in the presence of the other puppies and people. Owners sit on chairs, with their puppies at least a metre apart and any puppy that is disruptive is put further away. Exercises are explained then practiced, one at a time. Children of the owners are encouraged to come and they are swiftly trained in correct behaviour, along with the puppies. The owners are taught how to train their puppies, get their attention, keep them focused and teach them to be calm. The basis of all training that will follow.

I have always used adjustable martingale collars on all my BCs so they can never twist out of them like they can with a flat collar if they are startled by something. After taking months to lead train my first one I have learnt to teach them to heel without a lead first. I train babies for no more than a minute or two, many times a day with different commands and by 12 weeks they know most of them. 15 minutes is way too long for a baby to concentrate at one time. With food treats held low beside my leg they are lured to heel next to me in the yard. After a few days when they have got the hang of it, I put the lead on and repeat the heeling lessons as if the lead isn't there. Only when I can walk around in all directions with the puppy watching me and staying close to my leg, do I venture out of the yard. Then do the same training in other areas so the puppy learns to obey your commands not just the lead. Also teach the other commands of watch, come, stand, drop and sit in that order to make training more interesting. No matter what you are teaching, the lead is purely there to stop them wandering off, not to guide them at all. BCs are super smart and learn with hardly any repetitions compared to other breeds so try to never teach them something you didn't mean to as it is harder to undo than to do it right first.

I have never had a bitey BC baby as when they first try it around 5 weeks, I scruff them like their mother would and growl at them and I have never had one need more than two scruffs. I consider biting feet to be very dangerous as it is so easy to step or fall onto a puppy that is attacking your shoes or ankles. As soon as the puppy goes for you ankles grab him by the scruff, not too hard and push him to the ground while growling at him as if you are really angry with him and hold him there for at least a minute until he starts to squirm. Let him know in no uncertain terms that the behaviour is not acceptable. Borders instinctively want to please you so most given this treatment get the message very quickly and don't want you to be angry with them again.

Teaching any new thing must be done with all positive training with lots of rewards to shape behaviour. Any negativity will set them back as they really do want to do whatever you are trying to teach them. Stubbornness is not a Border trait at all. If they don't do what you want, you didn't explain it right so blame yourself as the trainer an work out a better way to get the right response. Teaching them not to display instinctive behaviour like biting though does require some negative reinforcement and I always stick to what their mums do to pull them into line. For most Borders a growl will suffice to let them know they are doing wrong and you can see them cringe in response.

Border puppies get full of energy at times every day and just have to act the fool and do zoomies when it happens. Let him be as crazy as he wants so long as he doesn't bite and when he has had a good run around, let him rest before starting any training. Also remember to praise and reward him for relaxing and lying still as that is a skill that active working dogs need to learn.

Was there any chance that the litter could have been born later than 63 days post ovulation? In many breeds it is not ok to go over by even a day or you can lose the whole litter. This is why we prog test now so you have an exact due date and if they are not showing signs of labour by that date, intervention may be needed. I have a breed that usually whelp up to 4 days early but if they go over it is nearly always a problem that needs a caesar to get the puppies out alive.